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NoelFitz:
It is not an either/or situation NoelFitz.
It is a “Yes/And” paradigm. (We ARE sanctified by our daily duties when God CONTINUES to work in and through us).
We are given “talents” when we receive the Holy Spirit, and we expected to use these gifts (according to our state in life).
(More on the parable of the talents in the next post)
We work UNITED to God’s grace. That is the “cooperation” aspect (when we work WITH Him).
That’s WHY St. Paul warns us that we must cooperate with the grace we are given—lest we get that grace for no benefit (or receive the grace of God in vain).
“Working together with Him” = “Cooperating with Him”.
2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.
Being sanctified by our daily duties (NOT on our own, but UNITED to Christ) is part of the whole “Little Way” spirituality that one of the Doctors of the Church, St. Therese of Lisieux, exhorts us to!
Excerpt from St. Therese’s Life in the Carmel of Lisieux and the Influence of Her “Little Way” . . . .
The Council of Trent, Session 6
Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
Canon 3.
If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.
INITIALLY, that is true. But after we become “sons IN THE Son” through Baptism, what you are asserting becomes only a partial truth.
It is not an either/or situation NoelFitz.
It is a “Yes/And” paradigm. (We ARE sanctified by our daily duties when God CONTINUES to work in and through us).
We are given “talents” when we receive the Holy Spirit, and we expected to use these gifts (according to our state in life).
(More on the parable of the talents in the next post)
We work UNITED to God’s grace. That is the “cooperation” aspect (when we work WITH Him).
- Yes God makes the first move (God’s prevenient grace) with NO MERIT of our own (including our works not meriting AND our natural faith not meriting-more on that from Trent below).
- Yes God then justifies us by Christ’s work on Calvary, applied via Baptism. This “pours” supernatural faith, hope, and charity in us. In Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit and are justified.
- But now as justified children of God, God CONTINUES to justify us and we MUST COOPERATE with that (you CAN reject this) . . . . Now as justified children of God who now possess the gift of the Holy Spirit we MUST persevere in faith, hope, and charity according to our state in life (a “baby’s state is obviously different from a healthy adult’s state in life). We MUST COOPERATE with this gift of grace otherwise we receive this grace in vain!
That’s WHY St. Paul warns us that we must cooperate with the grace we are given—lest we get that grace for no benefit (or receive the grace of God in vain).
“Working together with Him” = “Cooperating with Him”.
2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.
Being sanctified by our daily duties (NOT on our own, but UNITED to Christ) is part of the whole “Little Way” spirituality that one of the Doctors of the Church, St. Therese of Lisieux, exhorts us to!
Excerpt from St. Therese’s Life in the Carmel of Lisieux and the Influence of Her “Little Way” . . . .
(Above excerpt from CARMELITE SPIRITUALITY by PAUL MARIE DE LA CROIX Here)
The Council of Trent, Session 6
Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.
Canon 3.
If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.
C
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(Paragraph and parenthetical addition on Matthew 25 below mine)
MATTHEW 25:14-15a . . . . 14 "For it (the judgment day) will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. . . .
What is going to happen with these servants who receive, without merit, God’s grace, I mean, “Talents” from the Master?
Below would be an example if the “I don’t HAVE TO cooperate” motif were true . . .
NOT MATTHEW 25:14-33 (Phantom Verse) "For it (the judgment day) will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
He who had received the five talents got overtaken by the Master who took back the five talents and the Master Himself then traded for five talents more instead of the servant cooperating with the talents GIVEN him by the Master.
So also, he who had the two talents made nothing except when the Master removed them and traded for two more.
But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. . . . .
And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents and YOU got five talents more; I didn’t make anything (with YOUR talents you GAVE me that I didn’t merit) but you did.
His master said to him, 'Well done, for not needing to cooperate with the grace, I mean talents I gave you.
The same with the servant who received two talents.
He who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; and I knew I didn’t HAVE to cooperate with the grace, I mean talents you gave me. Here you have what is yours.’ But his master answered him, OK. Fair enough. Since you don’t NEED to cooperate I guess that’s that.
You are saved anyway!”
And cast the worthless servant into Heaven anyway because he didn’t NEED to cooperate with my talents that I gave him. Because after all, it is ALL MY work and NONE of this guy cooperating with me.
Now let’s find out what REALLY happens with these servants who receive, without merit, God’s grace, or “Talents” from the Master?
MATTHEW 25:14-32 14 "For it (the judgment day) will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more. 17 So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.
29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . .
