Saved by grace, etc. what?

[MariaG]

Hi **look3467 **

You misunderstand what I was trying to say. As Tonks so simply but accurately said, Jesus is our salvation, but we can’t know for sure, without a doubt that we are going to heaven because that would require divination to know whether or not we were going to persevere until the end. All the Scripture I posted was talking about our “hope” of heaven and persevering until the end.

If you do not believe in Once saved always saved, then the verses really missed the target for that was the intent. If you believe after you have been saved, we must continue to “walk the walk” then we are on the same page.

But we can do absolutely nothing to be saved. It is a free gift from God that we simply must accept and say yes to. If you think Catholic position in any way says we earn our way to heaven you are mistaken.

Posted by look3467
Now the question has always been, “we must do our part, otherwise, we will not gain salvation”.

The thought that we should “do” something for our salvation has been the crux and the great misunderstanding.

You are correct. And the biggest misunderstanding is that people think Catholics think we need to “do” something to be saved. We Don’t. We never have.

Doing anything does not save you, but as James says, “a faith without works is dead”. Works point to the evidence of your faith. Works are “walking the walk”.

If you say you have faith but do nothing, yours is a dead faith and worth nothing.

Here is salvation of our souls, Jesus in us, and in Jesus there is life.

Praise be to Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[look3467]

Hi, Tonks40, MariaG.

“Yes, He is. But don’t bank on it!”>>> Tonks40

I surely can’t depend on my own efforts.

That’s the whole key to our salvation.

Mankind without Christ is without salvation.

And I know you agree with this, but I said it to show that Jesus is our substituted lamb of sacrifice, (Substituted goat for Isaac) rather than Abraham sacrificing Isaac.

Jesus took our place in judgment. Salvation than is granted without our judgment.

We are set free! Free from judgment that determined our status for salvation.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Being “made” free, is placing Jesus for our judgment. And, if being made free, then we have power over the things that would bind us to this world.

Much as like: a bird in a cage. As long as the door is shut, the bird is in bondage to the cage.

But, if the door is opened and wired open, then the bird is free to leave the cage and get away. All he has to do it take action to leave.

But, if the bird chooses to remain in the cage, then though free, he still remains in bondage to the cage.

Likewise us. We are made free, so we so as the verse says: “Stand fast therefore in the liberty”, meaning, take advantage of that because it is ours to keep, but don’t let the cage bind you up as though you haven’t been made free.

I take my liberty serious and Jesus is my rock.

Yes, works do show forth the faith that is in us as proof, yet there are many who deceive by their works as Paul pointed out as warnings.

1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

“Working out” our salvation means just that.

Salvation we have, so let’s dwell in it, show it, and bring it out in our daily living.

Jesus left us two commandments: Love God and neighbor.

Love is and action word, call it works, and it precedes the noun and therefore, we are free to exercise it, knowing full well that we are safe in His hands.

We are the bird whose door to the cage has been opened. The price of judgment has been paid for and the door shut open.

Fly if you will in the liberty set before you, and tell everybody else you see what Jesus has done for them, so they to can fly away from their bondages.

The love of the Father is greater than any of us can imagine, more so than what we are able to understand.

There is a tendency to be like Jona: Jon 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

We, in our own righteousness cannot understand how a God can forgive those who live not as we do and therefore we judge.

These are things that must be “worked out”. Love of God in us is what makes us turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, give the coat off our backs.

These are the works that are spoken about when Jesus is in us. Similarly, Jesus did the works that He saw the Father do, even so, we do the works that we see Jesus do.

I trust, rely and place my whole life and soul on the promise that Jesus made to me, “I will be with you till the end”.

I know I am saved, without a doubt, and therefore are free to put His works into action.

I have worked out my prejudices towards all non-believers and all religious beliefs.

Many Christians today believe that unless one confesses Jesus, one is lost and going to hell, therefore they are prejudiced.

Hence: all the different religions.

In a nut shell: If God’s spirit is not in us, what difference does hell make?

If God does not open the door, then I’m doomed in the cage.

Hell, is a good place to be from, and that’s where we are free from: Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him…….

