Saved by grace?

[Colorad007]

Is it correct to say that we are saved by the Grace of God alone? I understand all of the polemics surrounding that contention, that date all the way back to the Reformation. But I’m convinced that there isn’t such an enormous gap between Protestants and Catholics about this when you really get down to brass tacks.

For example, it wouldn’t be technically correct to say that Baptism saves, because it is the Grace conveyed through Baptism and not the Baptism itself that leads a soul to Heaven. Right? And even the whole “works vs. faith” debate shouldn’t really be a big debate at all. If we’re able to do anything good at all, it has absolutely nothing to do with us, but is entirely the work of, as St. Paul put it, Christ living in us (Phil. 4:13). Whatever the salvific potential of those works, both Protestants and Catholics agree that it is God’s Grace that leads us to do them. The primary difference I can perceive is that Calvinistic-leaning Christians tend to believe that there isn’t even a cooperative effort by Man, but rather it is totally God working without man’s free will consenting to Grace.

I was listening to a fellow Catholic talk about Protestant justification–he emphasizing the importance of free will and how we can freely contravene God’s will and plan (by sinning, I suppose). But I can’t see how we can ever “thwart” God’s plan for the world. Salvation and the Christian life is all about abandoning ourselves to God’s Grace and His will. The Sacraments efficaciously convey that Grace, but without that Grace they can hardly be called Sacraments at all.

Is all of that heresy, or is this essentially what the Church teaches? Moreover, is the difference between Protestants and Catholics about all of this exaggerated a bit?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Is it correct to say that we are saved by the Grace of God alone? I understand all of the polemics surrounding that contention, that date all the way back to the Reformation. But I’m convinced that there isn’t such an enormous gap between Protestants and Catholics about this when you really get down to brass tacks.

Is all of that heresy, or is this essentially what the Church teaches? Moreover, is the difference between Protestants and Catholics about all of this exaggerated a bit?

There is no exaggeration, but a huge canyon between historic Protestant and official Catholic teaching in this department.

For one, each side defines grace very differently, the Catholic side defines grace according to Scripture and Church Fathers, while Protestants (especially Calvinists and Lutherans) define grace as Pelagians. Grace is God’s life working within us, literally transforming us, where as for Protestants it is merely God’s external favor - but if that’s the case, then when Scripture says Jesus was “full of grace and truth” (Jn 1:14) and filled with the Holy Spirit as Jesus lived an exemplary Christian life, then this is impossible per Protestant thought (e.g. they say we cannot ‘cooperate’ with grace and that sinless humans don’t need grace - oops!).

See the link in my signature for the Protestant view of justification and why it’s not biblical at all.

 

[Carlan]

Is it correct to say that we are saved by the Grace of God alone? I understand all of the polemics surrounding that contention, that date all the way back to the Reformation. But I’m convinced that there isn’t such an enormous gap between Protestants and Catholics about this when you really get down to brass tacks.

For example, it wouldn’t be technically correct to say that Baptism saves, because it is the Grace conveyed through Baptism and not the Baptism itself that leads a soul to Heaven. Right? And even the whole “works vs. faith” debate shouldn’t really be a big debate at all. If we’re able to do anything good at all, it has absolutely nothing to do with us, but is entirely the work of, as St. Paul put it, Christ living in us (Phil. 4:13). Whatever the salvific potential of those works, both Protestants and Catholics agree that it is God’s Grace that leads us to do them. The primary difference I can perceive is that Calvinistic-leaning Christians tend to believe that there isn’t even a cooperative effort by Man, but rather it is totally God working without man’s free will consenting to Grace.

I was listening to a fellow Catholic talk about Protestant justification–he emphasizing the importance of free will and how we can freely contravene God’s will and plan (by sinning, I suppose). But I can’t see how we can ever “thwart” God’s plan for the world. Salvation and the Christian life is all about abandoning ourselves to God’s Grace and His will. The Sacraments efficaciously convey that Grace, but without that Grace they can hardly be called Sacraments at all.

Is all of that heresy, or is this essentially what the Church teaches? Moreover, is the difference between Protestants and Catholics about all of this exaggerated a bit?