The Trent quote in post 42, is a reminder, we cannot do this on our own and devoid of grace.
But WITH God’s grace great things become possible.
As Jimmy Akin has said (I am paraphrasing): “Apart from Me (Jesus), you can do nothing. But with Him, you CAN do some stuff.”
MATTHEW 25:14-15a . . . . 14 "For it (the judgment day) will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. . . .
What is going to happen with these servants who receive, without merit, God’s grace, I mean, “Talents” from the Master?
Below would be an example if the “I don’t HAVE TO cooperate” motif were true . . .
NOT MATTHEW 25:14-33 (Phantom Verse) "For it (the judgment day) will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
He who had received the five talents got overtaken by the Master who took back the five talents and the Master Himself then traded for five talents more instead of the servant cooperating with the talents GIVEN him by the Master.
So also, he who had the two talents made nothing except when the Master removed them and traded for two more.
But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. . . . .
And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents and YOU got five talents more; I didn’t make anything (with YOUR talents you GAVE me that I didn’t merit) but you did.
His master said to him, 'Well done, for not needing to cooperate with the grace, I mean talents I gave you.
The same with the servant who received two talents.
He who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; and I knew I didn’t HAVE to cooperate with the grace, I mean talents you gave me. Here you have what is yours.’ But his master answered him, OK. Fair enough. Since you don’t NEED to cooperate I guess that’s that.
You are saved anyway!”
And cast the worthless servant into Heaven anyway because he didn’t NEED to cooperate with my talents that I gave him. Because after all, it is ALL MY work and NONE of this guy cooperating with me.
Now let’s find out what REALLY happens with these servants who receive, without merit, God’s grace, or “Talents” from the Master?
MATTHEW 25:14-32 14 "For it (the judgment day) will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more. 17 So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, 'You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.
29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . .
The Trent quote in post 42, is a reminder, we cannot do this on our own and devoid of grace.
But WITH God’s grace great things become possible.
As Jimmy Akin has said (I am paraphrasing): “Apart from Me (Jesus), you can do nothing. But with Him, you CAN do some stuff.”
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
FOR CATHOHOLIC
I think I like being a Christian INITIALLY
and then things get complicated, so…
Could you put into your own words what you want to say?
Sometimes it’s good to use supporting scripture, but you sound like a talking bible!!
What do you suppose Mathew 25:29 means?
Re taking away even what one has.
Fran
I think I like being a Christian INITIALLY
and then things get complicated, so…
Could you put into your own words what you want to say?
Sometimes it’s good to use supporting scripture, but you sound like a talking bible!!
What do you suppose Mathew 25:29 means?
Re taking away even what one has.
Fran
V
Vico
Guest
**Matthew 25:29 **
29 *For to every one that hath, shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away.
Haydock Commentary
Ver. 29. To every one that hath, &c. That is, who hath, so as to have made good use of, or to have improved, what was committed to his trust and management. See the notes Matthew xiii, ver. 12. (Witham) — When those who are gifted with the grace of understanding for the benefit of others, refuse to make a proper use of the gift, that grace is of consequence withdrawn; whereas had they employed it with zeal and diligence, they would have received additional graces. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxix.) — This, moreover, shews that God never requires of men more than he has enabled them to perform
**Matthew 13:12 **
12 *For he that hath, to him shall be given, and he shall abound, but he that hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Haydock Commentary
Ver. 12. But he that hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath. We read again, (Matthew xxv. 29.) That also which he seemeth to have, shall be taken away; and in St. Luke, (Chap. viii. 18.) That also which he thinketh he hath. One passage helps to expound another: so that each of these texts, with a little reflection, will be found true; and such a truth, as ought to be a subject of fear and apprehension to all that are negligent and indolent in the service of God. For, as St. Augustine observes, they who have received graces and favours from God, and have not made good use and profited by them, they may be said not to have them, although they are not yet take from them. And why? but because they make no more use of them, than if they had them not. See the parables of the talents, Matthew xxv, and Luke xix. (Witham) — He that hath, to him shall be given the knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God. But such as are incredulous, and resist my words, like the Pharisees and other Jews, so far from being enriched with my spiritual gifts in my kingdom, shall even be deprived of the benefits they now possess. Thus the Jews were deprived of their temple, priesthood, kingdom, and even the true worship of God. (St. Jerome) — They rejected Jesus Christ, the fountain and corner-stone of virtue; all therefore they had acquired, or possessed, shall be taken from them, and given to the apostles. (St. Jerome) — Whoever has a desire of complying with the divine precepts, that desire shall not only be increased, but all other virtues shall be added unto him; but if he be devoid of this desire, the virtues he already possesses, or seems to possess, shall be taken from him, not that God will deprive him of these without cause, but he will render himself unworthy of them. (St. Chrysostom)
29 *For to every one that hath, shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away.
