Saved by grace, etc. what?

[look3467]

Continued from last post…

Scripture makes it clear…if we do not love love we are accursed and we will not spend eternity with God. If you think there is anyone in heaven that does not love God, then please let me know. If you think that anyone is in heaven that did not love God while on earth and at the time of their death, then please let me know. Not loving God is incompatible with being in the presence of God or being in a state of justification.>>>Pax

1 Cor 16:22
Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord. Our Lord, come!>>>Pax

Yes, that’s true, but consider the time in which this statement declares: “who has”, is present tense.

We are all accursed until the light (Jesus) arises in our souls as the new day dawn.

So accursed being present tense requires the light of Jesus to be revealed as something that has already taken place at Calvary but not yet revealed, until the Jesus draws us.

Salvation by works of Jesus is present and always will be, but the reveling of it is the Good news of the gospel.

As far as the teaching of the Catholic Church, I will not address, simply:just present the word as I see it, and let the Holy Spirit work it’s desires.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[fwon2638]

Dear Paris,

Just ask the poster this question- Does the grace alone mean faith alone?

You see there are numerous instances whereby the Scripture tells us that obedience and love is critical for our salvation. The best example is in Matt 19, where a young man asks Jesus “what good must he does to attain eternal life?” (v16). Jesus’ repies:"… if you want to see life, obey the commandments" (v18). See also Matt 25:31ff (in which we are told the kind of judgement we will receive on the day).

Q: Will good work take away the completed work of Jesus?

I am going to quote one of the article by Gary Hoge (taken from his Catholic Outlook website)

continued

 

[fwon2638]

…Ifit is necessary to obey Jesus in order to end up saved (and it is, because the Bible says that “he who does not obey the Son shall not see life” – John 3:36), how can salvation be by grace, as the Bible also clearly says? How can the Bible say that eternal life is a reward for “persistence in doing good” while at the same time saying it is by grace? St. Augustine of Hippo wrestled with this question in the fifth century. Here is the answer he came up with:

*And hence there arises no small question, which must be solved by the Lord’s gift. If eternal life is rendered to good works, as the Scripture most openly declares: Then He shall reward every man according to his works: how can eternal life be a matter of grace, seeing that grace is not rendered to works, but is given gratuitously, as the apostle himself tells us: To him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt . . . And if of grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace? How, then, is eternal life by grace, when it is received from works? . . . *

This question, then, seems to me to be by no means capable of solution, unless we understand that even those good works of ours, which are recompensed with eternal life, belong to the grace of God*, because of what is said by the Lord Jesus: Without me ye can do nothing. And the apostle himself, after saying, By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast; saw, of course, the possibility that men would think from this statement that good works are not necessary to those who believe, but that faith alone suffices for them; and again, the possibility of men’s boasting of their good works, as if they were of themselves capable of performing them. To meet, therefore, these opinions on both sides, he immediately added, For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them*[1]

***So, then, our good works are not something we do apart from grace to add to the work of Christ, they are the work of Christ; they are completely motivated, enabled, and completed by God’s grace working in us. As the Bible says, “It is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose” (Phil. ***2:13). Both our faith and our works are gifts of God’s grace, by which He conforms us to the image of His Son.

We must never think that our obedience to God, or any other good work we may do, is done in our own power. Even for a saved person, this is not possible. As Jesus said, “Apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). Likewise, the Council of Orange declared “that a man can do no good without God. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it.”[2]*** The idea that we can do any good thing in our own power, either before or after conversion, is an ancient heresy called “Pelagianism,” which the Catholic Church condemned at the aforementioned Council of ***Orange in A.D. 529. For this reason, the Council of Trent declared that God’s grace is a grace “which always precedes their good works and which accompanies and follows them, and without which they could in no wise be pleasing or meritorious before God. . . . God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself, and not in the Lord, whose bounty towards all men is so great, that He will have the things which are His own gifts be their merits.”[3]

 

[fwon2638]

When, enabled by God’s grace, we first turn to Him, He gives us the gift of faith, and He saves us gratuitously. There is nothing we can give Him, no deeds we can do to earn His favor. Through Christ, He gives us freely what we could otherwise never attain. Then, having saved us in this initial sense, He works in us to will and to act, in order to conform us to the image of His Son. As we practice righteousness, we become like Him. All of this, both faith and works, is by grace. It is God who sustains us in the Christian life. Therefore, “let us thow off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us” (Heb. 12:1). And let us “pursue . . . the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord” (Heb. 12:14).