Yes Colorad it is through God’s grace working in faith and love that saves us ultimately.
What separates us from our Protestant brothers is the fullness of Apostolic Truth.
It is God actual grace that draws us to Him to accept the redemption that Christ suffered for us by His death on the cross for our sin.
It is through Baptism that we are cleansed of original sin and made whole, Justified ,made one in Christ through the Trinity, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, sanctifying grace is poured into our soul , our souls being infused with his cleansing love and grace. /
We have been given the power, by all the gifts of our Baptism, to now continue in life to grow in holiness as Christ is holy. It is a life long process through the Apostolic Church in which we have been given the fullness of Revelation to reach our final salvation.

 

[captainmike]

Is it correct to say that we are saved by the Grace of God alone? I understand all of the polemics surrounding that contention, that date all the way back to the Reformation. But I’m convinced that there isn’t such an enormous gap between Protestants and Catholics about this when you really get down to brass tacks.

For example, it wouldn’t be technically correct to say that Baptism saves, because it is the Grace conveyed through Baptism and not the Baptism itself that leads a soul to Heaven. Right? And even the whole “works vs. faith” debate shouldn’t really be a big debate at all. If we’re able to do anything good at all, it has absolutely nothing to do with us, but is entirely the work of, as St. Paul put it, Christ living in us (Phil. 4:13). Whatever the salvific potential of those works, both Protestants and Catholics agree that it is God’s Grace that leads us to do them. The primary difference I can perceive is that Calvinistic-leaning Christians tend to believe that there isn’t even a cooperative effort by Man, but rather it is totally God working without man’s free will consenting to Grace.

I was listening to a fellow Catholic talk about Protestant justification–he emphasizing the importance of free will and how we can freely contravene God’s will and plan (by sinning, I suppose). But I can’t see how we can ever “thwart” God’s plan for the world. Salvation and the Christian life is all about abandoning ourselves to God’s Grace and His will. The Sacraments efficaciously convey that Grace, but without that Grace they can hardly be called Sacraments at all.

Is all of that heresy, or is this essentially what the Church teaches? Moreover, is the difference between Protestants and Catholics about all of this exaggerated a bit?

thank you for posting this. as a former protestant, i have long suspected that the difference between catholics and protestants re what it takes to be saved is mere semantics. the only arguable difference i perceive is this: catholics seem to believe that it is possible to lose one’s salvation, by committing a mortal sin and then not repenting for doing so. but, i have a very hard time conceiving of a Christian who would commit such a sin and then refuse to repent. does such a person really exist? if not, what is the difference between the protestant and catholic?

isn’t it the case that if, on judgment day, God asks us, “Why should I let you into my kingdom,” we–Catholics and Protestants alike–will all answer, “Because your son died for me.” will any of us really mention any good work we’ve done? i seriously doubt it.

 

[King_Lazy]

Is it correct to say that we are saved by the Grace of God alone?

Yes. Sola gratia, or salvation by grace alone, was affirmed by the Catholic Church in 529 AD, almost 1,000 years before the Reformation.

As for faith vs works, it’s important insofar as Protestants accuse us of “works-based salvation,” which is false. The Catholic Church condemns this wicked doctrine.

But “faith alone” is a problem too. It depends on the sect of Protestantism, since it’s such a melting pot of various heresies. We can actually agree with some Protestants if faith is understood to include works. But in other sects, “faith alone” is understood in such a way that merely the profession of faith is considered to be sufficient for salvation, and there are other errors from Calvinism and similar theologies which suggest that once someone is saved, they’re always saved.

The difference between Catholics and Protestants isn’t exaggerated, I don’t think. We have a lot of common ground, and much more with some denominations than with others, but many forms of Protestantism contain dangerous errors with regard to salvation. As for your own understanding of salvation and of the sacraments, it’s difficult to know exactly what you are saying so I can’t really say whether what you’re saying is compatible with Catholic teaching or not, but I get a feeling that if it is acceptable, it might be pushing the boundaries.

