Saved by work

[mikekle]

Casting out demons has nothing to do with the ability of the person, it is God who works through the person to carry out such acts. It is not the individual who is achieving this, it is God.

God’s plan for salvation includes using all sorts of people to carry out His plan, good people, bad people and people in between. The Bible is full of examples of God using seemingly evil men to carry out His plan for salvation.

That is interesting, I honestly did not know this. I think it may explain something Ive been wondering about, Ive posted some threads about the TV evangelist, Leroy Jenkins, Ive read a lot of information about him and his past and watched many of his shows, according to many people, he has indeed cured people of various things over the years, but he also has had his share of legal problems (strangely president Carter granted him a pardon in the 70s).

Many people on the other hand claim he is a fake, since he has had so many problems, but since God can grant ‘unworthy’ people certain gifts, Im now thinking he may be one of those.

Since you do believe God grants unworthy people these gifts, can you think of some others who have fit this description?

*****Im sorry, I meant this to be in reply to Vico, post #5

 

[Vico]

…

Since you do believe God grants unworthy people these gifts, can you think of some others who have fit this description?

*****Im sorry, I meant this to be in reply to Vico, post #5

Matthew 24
24 There will be false Christs and false prophets, who will rise up and shew great signs and wonders, so that if it were possible, even the elect would be deceived.

Revelation 16
12 The sixth angel emptied his bowl on the great river Euphrates. Its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East.[a] 13 I saw three unclean spirits like frogs** come from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet. 14 These were demonic spirits who performed signs. **

 

[Brendan_64]

Let’s cut to the chase. What exactly do I say that you don’t agree with?

This:

Clear you mind of all. Read the entire N. T. (except Revelation) and tell me what you come away with? Are you telling me you can’t trust yourself to understadn what Jesus wants of you?

It is not as simple as just reading the New Testament and understanding it, there are a whole raft of different ‘understandings’ of the New Testament, many of which are contradictory.

You cannot simply take an approach along the lines of, “I have my Bible, I have my intellect, I have the Holy Spirit to guide me in my interpretation, what else do I need?”

It is the role of the Magisterium of the Church to authentically interpret Scripture. Individuals are not free to be their own arbiter of what Scripture means. Protestants do that, hence the whole raft of different Protestant sects.

 

[frangiuliano115]

This:

It is not as simple as just reading the New Testament and understanding it, there are a whole raft of different ‘understandings’ of the New Testament, many of which are contradictory.

You cannot simply take an approach along the lines of, “I have my Bible, I have my intellect, I have the Holy Spirit to guide me in my interpretation, what else do I need?”

It is the role of the Magisterium of the Church to authentically interpret Scripture. Individuals are not free to be their own arbiter of what Scripture means. Protestants do that, hence the whole raft of different Protestant sects.

I asked you what I say that you object to and you replied:

Originally Posted by frangiuliano115 View Post
Clear you mind of all. Read the entire N. T. (except Revelation) and tell me what you come away with? Are you telling me you can’t trust yourself to understadn what Jesus wants of you?

But this is not a statement of doctrine that you could disagree with. I’m just trying to say that you could read the N.T. and STILL understand what it is you’re supposed to do to be in line with what Jesus taught.

The church is needed for many things and it is to go out and preach the gospel to the world and baptize. What I’m saying is that I don’t need the church to be saved. If the church never existed, but only the Church, do you think you could still be going to heaven if you believed in Christ and followed HIS rules?

You have to admit the church added a lot of “rules.” Remember the thread about the grape before communion? Thus the 1 hour of abstaining from food rule. You think this rule was established by Jesus? See Mathew 15:1 to about 10.

Must go.

 

[guanophore]

Are we sanctified by carrying out our normal duties?

No, we are sanctified by grace, through faith, as we carry out our normal duties.

 In a retreat recently I discussed with the priest the relationship between Opus Dei and Pelagianism.  Unfortunately we seemed to disagree. Are we sanctified by carrying out our normal duties? The priest emphasized that with effort we can grow in God’s love, with this I disagreed.  Were his views Catholic teaching? It  seemed strange to me, as grace seems to be ignored in his views about living the Christian life, and looking on the web I can get little help.

Do others see my problem?

Yes, this is Catholic teaching, although perhaps he was not clear enough that the only “work” we can do that helps us gro in God’s love is to place our faith in HIm, and walk in His grace.

