P
Paris_Blues
Guest
How do I answer this:
- Status
M
martino
Guest
tell him that you agree that we are all saved by grace and that Jesus Christ alone paid the price for our redemption.
there is no arguement on this point! he purposely loaded it with a bunch of other anti-Catholic rhetoric but this is essentially what he is saying and it is no different from what the Catholic Church teaches.
there is no arguement on this point! he purposely loaded it with a bunch of other anti-Catholic rhetoric but this is essentially what he is saying and it is no different from what the Catholic Church teaches.
J
johnshelby
Guest
martino is right… plus, the Bible is the final authority, as such,
since tradition cannot be in conflict with scripture,
for the Holy Spirit would not lead us against the inspired word of
God…
since tradition cannot be in conflict with scripture,
for the Holy Spirit would not lead us against the inspired word of
God…
T
Tom
Guest
Paris Blues:
DRBO.ORG:
DRBO.ORG:
There is just so much in one “question” it’s like a scattergun. Let’s break down the statement.
Ya know, I’ve read the Bible several times and not once have I seen this claim in the Bible. Where does it say this is “The biggest issue”? To me this is minutia. In addition the Catholic Church is the “pillar and ground of the truth”
DRBO.ORG:
It’s the Church Not the Book that the Church protected, and produced that is the “pillar”. This in no way diminishes the Word of God in either written or oral form.
But, even if it is “The biggest issue”, how does the Catholic Church teaching differ? Sounds pretty much straight out of CCC
All Christians that I know give Jesus the “glory, the honor, the acknowledgment totally”, not just yours. The question is does your denomination really give Jesus all the honor? If Jesus tells you to do good works and you stubbornly refuse because of your incorrect reading of the writings of Paul, can you really say you’re honoring Jesus? Or are you following the teachings of man in following an erroneous interpretation of Paul? Paul is not referring to “good” work, as in “works” of Christian charity. He’s referring to “works” of the Law, those things required of the Jewish Law. Your church is following an erroneous interpretation if it thinks works of Christian charity are somehow against Scripture. You might want to review Matthew chap 25.
DRBO.ORG:
continued
T
Tom
Guest
Not being called to do “works” of Christian charity?
DRBO.ORG:
DRBO.ORG:
DRBO.ORG:
He’s not calling you to DO good works?
DRBO.ORG:
So tell me again, how do you profess to honor our Lord and savour, yet refuse to do His will?
T
Tom
Guest
Well, here at least I agree somewhat with what is being said, good works are indeed a byproduct of being a Christian in that when we do our “works” of Christian charity we are accepting the grace which God freely offers. Note that doing “works” of Christian charity does not earn the grace, it is our acceptance of that grace which is freely offered by God. It’s how we pick up our cross. You can choose not to accept His grace by not doing His will. He wont force you.
The problem here is you’re following the wrong “fathers” You’re following fathers who did not understand the writings of Paul, and took them entirely out of context. I suggest you read 2 Peter 3, 15-18.
DRBO.ORG:
God warned you, were ya listening?
Now you bring up an interesting subject, daily reading of Scriptures. The Catholic Church publishes a lectionary or schedule of readings so that if we follow these readings every day you will cover all of the Bible in a predetermined time frame. I use the three year lectionary. Now this is ALL of Scripture to include the deuterocanon and even those passages we have trouble with. How about we compare our lectionary with your churches? Does your church read ALL Scripture or just those parts it agrees with?
The Catholic Church follows this does yours?
M
MariaG
Guest
Posted by Paris Blues How do I answer this:
God Bless,
Maria
It becomes more “natural” each and every time, but each good work is a choice to accept the grace given and to follow Christ.The biggest issue is how is a man made righteous,
justified, saved according to holy scripture. The
Presbyterians hold and teach that Christ Jesus ALONE
“by grace through faith” saves!(Eph.2:8&9; Col. 1:11).
So does the Catholic Church
In the Presbyterian church and confessions Christ
Jesus is given the glory, the honor, the
acknowledgment totally,
most other denomination it’s
Christ plus … plus their works of some sort thereby
taking some of the honor and making less of the
accomplished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
:nope: Well, I am not sure about most but that is not true of the Catholic Church. If you understand it to be that way, you do not understand the teachings of the Catholic Church.
I cannot
stress this enough the Lord Jesus saves without the
aid of man in anyway possible.
True. God does not need our help in any way.