“Death and hell followed Him”, and both cast into the lake of fire: Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire……

Can we rise above those things that bind us, or are we still bound?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[drforjc]

Salvation than is granted without our judgment.

How does that not contradict this scripture verse?
2Cor.5

1. 
   ]10] For we must all appear before the* judgment** seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

 

[look3467]

Hi, drforjc

How does that not contradict this scripture verse?
2Cor.5

1. [10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.>>> drforjc

That’s a good question. Based on my studies I find that there are two judgments.
1.The judgment that dammed us to hell (eternal separation) and 2. The judgment that we go through here on earth.

The first judgment Jesus took for us on the cross: Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

He commanded His love towards us while yet we are and were yet sinners, and the next verse says whether we are dead or alive.

You know that we can be alive though dead? And dead though alive?

The second judgment is on-going as you live.

Hos 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Prophesied “Till”, “he come and rain righteousness upon you”.

Prophecy fulfilled at the cross when the righteousness of God was granted to all of us by the sacrifice of his Son.

That speaks both of our own righteousness and God’s righteousness.

Back to the second judgment: Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

You see, God took care of our eternal state, and now it is our responsibility to take care of our own state, by first acknowledging His saving grace (Salvation) and second, living it out while we are alive still.

Whatever sins we commit here, here is where we will pay.

Jesus is the judge of our own estate, did He not say, “I will be with you till the end”, and did He not buy all of mankind’s soul by His sacrifice on the cross?

Jesus bought the tree of knowledge of good and evil, lock stock and barrel; He is the rightful owner of it.

He was cursed for us: Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The judgment seat of Christ means just that, He was in the judgment seat, He was judged in our stead, He was the substituted lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.

Prior to Jesus, the law ruled, but after Jesus: love rules.

The law brought death to the soul, while love brings life to the soul.

The first Adam was flesh and brought death.

The second Adam is Spirit and brought life.

Adam designates a beginning, meaning : 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The beginning of the church in it’s infancy was at the resurrection of Jesus.

The infant body (Church) was born there, and has being growing ever since.

As you know that babies are not born adults, likewise the church has been going through it’s growing pains.

The church (Body of Christ) not the institution, but the souls compromising the body of Christ (Church) is been molded by Christ through His Holy Spirit in us, maturing us as the body (One body as a whole) grows to maturity.

The new laws written in our hearts given by Jesus are these: Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

The only institution on earth that can abide by these two laws (spiritual laws) is the human soul, the human spirit born of God.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Continued on next post…

 

[look3467]

Continued from last post…

Direct access to the Father by Jesus our High Priest are we in His Kingdom’s dwelling.

For His Kingdom is not of this world, likewise reckon yourselves not of this world either.

For His kingdom is a spiritual kingdom and cannot be touched with human hands but only with the human spirit, that is: if that human spirit is “born of God”, otherwise, we continue to be ruled by the worlds laws and conditions.

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

There is no condemnation: Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Where is then the judgment if you’re walking in the spirit? On Christ!

Praise you Jesus!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Pax]

look3467,

The idea that Christians will not come to an eternal judgment, but are only judged and punished in this life does not coincide with scripture. The word judgment occurs many times in the NT and when it pertains to God’s judgment it is virtually always a reference to eternal judgment. Scripture makes it clear that we as Christians can lose our salvation and receive an eternal punishment. The following verses will make this clear:

Romans 2:3-8
Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself** on the day ** of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render **to every man ** according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

In this passage it is important to note that Paul mentions the “day of wrath when God’s righteousness will be revealed.” This is a clear reference to the “Last Day,” the day of judgment for everyone. This is further reinforced in verse 16 which says, “on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.” Moreover, Paul refers to this judgment in terms of punishment and eternal life.

Romans 14:11-12
For **we shall all ** stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” So each of us shall give account of himself to God. This passage is absolutely unequivocal in speaking about Christians coming before the judgment seat of God and giving an accounting.

Much more could be pointed out on this topic from scripture, but the above passages should be sufficient. If you need more I will be glad to supply more. This is always a great topic of discussion.