2 Peter 1:5-15New International Version (NIV)

2 Pet. 5 For this very reason, **make every effort **to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

If one looks into the context of this passage, one can find the “reason” upon which it is based (grace). When our efforts emanate from grace, through faith, they can bring us closer to God’s love.

Are we made acceptable to God by doing our daily work? I try to avoid terms such as righteousness and justification as these may carry unacceptable meanings.

Please help.

No, we are made acceptable to God in baptism, through which we are transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. We are acceptable to Him as we remain in His grace through faith. The works help us to do this.

 

[guanophore]

Did I say we don’t need the church? WHERE is the misunderstanding, I’d really like to know.

I think it is in the false dichotomy, and the way you ask your questions using it.

If priests disagree on some things, doesn’t this tell you that the official church teaching is not easy to grasp? I agree that we should refer to the CCC and the bible. But you keep posting the council of Trent. A lot has changed…

Fran

Fran, the infallible Teachings of Christ that are preseved infallbily in the Church by the Holy Spirit do not change.

Our understanding of the doctrines changes, but the doctrines do not.

Perhaps one reason you are misunderstood is this persistent proclamation you make that seems to state that the doctrines have changed?

 

[guanophore]

The church is needed for many things and it is to go out and preach the gospel to the world and baptize. What I’m saying is that I don’t need the church to be saved.

Jesus does not create what is not necessary, Fran. You may not accept the necessity of what He has established, but that does not change the facts.

If the church never existed, but only the Church, do you think you could still be going to heaven if you believed in Christ and followed HIS rules?

You are creating a false dichotomy based upon a fantasy.

The Truth is that Jesus did establish a Church, and built us into members of her. There is no separation between Jesus and HIs One Body, ,the Church.

You have to admit the church added a lot of “rules.” Remember the thread about the grape before communion? Thus the 1 hour of abstaining from food rule. You think this rule was established by Jesus?

Yes, I remember it vividly! During that discussion it became clear that you reject the authority put in place by Christ.

87 Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

The fast before communion is one of the directives given to us by the shepherds appointed over us.

It appears that you do not accept this direction with docility. Instead of understanding this as coming from Christ (in faith) you are pre-occupied with them being “crazy” and “silly” because they are “man made rules”.

Must go.

Perhaps you already have?

 

[NoelFitz]

Again, thanks for all the replies, although most of them do not address my concerns. So let me consider relevant contributions.

**#25 Guanophore, **
I think you are saying we are not justified by works, and thus agree with me. Is this your view?

#19 frangiuliano,
this seems to be among the most thoughtful replies and merits deep reflection. I read here 'if you ask an O.D. person, of course they’re going to tell you that works sanctify’. If they say this they are wrong. Work does not sanctify.

#18 Brendan 64,
the authors of Trent were very careful. So Trent said ‘If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification’ he is wrong. I agree, but to say one is not justified by work is different. Also just thinking one is saved is obviously not adequate. So Trent is answering a problem I am not posing.

Thus Trent is doing what I claim many contributors here are doing, replying to a differenct question from the one raised. Our politicians do the same thing, answer a simple query when a different difficult one is asked.

So again may I appeal to contributors to address my concerns?

At present it seems most would agree that it is Catholic teaching that we are not justified by works alone.

 

[sudy]

This article seems to explain the Catholic position pretty well.

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/salvation-in-catholicism/

 

[Vico]

Again, thanks for all the replies, although most of them do not address my concerns. So let me consider relevant contributions.

**#25 Guanophore, **
I think you are saying we are not justified by works, and thus agree with me. Is this your view?

#19 frangiuliano,
this seems to be among the most thoughtful replies and merits deep reflection. I read here 'if you ask an O.D. person, of course they’re going to tell you that works sanctify’. If they say this they are wrong. Work does not sanctify.

#18 Brendan 64,
the authors of Trent were very careful. So Trent said ‘If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification’ he is wrong. I agree, but to say one is not justified by work is different. Also just thinking one is saved is obviously not adequate. So Trent is answering a problem I am not posing.

Thus Trent is doing what I claim many contributors here are doing, replying to a differenct question from the one raised. Our politicians do the same thing, answer a simple query when a different difficult one is asked.

So again may I appeal to contributors to address my concerns?

At present it seems most would agree that it is Catholic teaching that we are not justified by works alone.

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church
25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[Vico]

…

Also there is merit and holiness to consider, which your priest may have been considering. The Catechism:

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called “mystical” because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - “the holy mysteries” - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

2028 “All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity” (LG 40 § 2). “Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none” (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.G 44, 300D).