The Catholic Church hasn’t got a specific set of doctrines to reconcile grace and free will, but there are several orthodox schools of thought and some heterodox ones that have been condemned. My favourite, and possibly the simplest (and as far as I am aware, still orthodox) attempt at reconciling grace and free will is in understanding grace as being something that will infallibly achieve its result (for example, a good deed), provided somebody does not actively oppose it with their free will. I find that an elegant explanation, as there is no merit in being passive and doing nothing with one’s will, thus letting grace achieve its effect, but one can certainly culpably resist the workings of grace. And so, “co-operation” with grace is merely passive submission. Nobody can boast about that. But “resistance” is an active rebellion against the will of God, and can be culpable. The matter certainly isn’t settled, however, neither in Catholicism nor in Protestantism.

 

[Trishie]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
regarding grace and good works

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm

And from Scripture:
Take the case, my brothers of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty’, without giving them these bare necessities of llife, then what good is that?: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead.
This is the way to talk to people of that kind:'You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds–now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.

You believe in one God–that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Do realise, you senseless man, that faith without works is useless. You surely know that Abraham our Father was justified by his deed, because he offered Isaac on the altar? There you see it; faith and good deeds were working together; his faith became perfect by what he did. This is what scripture really means when it says: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was counted as making him justified; and that is why he was called the friend of God. You see now that it is by doing something good, and not only by believing, that a man is justified." [James 2: 14-24]

Also Matthew 7:21, Matthew 7, 21, 2 Corinthians 10:15,Galatians 6:7-9, Luke 6:45-49,

Phil 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

 

[Carlan]

is the difference between Protestants and Catholics about all of this exaggerated a bit?

I would say it wouldn’t be if our separated Protestant brothers would accept the fullness of Truth revealed by Christ through his Apostolic Church. We pray for the unity of Christ’s flock everyday in the Mass.
Peace, Carlan

 

[clmowry]

Is it correct to say that we are saved by the Grace of God alone?

Yes. (Though I’m hesitant to use the word “alone” in any theological discussion.)

There’s a tract out there something like “Tip toe through the TULIPS” [or something like that] that gets into a dicusses of how some protestant teachings can be reconciled with Catholic teaching.

When we get into the “Faith Alone” discussion, I think you are on the right track.

We can all agree that we are all saved by Gods Grace alone. But just like the Faith alone statement, we have to make sure that we have a shared definition of “Grace” or “Faith” before we can come to agreement.

I think you will find that definitions vary dramatically.

Chuck

 

[Carlan]

Yes. (Though I’m hesitant to use the word “alone” in any theological discussion.)

There’s a tract out there something like “Tip toe through the TULIPS” [or something like that] that gets into a dicusses of how some protestant teachings can be reconciled with Catholic teaching.

When we get into the “Faith Alone” discussion, I think you are on the right track.

We can all agree that we are all saved by Gods Grace alone. But just like the Faith alone statement, we have to make sure that we have a shared definition of “Grace” or “Faith” before we can come to agreement.

I think you will find that definitions vary dramatically.

Chuck

Peace, Carlan

 

[Colorad007]

Yes. Sola gratia, or salvation by grace alone, was affirmed by the Catholic Church in 529 AD, almost 1,000 years before the Reformation.

As for faith vs works, it’s important insofar as Protestants accuse us of “works-based salvation,” which is false. The Catholic Church condemns this wicked doctrine.

But “faith alone” is a problem too. It depends on the sect of Protestantism, since it’s such a melting pot of various heresies. We can actually agree with some Protestants if faith is understood to include works. But in other sects, “faith alone” is understood in such a way that merely the profession of faith is considered to be sufficient for salvation, and there are other errors from Calvinism and similar theologies which suggest that once someone is saved, they’re always saved.

The difference between Catholics and Protestants isn’t exaggerated, I don’t think. We have a lot of common ground, and much more with some denominations than with others, but many forms of Protestantism contain dangerous errors with regard to salvation. As for your own understanding of salvation and of the sacraments, it’s difficult to know exactly what you are saying so I can’t really say whether what you’re saying is compatible with Catholic teaching or not, but I get a feeling that if it is acceptable, it might be pushing the boundaries.