Good works are a
by-product of being a Christian, being Reformation
month, Martian Luther said, “an apple tree produces
apple NOT to become an apple tree, but b/c it IS an
apple tree” the same is true with Christians and why
they do good works; not to get save but b/c one is
saved.
I actually disagree with this. Good works are not a by product. Each and every good work, although the grace was given by God, and as such I take no credit for it, each work is saying YES to God, and reaffirming my faith. They do not spring naturally but are a conscious choice to choose God each and every time.
But whose interpretation of the Bible is the Final authority? Which man are you going to let interpret that “Final Authority” out of which so many denominations and interpretations have come?
God Bless,
Maria
R
RyanL
Guest
I typically post the first three canons of the Council of Trent (Session VI) and then ask them where they disagree with official Church teaching. Here are the canons:
**ON JUSTIFICATION ** **
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. **
** CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema. **
** CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.**
Restatement:
Canon I: We are not justified by our own works. Period. You cannot “earn” salvation. See the Pelagian and semi-Pelagian heresies (and take note of who put down those heresies).
Canon II: God’s grace does more than just help us live righteously more easily. It is *required *in order to live righteously and to be graciously rewarded with heaven. Period.
Canon III: Man cannot believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought without God. You cannot, on your own, “earn” justification. Period.
This usually forces them to take a step back and see if they really understand what the Church teaches, or if they only understand the caricature they were taught…
God Bless,
RyanL
**ON JUSTIFICATION ** **
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. **
** CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema. **
** CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.**
Restatement:
Canon I: We are not justified by our own works. Period. You cannot “earn” salvation. See the Pelagian and semi-Pelagian heresies (and take note of who put down those heresies).
Canon II: God’s grace does more than just help us live righteously more easily. It is *required *in order to live righteously and to be graciously rewarded with heaven. Period.
Canon III: Man cannot believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought without God. You cannot, on your own, “earn” justification. Period.
This usually forces them to take a step back and see if they really understand what the Church teaches, or if they only understand the caricature they were taught…
God Bless,
RyanL
M
Matt16_18
Guest
“Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?”
Luke 6:46
T
Tom
Guest
“Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?”
Luke 6:46
[/quote]
Amen
Luke 6:46
[/quote]
Amen
T
Tom
Guest
Wonderful post as usual. Thanks, I just stole your reference… LOL
L
look3467
Guest
Unmerited grace from the Father and by Jesus’s overcoming the world for us, are we saved.
Why do we have to be saved in the first place?
Notice how I said saved? And not save?
We cannot save ourselves period.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
All?…… Yes, all!
So if all have sinned, then who can save himself? None!
God had to do the saving and He did: In Jesus Christ.
How do I know when I am saved? When I come into the full knowledge of Jesus’ sacrifice for my sins and believe it to be true thus setting me free!
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
The good works of Christ is what saved us, not ours.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
It is Christ’s faith that justifies us, and His alone. His faith endured to the end, His faith overcame the world.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
That is why one places one’s own trust in Jesus, for He alone has saved us from ourselves.
Peace>>>AJ
Why do we have to be saved in the first place?
Notice how I said saved? And not save?
We cannot save ourselves period.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
All?…… Yes, all!
So if all have sinned, then who can save himself? None!
God had to do the saving and He did: In Jesus Christ.
How do I know when I am saved? When I come into the full knowledge of Jesus’ sacrifice for my sins and believe it to be true thus setting me free!
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
The good works of Christ is what saved us, not ours.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
It is Christ’s faith that justifies us, and His alone. His faith endured to the end, His faith overcame the world.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
That is why one places one’s own trust in Jesus, for He alone has saved us from ourselves.
Peace>>>AJ
T
Tom
Guest
Correct
If you are still in this world you are not yet saved. You are not saved until you have been judged and enter into heaven. It is a process not an event.
You will not come into this full knowledge on this earth. No one, today on this earth breathing the air has yet been saved. It isn’t until you have died (endure to the end) and been judged that you are either saved or damned. Up until your last breath you can accept or reject God. Or as you posted:
True, no knowledgeable Catholic would disagree. Good works do not “earn” your way into heaven, never did, never will. However NOT doing as Jesus our Lord instructed us is in fact rejecting Him, not doing the works He tells you to do you will not be saved. As Matt pointed out in Scripture:
Matt16_18 said:
Absolutely what the Catholic Church teaches.