Haydock Commentary
Ver. 29. To every one that hath, &c. That is, who hath, so as to have made good use of, or to have improved, what was committed to his trust and management. See the notes Matthew xiii, ver. 12. (Witham) — When those who are gifted with the grace of understanding for the benefit of others, refuse to make a proper use of the gift, that grace is of consequence withdrawn; whereas had they employed it with zeal and diligence, they would have received additional graces. (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxix.) — This, moreover, shews that God never requires of men more than he has enabled them to perform
**Matthew 13:12 **
12 *For he that hath, to him shall be given, and he shall abound, but he that hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Haydock Commentary
Ver. 12. But he that hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath. We read again, (Matthew xxv. 29.) That also which he seemeth to have, shall be taken away; and in St. Luke, (Chap. viii. 18.) That also which he thinketh he hath. One passage helps to expound another: so that each of these texts, with a little reflection, will be found true; and such a truth, as ought to be a subject of fear and apprehension to all that are negligent and indolent in the service of God. For, as St. Augustine observes, they who have received graces and favours from God, and have not made good use and profited by them, they may be said not to have them, although they are not yet take from them. And why? but because they make no more use of them, than if they had them not. See the parables of the talents, Matthew xxv, and Luke xix. (Witham) — He that hath, to him shall be given the knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God. But such as are incredulous, and resist my words, like the Pharisees and other Jews, so far from being enriched with my spiritual gifts in my kingdom, shall even be deprived of the benefits they now possess. Thus the Jews were deprived of their temple, priesthood, kingdom, and even the true worship of God. (St. Jerome) — They rejected Jesus Christ, the fountain and corner-stone of virtue; all therefore they had acquired, or possessed, shall be taken from them, and given to the apostles. (St. Jerome) — Whoever has a desire of complying with the divine precepts, that desire shall not only be increased, but all other virtues shall be added unto him; but if he be devoid of this desire, the virtues he already possesses, or seems to possess, shall be taken from him, not that God will deprive him of these without cause, but he will render himself unworthy of them. (St. Chrysostom)
C
Cathoholic
Guest
frangiuliano115. You asked:
Let’s get some contextual background to Matthew 25 in this post.
Then in the next post we will look directly at Matthew 25:14-31 step by step using the CCC (and other resources) to help guide us.
We know GRACE is Gods FAVOR but it is also God’s Divine life WITHIN us.
Grace
Since God is INFINITE, and we are merely finite, “earning” grace would be impossible (even if you were perfect).
“Talents” in the Bible is a weights and measures term for currency, for “money”.
A “talent” of silver for example, was roughly 85 pounds of silver or about 40 kilograms of silver (source).
So in the parable of the Talents, the Talents, which is GIVEN to US, I mean given to the people in the parable by the Master . . . . represents something that US servants, I mean the servants in the story, were freely GIVEN (they didn’t “earn” it to begin with).
Talents in the parable = Gifts from God we do not deserve and did not earn (part of this is grace)
Likewise in us, we are given something from the Master that we do not deserve.
We are given not mere Talents of precious metal; we are given far more than mere metal. We are given Grace.
Grace is undeserved.
CCC 1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
CCC 1998a This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative . . .
When God gives US “Talents”, when God gives US something free and undeserved, when God gives US His grace, He expects us to DO something with those proverbial “Talents”.
God expects us to DO something with the grace we are given. Jesus expects US to do something with that “participation into” the “Talents of the Master”, I mean the participation in the life of God.
CCC 1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of **the Spirit who breathes charity into him **and who forms the Church.
So again, when we are called into the "participation in the life of God” with undeserved “Talents” (Grace), and we are expected to do something with that Grace. Deeds are “required” (“to whom much is given, much will be REQUIRED”—see Luke 12:48).
CCC 546 Jesus’ invitation to enter his kingdom comes in the form of parables, a characteristic feature of his teaching. Through his parables he invites people to the feast of the kingdom, but he also asks for a radical choice: to gain the kingdom, one must give everything. Words are not enough, deeds are required. The parables are like mirrors for man: will he be hard soil or good earth for the word? What use has he made of the talents he has received? Jesus and the presence of the kingdom in this world are secretly at the heart of the parables. One must enter the kingdom, that is, become a disciple of Christ, in order to “know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven”. For those who stay “outside”, everything remains enigmatic.