Unless we grasp the fact that our faith and our works, which are ultimately rewarded with eternal life, are both gifts of grace, we will never be able to make sense of the New Testament, and inevitably we will ignore half of it. Either we will emphasize grace apart from works, and descend into Antinomianism, or we will emphasize works apart from grace, and descend into Pelagianism. Instead, we must maintain the biblical balance between the two. As C.S. Lewisonce observed, asking which is most necessary, faith or works, is “like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary.”[4]And finally, Cardinal John Henry Newman, an ex-Anglican, reminds us that “faith alone can make works living; works alone can make faith living. Take away either, and you take away both; – he alone has faith who has works, – he alone has works who has faith.”

[1]Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, 19-20.

[2]Council of Orange, Canon 20, A.D. 529.

[3]Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Chapter 16, January 13, 1547.

[4]C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1943), 129.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

Francis

 

[look3467]

Hi, Francis
You have well stated the argument of faith and works. And I agree wholeheartedly.

Abraham had faith and works, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.

Did that make Him saved? Not yet, for it was reckoned unto him as though he were saved, but not yet, as Jesus had not come to give the gift of salvation.

Abraham is considered the father of faith, and by faith are we also considered saved by the blood of Jesus.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

We both understand the saving grace brought about by Jesus and our faith in Him begetting salvation.

What I am referring to is works without faith, which are as hay and stubble that when tried by fire will burn and suffer loss.

Works apart from faith is what the judgment in the flesh is about, but works in Christ, or Christ’s works in us, have no judgment.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Walking is something done while in the flesh, so blessings and losses are judged here on earth and not in the here after.

Our reward is Jesus, Jesus’ reward is His inheritance: Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Knowing these things then: 2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Falling from eternal salvation? Nah! Only from grace: out of favor.

Jesus’ sacrifice had to include every dead and living soul for His work to be (7) complete.

If by one man sin entered the world, then by one man life was given to the world.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Just think, if Jesus were the first man Adam, what would be the condition of mankind? No death!

Likewise after the similitude of the first Adam, Jesus being the second Adam brought forth life.

But, because we’re in the flesh, behavior is a problem, and shall be dealt with in the flesh.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Pax]

AJ,

You have agreed with much but still fail to recognize what we are getting at. If God gives the grace of salvation for faith and works, then all of the glory goes to God even though it is my faith and my works. The “my” part merely refers the faith and works that God has worked in “me.” Should I abandoned the faith as an apostate as described in Hebrews 6:6 or as described in 2 Peter 2:15-22, I will be lost but there is still glory in God and His grace. Should I fail to do the works prompted and enabled by grace described in Eph 2:10, then I will be lost but there is still glory in God and his grace. If I keep the faith and have the endurance called for in Matthew 10:22 and as encouraged by Paul in
2 Timothy 2:12, then I do so by God’s grace. No matter what, all the glory goes to God.

That is why Paul says in 2 Cor 3:5, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God,” It is for this same reason that we are told in Acts 2:17 that, “’…God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;’” In the book of Acts we are also told about Peter and John curing the man that was lame from birth. When the people marveled at the miracle, Peter says to them, “Men of Israel, why do you wonder at this, or why do you stare at us, as though by our own power or piety we had made him walk?”[Acts 3:12]. Peter shows that the miracle is not by his or John’s own power or works.

Everything is by the power of God’s grace. Grace is the great enabler. After all, look at what Paul says in Romans concerning the unregenerated man and how all are under the power of original sin. In Romans 3:9 Paul says, “I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin.” How are we to be rescued and made “free” from this bondage?
In Romans 8:2-4 Paul gives us the answer by saying, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has **set me free ** from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

If we sow in the flesh we reap corruption; if we sow in the Spirit we reap eternal life.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

This is Catholic teaching. This is grace. This is salvation by grace alone, solely upon the merits of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion, death and resurrection, by faith and works but not by faith alone.

Obviously, no one is saved without the salvific work of Christ upon the cross. No one else’s blood provides salvation. Everyone knows this, and it is improper to attempt to focus on this area of agreement as if this is the area of difference. To fairly examine the differences between Catholics and non-Catholics it is necessary to examine the differences that really exist.