 

[Pax]

look3467,

The term freedom when used in the NT by Paul is a reference to three things which are intertwined. These three things are the OT Law, sin and grace. Paul tells us that the law brings knowledge of sin, but that it cannot justify us[Romans 3:20]. Paul then says in verse 24 that we “are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,” It is then made quite clear that we are justified apart from the works of Law. Paul then lets us know what this means for us in terms of how the justified “must” live. In verse 31 he says, “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.” How do we uphold the law? We uphold the law by being subject to the Law of Christ[1 Cor 9:21]. Jesus summed up the Law in the two great commandments and he makes it clear that these are not optional.

So where does freedom fit in? The freedom that is spoken of is a “freedom from sin by grace.” The following passages demonstrate this quite well:

John 8: 31-36
Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered him, "We are descendants of Abraham and have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean by saying, “You will be made free’?” Jesus answered them, "Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Rom 6: 6
We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

Rom 6:14-16
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

1 Jn 3: 4-9
Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God.

Acts 13:39
by this Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

1 Peter 4:1-2
Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same intention (for whoever has suffered in the flesh has finished with sin), so as to live for the rest of your earthly life no longer by human desires but by the will of God.

The fact that justification includes the works that God prepared beforehand and that we are his workmanship[Eph 2:10] is indicative of God’s desires and the “power” of his grace. Sin brings death. God’s grace empowers us and frees us from the bondage of committing sin. This is the relationship of faith and works and salvation by grace. All the glory goes to God.

 

[Matt16_18]

Pax:

… The freedom that is spoken of is a “freedom from sin by grace.” … God’s grace empowers us and frees us from the bondage of committing sin.

“Why do you call me `Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?”
Luke 6:46

“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
Matt. 7:21

 

[look3467]

Hi, Pax

The idea that Christians will not come to an eternal judgment, but are only judged and punished in this life does not coincide with scripture.>>>Pax

Argument for judgment in the flesh:

Pro 24:12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Works is something done in the flesh: Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Adams judgment was to work, meaning in the flesh his judgment was passed: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

To know good and evil is to become like God but in the flesh. 1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So, Adam was expelled.

Flesh and blood are of this world, and judgment of it stays here: Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Argument for judgment in the eternal:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Here we have the foundation of: Dead works, baptisms, laying on of hands, of faith towards God, the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

You see, Jesus’ works fulfilled all that was just mentioned: for mankind could not but dwell on them.
So now they are as dead works for us, for the foundation that Jesus has laid, is His works.

So it must of necessity be that we must now rely on His works for our salvation. Not our works.

Eternal punishment included in His works. It’s part of that verse of dead works.

What now? We ask? “Let us go on unto perfection”.

How do we do that? Forget all the dead works of mankind and trust, rely, believe and give our lives to Christ, then He will work His work in us to perfection.

Notice the reference to the flesh in this verse: Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But, if one walks in the flesh, then condemnation is apparent.

The unbelieving:

Now, for those who die in the flesh who had not known Jesus as you and I do, what is their end?

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
The world deals with them and they die in their sins.

At death: Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Continued on next post…

 

[look3467]

Continued from last post……

What does all that mean?

It means that regardless of what we were on earth we all will confess Jesus as Lord at death.

For us, we confess Him now.

If we look at the story of the Potter, we will see that God moulds 4 kinds of vessels in this life.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Two types of vessels: honour, and another unto dishonour?
Vessels of mercy to show Gods glory, and vessels fit for destruction to show His wrath.

Either way, the vessels are the object of His desires and His judgment falls on both.

Vessels are earthen and therefore subject to judgment, after that is no judgment.

The Potters furnace is where all the vessels go where the vessels is refined, cleansed and fit for the glory of God.

The furnace is the world where we are tried by fire, in this case the loving fire of a gracious God.

Fire: Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Fire burns but not consumes.

Exo 9:24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.

Hail not consumed.

Exo 24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Our God and all consuming fire!

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Where else but on earth is this judgment made if not by fire?

The first death was hell, the second death is the lake of fire.