But these expectations are according to our state in life, and our gifts because grace builds upon nature.
For example, a baby, or a profoundly mentally handicapped person isn’t going to have the same expectations from God, that a healthy adult would. This is obvious.
But it may be less obvious of a difference between you and your next-door neighbor. Yet you and your neighbor will have DIFFERENT amounts of gifts distributed to them by God. The “talents” are not distributed equally.
CCC 1936 On coming into the world, man is not equipped with everything he needs for developing his bodily and spiritual life. He needs others. Differences appear tied to age, physical abilities, intellectual or moral aptitudes, the benefits derived from social commerce, and the distribution of wealth. The “talents” are not distributed equally.
CCC 1937a These differences belong to God’s plan . . .
Keeping all of that in mind, let’s go to the next post and go through the Parable of the Talents.
There is MORE in this Parable, than I am unpacking here. If you want to see the “more”, just go to the CCC, look up “The Index of Citations” in the back and see the sections that the Church ties with these verses (and realize even this is not all exhaustive of the meanings).
Yes I will try.
Let’s get some contextual background to Matthew 25 in this post.
Then in the next post we will look directly at Matthew 25:14-31 step by step using the CCC (and other resources) to help guide us.
We know GRACE is Gods FAVOR but it is also God’s Divine life WITHIN us.
Grace
- God’s favor (undeserved)
- Participation in the life of God
Since God is INFINITE, and we are merely finite, “earning” grace would be impossible (even if you were perfect).
“Talents” in the Bible is a weights and measures term for currency, for “money”.
A “talent” of silver for example, was roughly 85 pounds of silver or about 40 kilograms of silver (source).
So in the parable of the Talents, the Talents, which is GIVEN to US, I mean given to the people in the parable by the Master . . . . represents something that US servants, I mean the servants in the story, were freely GIVEN (they didn’t “earn” it to begin with).
Talents in the parable = Gifts from God we do not deserve and did not earn (part of this is grace)
Likewise in us, we are given something from the Master that we do not deserve.
We are given not mere Talents of precious metal; we are given far more than mere metal. We are given Grace.
Grace is undeserved.
CCC 1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
CCC 1998a This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative . . .
When God gives US “Talents”, when God gives US something free and undeserved, when God gives US His grace, He expects us to DO something with those proverbial “Talents”.
God expects us to DO something with the grace we are given. Jesus expects US to do something with that “participation into” the “Talents of the Master”, I mean the participation in the life of God.
CCC 1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of **the Spirit who breathes charity into him **and who forms the Church.
So again, when we are called into the "participation in the life of God” with undeserved “Talents” (Grace), and we are expected to do something with that Grace. Deeds are “required” (“to whom much is given, much will be REQUIRED”—see Luke 12:48).
CCC 546 Jesus’ invitation to enter his kingdom comes in the form of parables, a characteristic feature of his teaching. Through his parables he invites people to the feast of the kingdom, but he also asks for a radical choice: to gain the kingdom, one must give everything. Words are not enough, deeds are required. The parables are like mirrors for man: will he be hard soil or good earth for the word? What use has he made of the talents he has received? Jesus and the presence of the kingdom in this world are secretly at the heart of the parables. One must enter the kingdom, that is, become a disciple of Christ, in order to “know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven”. For those who stay “outside”, everything remains enigmatic.
But these expectations are according to our state in life, and our gifts because grace builds upon nature.
For example, a baby, or a profoundly mentally handicapped person isn’t going to have the same expectations from God, that a healthy adult would. This is obvious.
But it may be less obvious of a difference between you and your next-door neighbor. Yet you and your neighbor will have DIFFERENT amounts of gifts distributed to them by God. The “talents” are not distributed equally.
CCC 1936 On coming into the world, man is not equipped with everything he needs for developing his bodily and spiritual life. He needs others. Differences appear tied to age, physical abilities, intellectual or moral aptitudes, the benefits derived from social commerce, and the distribution of wealth. The “talents” are not distributed equally.
CCC 1937a These differences belong to God’s plan . . .
Keeping all of that in mind, let’s go to the next post and go through the Parable of the Talents.
There is MORE in this Parable, than I am unpacking here. If you want to see the “more”, just go to the CCC, look up “The Index of Citations” in the back and see the sections that the Church ties with these verses (and realize even this is not all exhaustive of the meanings).