Amen
B
Bishopite
Guest
The Calvinist view of monergism (that God does everything and we do nothing in cooperation with Him) it is false and unbiblical (2 Cor 6:1, 1Cor 3:9, Rom 8:28). These verses all use the terminology of cooperating with God by being His coworker, fellow workers, working together with which is synergistic language.
And then there is Mark 16:20
“And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with [sunergountos] them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it, Amen.” Here God worked with the apostles in their ministry of preaching.
2 Cor 6:1
"Working together with [sunergountes] him,then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain."
This person is saying that we can’t cooperate with God in our works done under grace. This person needs to reread Mt 25.
Martin Luther also said this about Mary mother of God.
“She is rightly called not only the Mother of the man, but also
**the Mother of God…**It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God” (Martin Luther, Weimar edition of Martin Luther’s works, English translated by J. Pelikan [Concordia: St. Louis], volume 24,107)
Would this person also agree with Martin Luther on Mary?
This is the classic Protestant fallacy of “the bible is the final authority.” Ask that person to show you where the bible says it is “the final authority” in Scripture? An authority sure we all agree but NEVER the only authority. Another mistake Protestants make is the false idea that you JUST read it and completely know what it says. If that were true then ALL Protestants would be unified in worship and doctrine, but we know they aren’t.
They say we don’t rely on a man nor men but WHOM I ASK interprets the Scriptures in their church?? The elders, board of deacons, the pastor? Some sort of authoritative body who are people interpret the Bible for them. Catholics have the Bible, (2 Tim 3:16), Apostolic Tradition (2 Thes 2:15,3:6, 1Cor 11:1) and the Magisterium (Mt 16:18,18:18, Acts 1:20).
Protestants quote this verse as though Paul just came along and showed the Thessalonians verses in the Bible from the Old Testament and they read them and BEHOLD they all agreed, hardly.
Paul reasoned with them from the Scriptures, he exegeted the Scriptures to them, he interpreted the Old Testament Scriptures to the Thessalonians so that they might see the truth of Christ; they were just more eager and godly in their reception of the gospel of Jesus Christ as compared to the Corinthians.
And finally, if this person really studies the Scriptures daily as did the Thessalonians then ask him/her to look up 1 Tim 3:15 and then tell you who is the pillar and support of the truth?
L
look3467
Guest
Hi, Tom
But consider this: 1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
“We know”?
2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
If the sentence of death was ours and Jesus took it from us, what death is he speaking about: Physical or spiritual?
We still die, right? Then it must be spiritual that we are raised from the dead, yet alive in the flesh. As the above verse indicates, spiritual death is what God delivered us from, by Jesus’ death.
2Co 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
“Abolished death”: “Hath brought life and immortality to light”, of which if we recognize it, we obtain it.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
The determining point of whether we have life (That given by Jesus by His Holy Spirit) or not is the cross: A pivotal point in the way we see the new Jerusalem.
The prophets of old desired to see what this salvation was all about: 1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Salvation is a gift given to mankind by The Father in Jesus Christ.
A gift if received is a life changing experience.
Today can be that day: 2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Today we can be sealed for eternal life: Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Salvation then is a promise begotten at the time of acknowledgment as the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to us.
We are a “new man”, as like the second Adam, spiritually born by the Holy Spirit indwelling in us.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Now is the time to be saved!
Peace>>>AJ
Saved has to be defined here. Are we looking for a physical saving to determine if we are really saved? If what you say is that as long as we are in the world we are not saved, then death would be the defining factor to our entering into heaven, would it not?
But consider this: 1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
“We know”?
2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
If the sentence of death was ours and Jesus took it from us, what death is he speaking about: Physical or spiritual?
We still die, right? Then it must be spiritual that we are raised from the dead, yet alive in the flesh. As the above verse indicates, spiritual death is what God delivered us from, by Jesus’ death.
2Co 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
“Abolished death”: “Hath brought life and immortality to light”, of which if we recognize it, we obtain it.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
The determining point of whether we have life (That given by Jesus by His Holy Spirit) or not is the cross: A pivotal point in the way we see the new Jerusalem.
The prophets of old desired to see what this salvation was all about: 1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Salvation is a gift given to mankind by The Father in Jesus Christ.
A gift if received is a life changing experience.
Today can be that day: 2Co 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Today we can be sealed for eternal life: Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Salvation then is a promise begotten at the time of acknowledgment as the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to us.
We are a “new man”, as like the second Adam, spiritually born by the Holy Spirit indwelling in us.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Now is the time to be saved!