If God is an all consuming fire, then the lake of fire is God consuming death and hell, and Jesus being the vehicle that done it.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The conquer, Jesus was followed by death and hell, of which is no more for all of it was cast into the firey furnace of The Fathers Love.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

Luke 6:46

“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
Matt. 7:21
[/quote]

Hi, Mat16_18

There is a little bit of history attached to those verses:

The state of the Jewish nation verses the state of the kingdom of God in Jesus.

To do the will of the Father is the key to that understanding.

Consider the laws set down by Moses from the Father:

Primarily: Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

The Jewish nation honored one God and anybody else claiming to be as God must be put to death:

Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Jesus was accused of blaspheming the name of God: Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Mar 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

So what we have here in your verses is the Jewish nation is sticking to the directions given by Moses and not having a heart for Jesus.

Calling Him Lord but their hearts not in it. So none of them calling Him Lord could enter into His rest, or His kingdom.

Being that Jesus had not yet gone to the cross, so redemption had not yet been finalized, but the fact that they would believe in Him would reckon them as redeemed.

The will of the Father than is to honor the Son, of which they didn’t.

1Jo 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Jesus then becomes the pivotal point of all humanity.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Pax]

look3467,

I may have been misunderstood. In my post # 31 I noted that in the NT God’s judgment almost always refers to eternal judgment. I did not mean to suggest that there are no temporal judgments that may include temporal punishments. My point was to emphasize the verses in the NT that spoke of God’s eternal judgments as they pertain to us as Christians. In order to refute this truth one needs to exegetically refute the content of the verses that were supplied.

OT verses and any NT verses that pertain to temporal punishments or chastisements would not refute enternal penalties and verses that address that issue.

 

[look3467]

Hi, Pax

I may have been misunderstood. In my post # 31 I noted that in the NT God’s judgment almost always refers to eternal judgment. I did not mean to suggest that there are no temporal judgments that may include temporal punishments. My point was to emphasize the verses in the NT that spoke of God’s eternal judgments as they pertain to us as Christians. In order to refute this truth one needs to exegetically refute the content of the verses that were supplied.

OT verses and any NT verses that pertain to temporal punishments or chastisements would not refute enternal penalties and verses that address that issue.>>>Pax

Eternal judgments:

Lets look at why we have judgments in the first place.

Judgment came to mankind because of sin, and the result was death.
Judgment came to Jesus because of mankind’s sin, and the result was life.

If we look again and see that the judgment of mankind’s sin was done away with by the judgment of Jesus, then there is after that no longer a judgment for mankind’s sin that caused death. (Eternal death)
So there can be no eternal death, only physical death.

That leaves the judgment that can only be dealt with while yet in the physical, for after death, there exists no longer a judgment.

Scripture makes it clear that we as Christians can lose our salvation and receive an eternal punishment. The following verses will make this clear:>>>Pax

Again, if Jesus paid the price for our eternal destiny, (Meaning eternal punishment, banishment, eternal separation or just plain dead spiritually for all eternity) then it must mean that, that part Jesus took care of for us.

So at death then, punishment, and judgments cease.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Every knee!

If Christ died for all, then there are none dead. (Eternally speaking)

Physically speaking, there are dead folks living. (Without Christ)

Therefore, God is not their God, only those who are spiritually alive.

Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

So salvation is to them who are spiritually alive, for Christ is in them.

Romans 2:3-8
Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.>>>Pax

Lets study the verse above that you gave: O man: (Physically alive) present tense.
If you judge, judgment is upon you on the day (Physical) that God’s judgment on you will be revealed, for He will render to every man according to his works……
Works are part of this world, for Jesus ceased from His works when He was crucified, so works are considered earthly.

… “to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.>>>Pax

If we are seeking, we will find it, for He will give eternal life, yet in our flesh, “but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury”

You see, it all happens while in the flesh, for that part of it we are responsible.

We are to take care of our own bodies, for it is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Jesus owns us for the eternal part and has full access to us at death, but only in part while yet alive.

But while yet alive our calling is made secure when He comes and abides in us.

Salvation once received cannot be lost.

What can be lost is the glory of it.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Pax]

Your explanations of the verses presented to you are not exegetically valid. These are personal interpretations that go way beyond the biblical text. Since you revealed the fact that you believe in OSAS, it is clear why you must try to explain the verses the way you have. In saying that, I mean no disrespect for I am sure your beliefs are deeply held.