 

[frangiuliano115]

This article seems to explain the Catholic position pretty well.

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/salvation-in-catholicism/

Read the whole link.

It’s great! Best I’ve ever read and explains everything perfectly.

I think the O.P. Will be happy to read it.

If i could just figure out how to do that link thing, I’ll post this instead of arguing with certain people!

Thanks for posting.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

This:

It is not as simple as just reading the New Testament and understanding it, there are a whole raft of different ‘understandings’ of the New Testament, many of which are contradictory.

You cannot simply take an approach along the lines of, “I have my Bible, I have my intellect, I have the Holy Spirit to guide me in my interpretation, what else do I need?”

It is the role of the Magisterium of the Church to authentically interpret Scripture. Individuals are not free to be their own arbiter of what Scripture means. Protestants do that, hence the whole raft of different Protestant sects.

Protestants don’t “do that.” Christianity is not on a person by person basis for them. This is nonsense!

“I have my bible, I have my intellect, I have the Holy Spirit, what else do I need?”

Yeah. What else do I need? This is what God is going to judge me on.

You see it’s not WHAT I believe - it’s WHO I believe.

“For I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.”
2 Timothy 1:12

I hope you read that link at vivacatholic that Sudy posted. it says it all.

Fran

 

[Bookcat]

Are we sanctified by carrying out our normal duties?

In a retreat recently I discussed with the priest the relationship between Opus Dei and Pelagianism. Unfortunately we seemed to disagree. Are we sanctified by carrying out our normal duties? The priest emphasized that with effort we can grow in God’s love, with this I disagreed. Were his views Catholic teaching? It seemed strange to me, as grace seems to be ignored in his views about living the Christian life, and looking on the web I can get little help.

Do others see my problem?

Are we made acceptable to God by doing our daily work? I try to avoid terms such as righteousness and justification as these may carry unacceptable meanings.

Please help.

The Church Teaches that we enter into a state of initial justification (and thus sanctification) by grace via faith and Baptism…we do not earn such by any “work” be it ordinary or extraordinary. Such is by Grace - nothing we do “earns it” it is via the death and resurrection of Christ…we cannot “put ourselves by our work into this reality”…tis grace…gift…

One is then living in Christ…walking by the Spirit as Paul puts it …and one yes then by grace and ones cooperation with grace - such as in ones daily work and other ways - grow in holiness - one can become more holy. God is still of course “at work” of course in such.

 

[guanophore]

Read the whole link.

It’s great! Best I’ve ever read and explains everything perfectly.

I think the O.P. Will be happy to read it.

If i could just figure out how to do that link thing, I’ll post this instead of arguing with certain people!

Thanks for posting.

Fran

But I would SO miss our arguments!

It’s easy, just find the page you want, copy the url, then go back to your reply. Click on the world icon at the top of the editing screen with the chain under it. A box will open, and you can past the address.

 

[guanophore]

Protestants don't "do that."  Christianity is not on a person by person basis for them.  This is nonsense!

“I have my bible, I have my intellect, I have the Holy Spirit, what else do I need?”

Yeah. What else do I need?

Many of them do. Many have a “Just Jesus and me, nobody else, just us”. They don’t affiliate with a Church and are not held accountable by anyone. I am not sure what you mean by “Christianity is not on a person by person basis for them.” but most adhere to Sola Scriptura, and believe the Holy Spirit guides them when they read the Scriptures.

This is what God is going to judge me on.

You see it’s not WHAT I believe - it’s WHO I believe.

“For I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.”
2 Timothy 1:12

Fran

You are right that you are responsible for your own soul (we all are) and that we will all be judged in accordance with what was revealed to us.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Many of them do. Many have a “Just Jesus and me, nobody else, just us”. They don’t affiliate with a Church and are not held accountable by anyone. I am not sure what you mean by “Christianity is not on a person by person basis for them.” but most adhere to Sola Scriptura, and believe the Holy Spirit guides them when they read the Scriptures.

You are right that you are responsible for your own soul (we all are) and that we will all be judged in accordance with what was revealed to us.

Your first pp is solo scriptura. Literally there is no church involved and the person just reads the bible and has no other (name removed by moderator)ut.

Jesus didn’t mean for us to be alone like this. it’s important to be in a church community with others holding the same beliefs. It’s encouraging and helps us not to fall away.
OTOH, I do understand sola scriptura, which, of course, is the authority for mainline protestantism. They do have a church institution which interprets the bible, be it or be it not in accordance with the catholic church. This also creates a community and order.