Peace>>>AJ
M
MariaG
Guest
Sealed for eternal life?
How come then Paul was working out his salvation with fear and trembling if it can be a done deal for all time?
God Bless,
Maria
How come then Paul was working out his salvation with fear and trembling if it can be a done deal for all time?
God Bless,
Maria
M
MariaG
Guest
Brought to you by Scripture Catholic scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html
II.** We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation**
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5
Rom. 8:24
Rom. 10:1
Rom. 12:12
2 Cor. 3:12
Gal. 5:5
Eph. 4:4
Eph. 6:10-17
Phil. 3:11
Phil. 1:20
Col. 1:5
Col. 1:23
Col. 1:27
1 Thess. 1:3
1 Thess. 2:19
1 Thess. 5:8
2 Thess. 2:16
1 Tim. 1:1
1 Tim. 4:10
1 Tim. 5:5 -
1 Tim. 5:15
2 Tim. 2:10
Titus 1:2
Titus 2:13
Titus 3:7
Heb. 3:6
Heb. 6:11
Heb. 6:18
Heb. 6:19
Heb. 7:19
Heb. 10:23
Heb. 11:1
Heb. 12:1 –
Heb. 12:15
James 1:12
1 Peter 1:3
1 Peter 1:13
1 Peter 1:21
1 Peter 2:2
1 Peter 3:15
1 John 3:3
These verses all speak of the “hope” we have in Christ. While one can have confidence in our salvation, Scripture warns us that there will be those who call out Lord Lord, and Christ will not know them, so some will have false confidence. That is why we are not “assured” of heaven but hope for heaven.
II.** We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation**
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5
Rom. 8:24
Rom. 10:1
Rom. 12:12
2 Cor. 3:12
Gal. 5:5
Eph. 4:4
Eph. 6:10-17
Phil. 3:11
Phil. 1:20
Col. 1:5
Col. 1:23
Col. 1:27
1 Thess. 1:3
1 Thess. 2:19
1 Thess. 5:8
2 Thess. 2:16
1 Tim. 1:1
1 Tim. 4:10
1 Tim. 5:5 -
1 Tim. 5:15
2 Tim. 2:10
Titus 1:2
Titus 2:13
Titus 3:7
Heb. 3:6
Heb. 6:11
Heb. 6:18
Heb. 6:19
Heb. 7:19
Heb. 10:23
Heb. 11:1
Heb. 12:1 –
Heb. 12:15
James 1:12
1 Peter 1:3
1 Peter 1:13
1 Peter 1:21
1 Peter 2:2
1 Peter 3:15
1 John 3:3
These verses all speak of the “hope” we have in Christ. While one can have confidence in our salvation, Scripture warns us that there will be those who call out Lord Lord, and Christ will not know them, so some will have false confidence. That is why we are not “assured” of heaven but hope for heaven.
P
Pax
Guest
A key set of passages for understanding the relationship of faith and works in Catholic teaching is Eph 2:8-10. Most protestants quote Eph 2:8 to justify their teaching of faith alone. Let’s see how this really pans out.
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast.
Clearly we do not save ourselves and our salvation is a work of God’s grace. We did not earn it and did nothing to deserve it. We never worked for God’s gracious gift of justification. Everything is by grace.
So how does the idea of works fit in?
Simply keep in mind that everything is by grace and then simply read verse 10 which says,
“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
It is important to notice that we are not our own workmanship. We are instead God’s workmanship. Moreover, we have been created in Christ Jesus for good works. Ponder the rich meaning of that phrase especially in light of the fact that everything is by God’s grace. The works that we do are part of the grace that saves us and they are nothing less than the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, bodies, and souls.
Not only that, but God prepared these works in advance of our justification so that we should walk in them. This set of passages is the perfect bridge between Paul’s teaching of being saved by grace through faith and James statement that “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”[James 2:22-24]
I hope this helps.
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast.
Clearly we do not save ourselves and our salvation is a work of God’s grace. We did not earn it and did nothing to deserve it. We never worked for God’s gracious gift of justification. Everything is by grace.
So how does the idea of works fit in?
Simply keep in mind that everything is by grace and then simply read verse 10 which says,
“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
It is important to notice that we are not our own workmanship. We are instead God’s workmanship. Moreover, we have been created in Christ Jesus for good works. Ponder the rich meaning of that phrase especially in light of the fact that everything is by God’s grace. The works that we do are part of the grace that saves us and they are nothing less than the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, bodies, and souls.