The real difference between Catholic and non-Catholic teaching on grace boils down to the understandings on the “power” associated with God’s favor/grace. Non-Catholic teaching denies the power of God’s grace in terms of works and salvation. Justification is perhaps God’s greatest work and it is a work of grace done in us that regenerates us and empowers us to do his will.

The OT has a wonderful verse that puts this into perspective. In Isaiah 55:11 God tells us, “…so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and succeed in the thing for which I sent it.” God justifies us, He makes us holy, He sanctifies us, and He frees us from committing sin[John 8:33-36]. This is how “the souls of just men made perfect” as described in Hebrews 12:23 is accomplished, and why nothing unclean can enter heaven[Rev 21:27]. The work of Jesus Christ not only covers our sins, but it cleanses us of our sins. The work of Jesus Christ not only cleanses us from sin, but also frees us from being slaves to sin. We are not only freed from the slavery of sin, but we are enabled to live in Christ and walk in the Spirit of righteousness.

This is precisely why we are told in the Book of Revelation 19:7-9, “Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure”-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.” Connect this verse with Jesus compares heaven to a wedding feast. In this parable Jesus says in Matthew 22:11-14, “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[StCsDavid]

Presbyterians can be a particulary tough lot to make much headway with as they also have this notion that they are part of the “elect.” There’s a certain amount of personal security and I dare say a touch of arrogance that comes from presuming one’s salvation; thus they are less likely to hear the truth even when it’s spelled out in plain sight for them. Prayer, prayer, and more prayer is really all you can do. That’s probably not nice to stereotype, and I hope I haven’t offended any of my Christian brethren of Presbyterian bent, but that’s been my experience. While their doctrine is not in full communion, as a group, they tend to know their docrine pretty well, which is one thing I greatly respect about their approach to faith. That also makes them even tougher nuts to crack.

In reality, with some doctrinal tweaking here and there, they’re actually fairliy close to Catholicism, but I fear they will never accept the authority of the Chruch. Until they do that they can never reliquish thier sola scriptura mentality which limits their ability to experience the full beauty of the gift Christ has given His people…the Eucharist.

 

[Pax]

look3467:

Hi, Francis
You have well stated the argument of faith and works. And I agree wholeheartedly.
…

…

What I am referring to is works without faith, which are as hay and stubble that when tried by fire will burn and suffer loss.

Works apart from faith is what the judgment in the flesh is about, but works in Christ, or Christ’s works in us, have no judgment.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

…
…

Falling from eternal salvation? Nah! Only from grace: out of favor.

Peace>>>AJ

Agreed…works outside of faith have no value whatsoever in the eyes of God. There is, however, judgment of works within the body of Christ and this has been amply demonstrated in prior posts.

Falling from eternal salvation? Scripture is unequivocal in this regard and we can, indeed, fall from salvation. This is made abundantly clear in verses that have already been cited, but I will give you a few more.

Revelation 22:18-19
"I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Psalm 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.

Matthew 24: 9-10
"Then they will hand you over to be tortured and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name. Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another.

Rev 3:4-5
Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Rev 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:27
But nothing unclean shall enter it, **nor any one ** who practices abomination or falsehood, **but only those ** who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Matthew 24:12-13
And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

So not everyone will be saved and some may have their names blotted out of the Book of Life. No one, even a believer, that practices abomination or falsehood will be in the Book of Life. Their names may have been in the Book of Life, but have been blotted out. And when the Book of Life and the other books are opened at the final judgment **all are judged ** by what they had done and some of these are thrown into the lake of fire. Salvation can be lost.

If salvation could not be lost, then God would have to remove his gracious gift of free will and there is nothing in scripture to suggest that God ever did such a thing. Man is free to choose and accept Christ through God’s gracious gift or man is free to reject Christ. If a man accepts Christ there is no reason why he cannot later turn away from Christ. If this were not true, then there would be no mention of falling away or of apostasy as stated in Hebrews 6:6. Apostasy, by definition, means to “renounce” your profession of faith and Christian beliefs.

In 1 Peter 2:21, the apostle talks about how serious it is for a saved person to fall away and return to the sins and evils of the world. Peter says, “For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.” This is really important and Peter could not have said this if there was no possiblity of losing your salvation. The fact that he says that it would be better for these people to “have never known” the way of righteousness before turning away from God says a lot about losing your salvation. This means that their punishment in hell will be worse than that of those that never were believers to begin with.