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Saved by work
- Thread starter NoelFitz
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guanophore
Guest
Dichotimies are mutually exclusive. It is a dialectic, where things appear opposite and yet are complimentary.
Our work sanctifies us, as the Benedictine Rule says, “work is prayer”. When we apply ourselves to the “little things” (cf. St.Therese of the Little Flower) He works through our “little” things to sanctify us and make us holy.
And I think we are all in agreement, even with our separated siblings, that saving grace produces good works. “You are…That you may…”
No one is suggesting that good works can sanctify us if we are not in a state of grace.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
NoelFitz. You wrote:
After we are initially justified (through Baptism) . . .
CCC 2010b Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. . . .
In post 52 (excerpted above), it may be taken by some as grace and working is a self-contradiction. It may be taken by some as grace and all working is exclusionary.
Grace and working are NOT necessarily self-contradictions.
Just like grace and faith are NOT necessarily self-contradictions.
Just like grace and hope are NOT necessarily self-contradictions.
The other problem is, that using an either/or motif (either grace or works), falsely suggests justification is a moment ALONE, when in actuality justification is a moment followed by a process—a lifelong process.
The Process Of Our Salvation Includes . . .
Initially: Unmerited Grace by God apart from us
God initially approaching us or God making the first move (“God’s Prevenient Grace – “we love because he first loved us” as 1st John 4:19 states).
During: Unmerited Grace by God coupled with obedience to the command of Baptism given through the Church merited on Calvary (Unmerited by us, merited by Christ)
We are united to Christ in a special way via Baptism.
After: Merited Grace by us ONLY in the sense of “cooperation” with God’s gifts (as CCC 2009 says, “Our merits are God’s gifts” or CCC 2025 “Man’s merit is due to God”).
Supernatural faith, hope, and charity (including “works” of charity) ARE Graces. God’s Divine live within us IS a grace. Perseverance even in times of suffering and trial too is a grace. In this sense “works” ARE graces! In this sense “faith” IS a grace too (as is “hope”).
This is WHY the Catechism of the Catholic Church can say . . . .
CCC 2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
And
CCC 2010a Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. . . .
But then the CCC ALSO goes on to say . . . .
CCC 2010b Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
And the Catechism of the Catholic Church can ALSO say . . . .
CCC 2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
And CCC 2008 is the sense that we “merit” Heaven. And that is WHY the CCC can also say . . . .
CCC 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
I just wanted to highlight these distinctions as there may be “lurkers” here reading that may be confused by all of these nuances.
We ARE sanctified by works (but not initially).
After we are initially justified (through Baptism) . . .
CCC 2010b Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. . . .
In post 52 (excerpted above), it may be taken by some as grace and working is a self-contradiction. It may be taken by some as grace and all working is exclusionary.
- Grace and works in one sense are exclusionary.
- But grace and works in another sense are NOT exclusionary.
- Graces (from God) and works (done on your own) in one sense are exclusionary.
- But graces (from God) and works (done with God IN you) in another sense are NOT exclusionary.
Grace and working are NOT necessarily self-contradictions.
Just like grace and faith are NOT necessarily self-contradictions.
Just like grace and hope are NOT necessarily self-contradictions.
The other problem is, that using an either/or motif (either grace or works), falsely suggests justification is a moment ALONE, when in actuality justification is a moment followed by a process—a lifelong process.
The Process Of Our Salvation Includes . . .
Initially: Unmerited Grace by God apart from us
God initially approaching us or God making the first move (“God’s Prevenient Grace – “we love because he first loved us” as 1st John 4:19 states).
During: Unmerited Grace by God coupled with obedience to the command of Baptism given through the Church merited on Calvary (Unmerited by us, merited by Christ)
We are united to Christ in a special way via Baptism.
After: Merited Grace by us ONLY in the sense of “cooperation” with God’s gifts (as CCC 2009 says, “Our merits are God’s gifts” or CCC 2025 “Man’s merit is due to God”).
Supernatural faith, hope, and charity (including “works” of charity) ARE Graces. God’s Divine live within us IS a grace. Perseverance even in times of suffering and trial too is a grace. In this sense “works” ARE graces! In this sense “faith” IS a grace too (as is “hope”).
This is WHY the Catechism of the Catholic Church can say . . . .
CCC 2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
And
CCC 2010a Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. . . .
But then the CCC ALSO goes on to say . . . .
CCC 2010b Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
And the Catechism of the Catholic Church can ALSO say . . . .