I have personally researched this issue in the NT and have compiled over sixty five separate passages that deny OSAS. You can search the forums for past threads where we have discussed the issue a number of different times. The arguments presented against the teaching are overwhelming. I am going to give you a sample of something from the book of Revelation that I find pretty persuasive, but there is a super abundance of other sciptures as well.

If OSAS were true Jesus would not have addressed the seven Churches the way he did in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3. In addressing the Churches Jesus warns against the sins being committed by the Christians in the Churches at Ephesus, Thyatira, Laodecia, Smyrna, Pergamum, Sardis, and Philadelphia. His warnings are such that Jesus threatens to “remove their lampstands.” This means that they will be destroyed. In all of this he speaks of those that refrain from evil and uses the term “To him who conquers” in reference to them.

Please note the following:

Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.’

Rev 2:26-29 He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:4-5 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Rev 3:11-13 I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:21-22 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

Rev 21: 7-8 He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

The last passage quoted is really quite telling. It contrasts those that conquer with those that engage in the sins that bring judgment and condemnation. Please notice that they suffer the “second death.” All of these passages are addressed to the Christian Churches. The instructions and warnings are to Christians. The instructions and warnings are to those that have been justified. These verses are not addressed to non-believers.

This entire set of passages unequivocally refute OSAS. The rest of the NT does so as well.

I hope this helps.

 

[look3467]

Hi, Pax
Your explanations of the verses presented to you are not exegetically valid. These are personal interpretations that go way beyond the biblical text. Since you revealed the fact that you believe in OSAS, it is clear why you must try to explain the verses the way you have. In saying that, I mean no disrespect for I am sure your beliefs are deeply held>>>Pax

I fully understand your position and in no way am I trying to persuade you otherwise.

I simply present my opinions and let the chips fall where they may.

I try to present all the evidence in light of what I’ve learned constitute the works of Christ’s mission.

It is evident that unless Christ endured to the end, none of us would stand a chance at salvation.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus had to be tempted in all points as to be able to meet all the requirements that no man could meet save the righteousness of God.

Job 33:26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.

It is the righteousness of God that grants us salvation and nothing that we do.

It is a work of God in our stead.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

The underling theme of the whole bible is God saving mankind: God’s overwhelming mercy upon sinners.

The number (7) has great significance in how God accomplished the new heavens and the new earth.

Jesus in order to save the whole creation must Himself partake of it’s whole and recreate it over again, but this time under grace.

The first man Adam brought separation from God (Flesh) the second man Adam brought reconciliation. (Life) Spiritual.

The seven churches are the 7 periods or days of the 7 day creation story.

Jesus took them and nailed them to the cross in six days, and rested on the 7th.

Then, on the 8th, a new week of sevens, Jesus acquired salvation for all.

Jesus thus requires only two commandments, that if we love as He did, we would love the Father and our neighbor.

If we can understand that, then we have it all.

I understand that this information is not a norm, but only for those who seek the wonders of our God for the purposes of joy in the Lord.

Most brothers and sisters in all religious organizations, know only what their taught, which keeps them as like a shallow creek whose passage can be blocked easily, and not like a deep running river whose passage can not be blocked easily.

Once I discovered that Jesus died for my sins, I knew my soul was safe in His hands, for I, for myself don’t have a prayer of ever saving myself.

Eternity started for me at thirteen years old and am looking forward after this life to being with Him forever.

That: I am assured of, without a doubt.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Pax]

look3467:

I fully understand your position and in no way am I trying to persuade you otherwise.

I simply present my opinions and let the chips fall where they may.

I try to present all the evidence in light of what I’ve learned constitute the works of Christ’s mission.

…
…
The seven churches are the 7 periods or days of the 7 day creation story.

Jesus took them and nailed them to the cross in six days, and rested on the 7th.

Then, on the 8th, a new week of sevens, Jesus acquired salvation for all.

Jesus thus requires only two commandments, that if we love as He did, we would love the Father and our neighbor.

If we can understand that, then we have it all.