Not only that, but God prepared these works in advance of our justification so that we should walk in them. This set of passages is the perfect bridge between Paul’s teaching of being saved by grace through faith and James statement that “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”[James 2:22-24]
I hope this helps.
L
look3467
Guest
Hi, MariaG
The whole concept of salvation is that mankind cannot of itself save itself.
The question is: from what are we saved?
What did you or I do to become unsaved?
Does being born in the flesh qualify as being unsaved? And if so, why can’t we save ourselves?
What is it about this life and us, that by our own works, merits and religious faith that we can’t save ourselves?
In that question lies the answer to why God has to do the saving.
Let me site this verse and see if it does not reflect on what I just said: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
You see, “the creature was made subject” to vanity, (destruction) that is: having part in taking of the fruits of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, bring forth destruction.
That brought death of the spirit as well as of the body.
Therefore, on the second part of that verse quote: “but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope”: meaning that God Himself provided a (Lamb) way out of that dilemma by sending Jesus “as God” to take away the sin and the sins of the world, setting us free from spiritual death.
If you take the bible in whole, you’ll see the creation, the loss, and the redemption as a complete story.
A creation story: of seven days duration, or say a complete and finished product.
Jesus as God, came in the midst of that week and re-created a new heavens and a new earth and was laid to rest on the 7th day.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
So the whole story then is about the Son of God saving a lost world.
Jesus in effect redid the world that then was and recreated a new world under grace. As if starting all over again, this time Adam (Second Adam) being an obedient servant pleasing to the Father in our behalf brings forth life.
Now the question has always been, “we must do our part, otherwise, we will not gain salvation”.
The thought that we should “do” something for our salvation has been the crux and the great misunderstanding.
When Jesus died on the cross, there was no distinction between Jew and Gentile, just and unjust, but died for all mankind.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Christ came to save that which was lost: Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Even the most righteous person on this earth was lost, for justification for mankind had not been made prior to Jesus’ coming.(Hence the visitation to those in prison)
Thank you Father for saving my soul, for your righteousness in Jesus became my righteousness, for my righteousness was as filthy rags.
1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Here is salvation of our souls, Jesus in us, and in Jesus there is life.
Praise be to Jesus, our Lord and Savior.
Peace>>>AJ
The whole concept of salvation is that mankind cannot of itself save itself.
The question is: from what are we saved?
What did you or I do to become unsaved?
Does being born in the flesh qualify as being unsaved? And if so, why can’t we save ourselves?
What is it about this life and us, that by our own works, merits and religious faith that we can’t save ourselves?
In that question lies the answer to why God has to do the saving.
Let me site this verse and see if it does not reflect on what I just said: Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
You see, “the creature was made subject” to vanity, (destruction) that is: having part in taking of the fruits of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, bring forth destruction.
That brought death of the spirit as well as of the body.
Therefore, on the second part of that verse quote: “but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope”: meaning that God Himself provided a (Lamb) way out of that dilemma by sending Jesus “as God” to take away the sin and the sins of the world, setting us free from spiritual death.
If you take the bible in whole, you’ll see the creation, the loss, and the redemption as a complete story.
A creation story: of seven days duration, or say a complete and finished product.
Jesus as God, came in the midst of that week and re-created a new heavens and a new earth and was laid to rest on the 7th day.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
So the whole story then is about the Son of God saving a lost world.
Jesus in effect redid the world that then was and recreated a new world under grace. As if starting all over again, this time Adam (Second Adam) being an obedient servant pleasing to the Father in our behalf brings forth life.
Now the question has always been, “we must do our part, otherwise, we will not gain salvation”.
The thought that we should “do” something for our salvation has been the crux and the great misunderstanding.
When Jesus died on the cross, there was no distinction between Jew and Gentile, just and unjust, but died for all mankind.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Christ came to save that which was lost: Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Even the most righteous person on this earth was lost, for justification for mankind had not been made prior to Jesus’ coming.(Hence the visitation to those in prison)
Thank you Father for saving my soul, for your righteousness in Jesus became my righteousness, for my righteousness was as filthy rags.
1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
Here is salvation of our souls, Jesus in us, and in Jesus there is life.
Praise be to Jesus, our Lord and Savior.
Peace>>>AJ
T
Tonks40
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Yes, He is. But don’t bank on it!
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