C
Cathoholic
Guest
***Continued from the last post . . . ***
First notice in the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25, that God gives to each according to his ability (thus it can be seen they do not all have the “same ability”).
MATTHEW 25:14-15a 14 "For it (the judgment day) will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability.
Now a we see how three people respond to three differing sets of gifts.
MATTHEW 25:16 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more.
MATTHEW 25:17 17 So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more.
MATTHEW 25:18 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money.
Later, these guys are “judged” or have their “accounts settled” by the Master. Judgement. The Final Judgment.
The Final Judgment is what Matthew 25 concerns. Settling our accounts with the Master (with God).
**
MATTHEW 25:19** 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
The servants who bear fruit (NOT ON THEIR OWN, but with “Talents” GIVEN undeservedly to them by the Master) are given a Heavenly reward.
MATTHEW 25:20-21 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
MATTHEW 25:22-23 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
But the servant who CHOSE to bear NO FRUIT (he didn’t even try) brings a curse upon himself and is thus cast out into the night where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
MATTHEW 25:24-28, 30 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. . . . 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
What the slothful servant was given (but rejected), he now has taken away.
MATTHEW 25:29 29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
The slothful servant loses what he was GIVEN.
We see this “losing what you are given” concept elsewhere too in different situations.
MATTHEW 21:43, 45 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it. . . . 45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.
ACTS 13:46 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
And all of this in Matthew 25 above is meant to elicit out thoughts to the Final or General Judgment.
MATTHEW 25:31-31 31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . .
Does this help frangiuliano115?
First notice in the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25, that God gives to each according to his ability (thus it can be seen they do not all have the “same ability”).
MATTHEW 25:14-15a 14 "For it (the judgment day) will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability.
Now a we see how three people respond to three differing sets of gifts.
MATTHEW 25:16 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more.
MATTHEW 25:17 17 So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more.
MATTHEW 25:18 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money.
Later, these guys are “judged” or have their “accounts settled” by the Master. Judgement. The Final Judgment.
The Final Judgment is what Matthew 25 concerns. Settling our accounts with the Master (with God).
**
MATTHEW 25:19** 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
The servants who bear fruit (NOT ON THEIR OWN, but with “Talents” GIVEN undeservedly to them by the Master) are given a Heavenly reward.
MATTHEW 25:20-21 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
MATTHEW 25:22-23 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’
But the servant who CHOSE to bear NO FRUIT (he didn’t even try) brings a curse upon himself and is thus cast out into the night where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
MATTHEW 25:24-28, 30 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. . . . 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’
What the slothful servant was given (but rejected), he now has taken away.
MATTHEW 25:29 29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
The slothful servant loses what he was GIVEN.
We see this “losing what you are given” concept elsewhere too in different situations.
- Adam and Eve lost Paradise.
- The fallen angels (demons), had “fallen” from something (they lost something).
- The same thing happened to the Pharisees who were formerly the custodians of the “Oracles of God.”
MATTHEW 21:43, 45 43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it. . . . 45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.
ACTS 13:46 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
And all of this in Matthew 25 above is meant to elicit out thoughts to the Final or General Judgment.
MATTHEW 25:31-31 31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . .
Does this help frangiuliano115?
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Yes. it helps. You did a beautiful work - it must have taken much time and I really appreciate it.
It’s getting printed out, BTW. Something such as the above should not be lost to time.
I agree that what is lost is grace. I like to say that if God gives you $5.00 one week and you don’t spend it properly or even know what to do with it, He certainly is not going to give you $10.00 the next week!
Wonderful explanation.
Thanks.
Fran
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Thank you for the kind words frangiuliano115.
One thing about grace that I will add here for anyone that may be interested . . .
In post 46 I discussed grace but forgot to include an important provision.
I think it is important to understand “grace” should NOT be reduced down to mere “feelings” and I was remiss in not mentioning that in the context of post 46. .
Thinking “grace” = “mere feelings” may cause a kind of “spiritual discouragement” as you try to help others (i.e. “Well I helped that person out as I know God wanted me to. But I did NOT have any “good feelings”! So it must NOT be grace. Therefore next time, I WON’T help somebody in that situation even though I thought I was sure it is God’s will”).
That being said, God MAY CHOOSE to provide consolations and good feelings, etc., but grace per se, should not by correlated with “feelings” or “senses”.
Feelings should NOT be associated with grace (in a cause and effect manner).
Here is how the CCC puts it . . .
CCC 2005a Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. . . .