I understand that this information is not a norm, but only for those who seek the wonders of our God for the purposes of joy in the Lord.

Most brothers and sisters in all religious organizations, know only what their taught, which keeps them as like a shallow creek whose passage can be blocked easily, and not like a deep running river whose passage can not be blocked easily.

Once I discovered that Jesus died for my sins, I knew my soul was safe in His hands, for I, for myself don’t have a prayer of ever saving myself.

Eternity started for me at thirteen years old and am looking forward after this life to being with Him forever.

That: I am assured of, without a doubt.

Peace>>>AJ

There are several problems here. The first is that the seven churches referenced in Revelation do not represent the seven days of creation. They represent the whole church and its universality. The expressions concerning some of the wrong doings in the seven churches are explicit and clear warnings. Nothing is more clear in the Book of Revelation than the meaning of these passages.

You mention that Jesus has done everything necessary for salvation and are leaving me with the distinct impression that you think that Catholics believe that we are saved by our works. Please go back and read my earlier posts carefully to see what we really believe.

Subsequent to your statements concerning Jesus doing everything necessary and that we have nothing to do with it, you then commented that *"Jesus thus requires only two commandments, that if we love as He did, we would love the Father and our neighbor.

If we can understand that, then we have it all."*

This is a serious contradiction to the idea that we have no participation in our salvation because you are now saying that Jesus actually requires us to keep the two great commandments. You need to think about this because you are onto something quite Catholic. Ask yourself this question. Is it necessary to love God in order to be saved? After thinking about this a bit let me know what you believe.

 

[look3467]

Hi, Pax

There are several problems here. The first is that the seven churches referenced in Revelation do not represent the seven days of creation. They represent the whole church and its universality. The expressions concerning some of the wrong doings in the seven churches are explicit and clear warnings. Nothing is more clear in the Book of Revelation than the meaning of these passages.

Sorry for the delay in answering your post. I had thought to explain it comprehensively but it’s quite lengthy, and just scraped it.

Your right in that it does represent the whole church.

The seven ages of the church, if you will, I believe represent all of it’s works and it’s sins: of which Christ had to cover for on His way to the cross.

7 is a number that indicates completeness. The 7-day creation story is a complete story in itself.

Six days God created and on the 7th He rested from His creating.

Likewise, Jesus in similitude, recreated those 7-days by first fulfilling every jot and tittle of the original creation story, meaning the old world that was, and took it to the cross long with all future sins not yet committed by all future generations.

For the old world saints, He visited them in prison and liberated the lot, and for the new world, He is in heaven as our High Priest.

But, the warnings of those seven churches, are real for our benefit.

You mention that Jesus has done everything necessary for salvation and are leaving me with the distinct impression that you think that Catholics believe that we are saved by our works. Please go back and read my earlier posts carefully to see what we really believe>>>Pax

Please understand that salvation by works has been around for 2,000 years and way before that.

The word “Divinity” implies mankind’s desire to reach God by it’s own means, thus having to “DO” something of some sacrifice to gain the God’s favor.

If today, we can understand by way of knowledge that Jesus died for “all” mankind, then we can understand that salvation is completely out of our hands.

Our behavior in that salvation then determines our degree of curses or blessings only while yet alive on this earth.

Every conceivable sin was covered at the cross only for the purposes of salvation.

The responsibility to live right then lies with us after we have received the knowledge of our Lord Christ’s gift to us by His sacrifice.

When our Lord Christ comes and abides in us, we become are sons of God, because our dead spirits are revived and made new: this time for all eternity.

Lack of God’s knowledge is what is destroying mankind.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

We may reject knowledge when presented to us, but we will suffer the consequences of the peace of God in us, only while yet alive on this earth.

Salvation to life, is not determined by our behavior, but salvation from the lack of knowledge is.

Subsequent to your statements concerning Jesus doing everything necessary and that we have nothing to do with it, you then commented that "Jesus thus requires only two commandments, that if we love as He did, we would love the Father and our neighbor>>>Pax

Yes, the necessary requirement for our salvation has been taken care of by our Lord Jesus, notwithstanding, our behavior.