The Catholic Church hasn’t got a specific set of doctrines to reconcile grace and free will, but there are several orthodox schools of thought and some heterodox ones that have been condemned. My favourite, and possibly the simplest (and as far as I am aware, still orthodox) attempt at reconciling grace and free will is in understanding grace as being something that will infallibly achieve its result (for example, a good deed), provided somebody does not actively oppose it with their free will. I find that an elegant explanation, as there is no merit in being passive and doing nothing with one’s will, thus letting grace achieve its effect, but one can certainly culpably resist the workings of grace. And so, “co-operation” with grace is merely passive submission. Nobody can boast about that. But “resistance” is an active rebellion against the will of God, and can be culpable. The matter certainly isn’t settled, however, neither in Catholicism nor in Protestantism.

The point about the Sacraments was merely that it is grace that makes a physical act, like pouring water over a baby’s head–what we call Baptism–actually efficacious. It is the grace that makes a Sacrament a Sacrament.

Nevertheless, I appreciate what you are saying. I tried to note that Calvinistic theology tends to wander a bit farther from the Catholic understanding of grace than, say, your run-of-the-mill American evangelical Protestant, who is much closer to the Catholic approach to it all (or, at least, it seems to be so). Irresistable grace and once-saved-always-saved are distinctly Calvinistic approaches to grace, which have been picked up by other Protestants (I don’t know what Luther had to say about all of it). And they are where the gap between Protestants and Catholics probably is the widest.

However, I think that your average evangelical and your average Catholic are still so much closer than the theology books imply. When you approach things at the street (or pew) level, it’s all much more similar. That really encourages me, and it should encourage all Catholics about the possibility of real unity.

 

[King_Lazy]

The point about the Sacraments was merely that it is grace that makes a physical act, like pouring water over a baby’s head–what we call Baptism–actually efficacious. It is the grace that makes a Sacrament a Sacrament.

In that case, you are absolutely correct. And it is grace itself that allows us to make use of a sacrament.

Nevertheless, I appreciate what you are saying. I tried to note that Calvinistic theology tends to wander a bit farther from the Catholic understanding of grace than, say, your run-of-the-mill American evangelical Protestant, who is much closer to the Catholic approach to it all (or, at least, it seems to be so).

Certainly, it is true that many Protestants try to understand “faith” as being a “living faith” as opposed to the dead faith without works mentioned in Peter 2:17. And in practice, many strive to have a living faith to much the same effect as Catholics. Given that Protestantism is based so much on one’s own interpretation, however, some hold dangerous ideas that can lead to the sin of presumption, “My sin means nothing because I have faith and I have been saved and washed in the blood of Christ,” or the sin of pride, “I have faith and therefore God owes me salvation.” The Bible is quite clear that both of these positions are false, and many Protestants do indeed, by the grace of God, avoid falling into these errors.

However, I think that your average evangelical and your average Catholic are still so much closer than the theology books imply. When you approach things at the street (or pew) level, it’s all much more similar. That really encourages me, and it should encourage all Catholics about the possibility of real unity.

Well, the average Catholic knows little about his faith, unfortunately. But I agree with you that Bible-believing Protestants do try to see Scripture as a whole and despite avidly affirming some doctrines that are on the face of it erroneous, such as salvation by faith alone, they do attempt to understand them in a manner that can be to a degree compatible with Catholic teaching.

While it would be wonderful for the many faithful evangelical Protestant Christians to be united with the Catholic Church, as many of them possess a healthy and vibrant faith, it does seem difficult to achieve in practice, as they aren’t united among themselves. Evangelical Christianity is an umbrella term for Christians belonging to many denominations that teach widely differing doctrines. Nevertheless, one can wholeheartedly praise and co-operate with Evangelicals for their orthodoxy in matters concerning morality and hope that one day we may somehow be brought into unity, for nothing is impossible with God.

 

[Carlan]

God is forever there offering us his gift of actual grace, I am reminded of Francis Thompson’s poem the Hound of Heaven ,however it takes free will on our part to respond.Yes, we are saved by grace alone ! That is the beginning, the Church teaches us that justification is conferred on us at Baptism…
Peace, Carlan