Good Night.

 

[Cathoholic]

NoelFitz. You said:

My position is clear. We cannot grow in God’s love by our own efforts. We are not sanctified by carrying out our normal duties.

First of all, I agree with the statement: **“We cannot grow in God’s love by our own efforts.” ** The Church affirms this too.

But also consider your statement: “We are not sanctified by carrying out our normal duties.”

What kind of duties ARE you sanctified by then?

We are saved by the work of Christ through sanctification and belief (among other gifts such as supernatural hope and faith that we received along with supernatural charity at our Baptism). St. Paul puts the call to sanctification this way . . . .

2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and **belief **in the truth.

You can sow in the flesh (works on your own) or you can sow in the Spirit (grace works).

GALATIANS 6:7-8 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Notice again, you can sow to the flesh OR sow to the spirit

I think you are falsely “dichotomizing” grace and “working” NoelFitz.

Works and grace are not necessarily in opposition. Works and grace CAN be in opposition (such as Romans 11:6 where you rely on Old Covenant works of law, but there are other kinds of “works” too). But works and grace are not automatically in opposition.

Not ALL works are . . . . works “on your own efforts”.

To insist ALL works are on “your own” is a subtle denial of God at work IN YOU which IS a GRACE.

To insist ALL works are on “your own” is an implicit denial of the fact that “it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives IN ME” in Christians who are in a state of grace.

GALATIANS 2:20 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

PHILIPPIANS 4:13 13 I can do all things **in him **who strengthens me.

EPHESIANS 3:20-21 20 Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

HEBREWS 13:20a, 21 20a “Now may the God of peace . . . . equip you with everything good that you may do His will, **working in you **that which is pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2nd CORINTHIANS 9:8-10 8 And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written, “He scatters abroad, he gives to the poor; his righteousness endures for ever.” 10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

PHILIPPIANS 2:12-13 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

CCC 1997a Grace is a participation in the life of God. . . .

You said here:

QUOTE:
Approximately four replies claim we are not justified by works (using Reformation language), two disagree with this, while the remaining replies were off-topic.

WHO here on this thread said we are justified by works (in the sense of their OWN works)??

I didn’t see one person assert this here. (This is why I think you are accidentally conflating works of the flesh with works in and of the Holy Spirit in and through Christians NoelFitz). That is frequently a Protestant notion (but not a Catholic teaching).

 

[guanophore]

Again, thanks for all the replies, although most of them do not address my concerns. So let me consider relevant contributions.

**#25 Guanophore, **
I think you are saying we are not justified by works, and thus agree with me. Is this your view?

You are correct that I am saying we are not justified by works, but no, I do not agree with you. You have moved the bar! Your OP was about sanctification, not justification. I also disagree with this:

My position is clear. We are not sanctified by carrying out our normal duties.

This position is not consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

In fact, the opposite is true. We are sanctified as we approach every moment of every day in a state of grace, engaging in the works He has prepared for us from before the foundations of time.

Eph. 2 8nnFor by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship,** created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.**

If we fail to walk in them, we will fall from grace.

 

[NoelFitz]

Thanks for all the replies.

#39 guanophore.

You say I changed from sanctification to justification. If I confused these two I am sorry. Justification means being made right, just or acceptable in God’s sight. Sanctification means holiness, which means being in God’s love, which means God wishing us well. Merriam Webster defines sanctification as growing in divine grace as a result of Christian commitment after baptism or conversion. To me sanctification means being holy, also acceptable to God. I do not see clear distinctions.
We may disagree somewhat, but I hope both of us are within Catholic beliefs. Your views encourage me to study and reflect more.

#38 Cathoholic,

We are not sanctified by our duties, but by God’s grace. Perhaps I am being too simplistic. To get overall statistics I may have been less rigorous than I should have been.

#35 Guanophore,

I am pleased to fully agree with you. The URL sent is brilliant, being clear, understandable, precise and Catholic.

#34 Bookcat,

I agree fully with you. Thanks.

#29 Sudy

You wrote
'This article seems to explain the Catholic position pretty well.

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/s…n-catholicism/’

The website you recommend is excellent. It give the Catholic position (as far as I can see) brilliantly. I think it closes the thread, as it answers my queries.

So thanks Sudy, and also sincerest thanks to all who helped me in trying to understand better the faith and resolve my concerns. All the replies were given with sincerity and courtesy and were much appreciated.