We are accountable to our own behavior of which we can suffer losses, or we can gain blessings, but not eternal damnation, as believed.

If we can understand that, then we have it all.">>>AJ

This is a serious contradiction to the idea that we have no participation in our salvation because you are now saying that Jesus actually requires us to keep the two great commandments. You need to think about this because you are onto something quite Catholic. Ask yourself this question. Is it necessary to love God in order to be saved? After thinking about this a bit let me know what you believe.>>>Pax

Answer to your question: “Is it necessary to love God in order to be saved?” No, and Yes, in that order.

No, because God provided salvation (Eternal life) without our participation, and Yes, lack of that knowledge keeps us in darkness.

Lack of understanding of the love of God us-ward, is what has all of us up in arms against each other.

I once believed that only those who confessed Christ as their savior where going to heaven and the rest were going to hell.

That caused me to judge between the saved and unsaved when judgment is not mine to give.

The two commandments given by Jesus for us, encompasses all that is required for us to live righteously in a world that is unrighteous.

I hope I made that explanation simple enough.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[John_Henry]

Paris Blues:

How do I answer this:

The biggest issue is how is a man made righteous,
justified, saved according to holy scripture. The
Presbyterians hold and teach that Christ Jesus ALONE
“by grace through faith” saves!(Eph.2:8&9; Col. 1:11).
In the Presbyterian church and confessions Christ
Jesus is given the glory, the honor, the
acknowledgment totally, most other denomination it’s
Christ plus … plus their works of some sort thereby
taking some of the honor and making less of the
accomplished work of our Lord Jesus Christ. I cannot
stress this enough the Lord Jesus saves without the
aid of man in anyway possible. Good works are a
by-product of being a Christian, being Reformation
month, Martian Luther said, “an apple tree produces
apple NOT to become an apple tree, but b/c it IS an
apple tree” the same is true with Christians and why
they do good works; not to get save but b/c one is
saved.

It is quite simple. The Church teaches that we are saved by Jesus Christ. Period. The Church also teaches that our works are the fruit of our freely entering the state of grace (by faith and baptism). The problem enters because your Presbyterian buddy confounds “salvation” with entering the state of grace. Catholics properly understand that salvation, as demonstrated by scripture, is a process, beginning in baptism, followed by a life of faithfulness (which cannot fail but to include our doing “works”) leading to sanctification. Look at Romans 13:11. St. Paul is writing to Christians, but clearly makes reference to a dimension of their salvation that remains in the future.

As for interupting the Bible, we don’t only use the
Bible for our practice and doctrine, we stand on the
teaching of the fathers (the confessions), the creeds,
the church BUT the Bible is the FINAL AUTHORITY on all
matters of faith and practice not a man or men.
“Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica,
in that they received the word with all readiness of
the mind, examining (interupt) the Scriptures daily,
whether these things were so.” Acts 17:11 (American
Standard Version)

Here, your buddy is, not necessarily on purpose, trying to pull the wool over your eyes. He pays lip service to some forms of tradition, and then immediately guts his glaim to follow it by placing (his interpretation of) the bible above tradition. When tradition agrees with his interpretation, the tradition is right. When they are at odds, the tradition is wrong. This is nothing more than using the “bible only”.

As for his claim regarding the Bereans, he makes it seem like what Paul was telling them was plainly written in the Old Testament scriptures. But, if it was, how come the Thessalonian Jews didn’t buy Paul’s message? They were Jews. They knew their writings better than we do. The answer is that the Thessalonians accepted the Scriptures, but not Paul’s authoritative interpretation of them. Whereas the Bereans, being “more noble”, accepted Paul’s authoritative interpretation. So you see, it is the Bereans who accept scripture and the apostolic tradition, and the Thessalonians who are the sola-scripturists.

 

[Pax]

look3467:

Hi, Pax

…
…

Yes, the necessary requirement for our salvation has been taken care of by our Lord Jesus, notwithstanding, our behavior.

We are accountable to our own behavior of which we can suffer losses, or we can gain blessings, but not eternal damnation, as believed.
…
…

Answer to your question: “Is it necessary to love God in order to be saved?” No, and Yes, in that order.