CCC 2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
And CCC 2008 is the sense that we “merit” Heaven. And that is WHY the CCC can also say . . . .
CCC 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
I just wanted to highlight these distinctions as there may be “lurkers” here reading that may be confused by all of these nuances.
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guanophore
Guest
Great job.
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fhansen
Guest
In Catholic teaching we can, and we’re expected to, grow in justice, after initial justification. This means we can grow in the theological virtues of faith, hope, and love, love being the most important virtue defining our justice. We grow in this manner by “investing our talents”, continuing to respond to and cooperate with grace, following God in the path He’s prepared for us which means doing our part, striving, persevering, as we work out our salvation with He who works in us (Phil 2), being transformed into His image (2 Cor 3), an image that has no limitations to its justice.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Thanks for the kind words guanophore.
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BornInMarch
Guest
I believe that work can get someone into Heaven.
There are 7 billion humans on earth, but only 1.2 billion Catholics. Even if we include all Christians (2.2 billion!), that’s still about 5 billion humans being condemned to eternal suffering through no fault of their own. Combine that with the implication that doing good deeds is an exercise in futility, and the whole “Being a Good Person Isn’t enough” argument become downright terrifyingly.
I believe being a good person/doing good works IS enough to get into heaven, because the alternatives (That God is not really loving or merciful) is something that terrifies me to no end.
There are 7 billion humans on earth, but only 1.2 billion Catholics. Even if we include all Christians (2.2 billion!), that’s still about 5 billion humans being condemned to eternal suffering through no fault of their own. Combine that with the implication that doing good deeds is an exercise in futility, and the whole “Being a Good Person Isn’t enough” argument become downright terrifyingly.
I believe being a good person/doing good works IS enough to get into heaven, because the alternatives (That God is not really loving or merciful) is something that terrifies me to no end.
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Vico
Guest
Matthew 25 shows how we can be condemned:
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.
32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:
…
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink.
43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee?
45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
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BornInMarch
Guest
Matthew 25:31-46 is one of my favorite verses, because in it Jesus states what separates the saved from the condemned in simple terms. “For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat”: your fellow man was in a time of need and you helped him.
There are lots of scenes in The Gospels, from Jesus healing a pagan woman, to him telling a parable with a non-believer as the hero (The Good Samaritan), that support my belief in Good Works leading to Heaven.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Thanks mikekle for the positive (name removed by moderator)ut.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Born in March -
If being a good person and doing good works is enough to get you into heaven, does that mean you think that atheists who are good people and are doing good works are going to heaven?
Just wondering…
B
BornInMarch
Guest
Yes.
I have a close family member who is an atheist, but he is overall a good person. Also, about 14% of the humans alive on earth art atheists.
The idea that all those people are condemned (for not being able to see something that might not be as obvious to them as it is to us) is terrifying for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Interesting.
The Church teaches that such people can be saved yes. Can. Not necessarily Will.
But if they are saved, it will NOT be because of their works. It will be solely by God’s unmerited grace, as is the case for all of us. None of us will be saved by our works.
The reason is that our works are finite in value, and cannot merit eternal reward. There is nothing we can do to make us deserve heaven. Only grace makes that possible and grace cannot be earned or merited.
With all the back-and-forth going on in this thread I’m not certain you got the answer you need.
The answer to your question is Yes. We are sanctified by our normal duties. This to say, doing our work out of love for God increases our holiness.
But there’s a catch. Only in the state of grace. Outside of the state of grace, our works merit nothing.
E
eazyduzit
Guest
The problem with your theory is that it discounts the sacrifice of Christ. If we could do something to qualify ourselves for heaven, then the Son of God died and suffered needlessly.
There were many righteous in the OT but no one could enter heaven without His sacrifice.
Shalom,
Jerry
E
eazyduzit
Guest
The biblical answer to the question is no. Sanctification is the work of the HS. (2Thes. 2:13)
Sanctification means to purify. God does this. We can’t purify ourself in a good enough way to be acceptable to God.
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guanophore
Guest
The question is not worded well. We are sanctified by grace, through faith. So we are not sanctified “by” doing our daily tasks, but “in” and "through "them as we connect with the grace of God.
I agree with you that the Holy Spirit is the one who sanctifies, but we participate:
I Peter 1: 22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.…
Obedience does purify our souls, when we do it in HIm, with Him, and through Him, to the glory of God the father.
B
BornInMarch
Guest
Jesus didn’t die to forgive the sins of the Christians; he died to forgive the sins of all people. Even the dogs eat the crumbs from their master’s table.
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