(Italics CCC 2005 original)
P
pete_29
Guest
I’m just a dummy, but it seems to me that works cannot save you, but you can’t be saved without them. Does this make any sense? 
M
mikekle
Guest
This is great, when reading it, it made me realize the ‘moral’ of the story could apply to a wide variety of things today!!
I am very grateful to all who contributed to this thread. It certainly did cause interest and there are now 50 contributions, but some are off-topic. But all of them have been respectful and courteous, and we have all tried to be constructive.
I had thought that the discussion was completed, and considered my last contribution would be my final one. Since then one contribution facing up to a question I posed appeared, the only one to consider this issue fully. So now I will focus on it.
#41 Richca,
You wrote ‘we can do nothing conducive to our eternal salvation without grace’. It is fundamental to keep this in mind. For meritorious acts God grace is necessary.
You also wrote ‘God, by His grace is the initiator, by our cooperation we follow His lead’. I fully agree with this. Well said!
I find it hard to find in O.D. writings clear acknowledgement of the importance of grace. What appears is not incorrect perhaps, just incomplete.
You also wrote ‘Again yes, not without grace though’. This is correct. However one must try to avoid relativism. Either a statement is right or wrong. Either we are sanctified by works or not. To say ‘in a sense we are’ or ‘are not’ reminds me of President Truman who wanted one armed economists, who would not always say ‘but on the other hand’
In your final sentences when discussing O.D. spirituality you do not mention God’s grace. Working hard, being conscientious and attentive to our work does not make us holy. God’s grace does.
I had thought that the discussion was completed, and considered my last contribution would be my final one. Since then one contribution facing up to a question I posed appeared, the only one to consider this issue fully. So now I will focus on it.
#41 Richca,
You wrote ‘we can do nothing conducive to our eternal salvation without grace’. It is fundamental to keep this in mind. For meritorious acts God grace is necessary.
You also wrote ‘God, by His grace is the initiator, by our cooperation we follow His lead’. I fully agree with this. Well said!
I find it hard to find in O.D. writings clear acknowledgement of the importance of grace. What appears is not incorrect perhaps, just incomplete.
You also wrote ‘Again yes, not without grace though’. This is correct. However one must try to avoid relativism. Either a statement is right or wrong. Either we are sanctified by works or not. To say ‘in a sense we are’ or ‘are not’ reminds me of President Truman who wanted one armed economists, who would not always say ‘but on the other hand’
In your final sentences when discussing O.D. spirituality you do not mention God’s grace. Working hard, being conscientious and attentive to our work does not make us holy. God’s grace does.
- I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.* (Joh 15:5 NRS).
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Correct. And may I add that this does not only apply to grace - grace is not a feeling - although we have grace when we wake up well every day, but can also “feel” the presence of the Holy Spirit many times.
It also applys to faith. Sometimes we feel God far away, we feel abandoned, we may feel not loved.
But our feelings have nothing to do with it! We know God is near, He never abandons us and we know He loves us.
Faith is a knowing, not a feeling.
Much as grace.
Fran
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
You’re no dummy Pete29.I’m just a dummy, but it seems to me that works cannot save you, but you can’t be saved without them. Does this make any sense?
You’re quoting James 2:14.
We are saved by faith
Faith naturally produces works
So you make perfect sense!
I’m sure we’ll all be praying for your daugher.
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
I’d like to agree with you.
Working hard, being conscientious and attentive to our work does not make us holy. It certainly is the other way around. Our holiness makes us work hard, be conscientious and attentive to our duties, whatever they may be.
What is being holy? Holy = Being set aside for service to God.
Fran
B
Bookcat
Guest
And the Opus Dei Priest is referring not to ones initial justification/sanctification…but ones further cooperation (co-working) with grace in ones becoming more holy …more conformed to Christ.
P
pete_29
Guest
Thank You
G
guanophore
Guest
Both things are true. Being being conscientious and attentive to our work does most certainly make us holy. Every time we step forward in the grace of God to give Him our utmost, we become sanctified in the process.
And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; 6And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; 7And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. 8For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. I Peter1
In other words, applying ourselves will be fulfilling for us, and make us fruitful in the knowledge of Him. What else is holiness?
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Dichotomies Guanophore.
How could both things be true?
Do we work because we are holy
or are we holy because we work?
V
Vico
Guest
De fide dogmas of faith:
- Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.
- God gives all the just sufficent grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the observation of the Divine Commandments.
- There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
- There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
- For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
- Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.
- For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required.
- Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
- The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God.
- Status