No, because God provided salvation (Eternal life) without our participation, and Yes, lack of that knowledge keeps us in darkness.

Lack of understanding of the love of God us-ward, is what has all of us up in arms against each other.
…
…
The two commandments given by Jesus for us, encompasses all that is required for us to live righteously in a world that is unrighteous.

I hope I made that explanation simple enough.

Peace>>>AJ

Actually, none of it is clear.

If you are saying works righteousness has been around for two thousand years and before, try being more specific. If you believe that the Catholic Church teaches works righteousness then you are mistaken.

I asked a straight forward question about whether or not it is necessary to love God in order to be saved and you hedged your answer. You either must love God or it isn’t necessary at all. Which is it?

Let’s try some scripture to shed some light on this.

Matthew 7:22-23
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’

1 Cor 8:3
…but anyone who loves God is known by him.

1 Cor 16:22
Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord. Our Lord, come!

Jam 1:12-15
Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

James 2:5
Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of **the kingdom that he has promised ** to those who love him?

Luke 10:25-37
“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

John 14:15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

1Cor 2:9
But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him"

1Cor 13:1-2
If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge,** and if I have all faith**, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

1Cor 13:13
And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

LOVE IS OBEDIENCE
1Jn 5:3
For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.

2 Jn 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment just as you have heard it from the beginning-**you must ** walk in it.

Scripture makes it clear…if we do not love love we are accursed and we will not spend eternity with God. If you think there is anyone in heaven that does not love God, then please let me know. If you think that anyone is in heaven that did not love God while on earth and at the time of their death, then please let me know. Not loving God is incompatible with being in the presence of God or being in a state of justification.

 

[look3467]

Hi, Pax
I

asked a straight forward question about whether or not it is necessary to love God in order to be saved and you hedged your answer. You either must love God or it isn’t necessary at all. Which is it?>>>Pax

Ok, in short NO! I say that respectfully.

I was hoping you might see the point I was trying to make by saying that God saved us without any righteousness on our part.

Meaning, that the righteousness of Christ is what met the requirements for salvation. So, if we are His body, the resurrected body, then salvation we have by Him.

The “works” that we accomplish here on earth are tried by fire, that is: the judgment of the Lord upon us.

1Co 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire
.

Notice: everyman’s work? Work can only be accomplished while in the flesh, for it shall be manifested.

If the works abide: blessings are in order, if burned, he shall suffer loss.

These are behavioral problems of the flesh, which originally brought death to our souls, but since Jesus’ sacrifice, the price for that was paid in full, and liberty granted to us all.

If, behavior was the standard by which we can and cannot enter eternal life, then Jesus died for nothing.

The responsibility for salvation of our souls would be placed squarely on ourselves, and you know that we could apart from Christ never make it.

Question? What was the whole point of God’s chosen people? Was it to have a relative (Representative) here on earth to declare to the world His love by the works of His chosen.(The Jewish nation)

Now it says: Jesus came to His own and His own received Him not, right?

What would have happened if they had received Him? There would be no death or a sacrifice to atone for the sin brought about by the first Adam.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It was not humanly possible for mankind in it’s state to have the ability to redeem himself without the power of God in him.

Yahshua is the name of Jesus. Yah-is the name of the Father, and Shua is the salvation of the Father.

So you have, in the name Yahshua: “The Fathers salvation”.

Eternal life then is a product of God, not ours. We are the recipients of that salvation by Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Now we have abundance of grace and the gift “of righteousness”.

Back to the chosen: the nation of Israel; in order for Jesus to be “**offered up” ** as a sacrifice for all mankind, somebody had to carry the job of making sure the sacrificial lamb was sacrificed.

For this reason God blinded them: Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Now we have the high priest taking the initiative to arrest Christ and have Him crucified.

Therefore the saying: Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The works that these High Priest did, were because they where blinded. So are these high priests souls in jeopardy of eternal damnation by their evil works?

The answer No! For if God blinded them so that Jesus may be offered, then the evil, which they did, is forgiven them by the very sacrifice they offered.

So, who’s doing the saving here? 1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

“But because He loved us”, and “according to the will of God and our Father”.
Continued on next post…