Saved by work

[porthos11]

The biblical answer to the question is no. Sanctification is the work of the HS. (2Thes. 2:13)
Sanctification means to purify. God does this. We can’t purify ourself in a good enough way to be acceptable to God.

Yes, sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit. We do not deny that.

And no, sanctification does NOT mean to purify. It means to make holy, which is related, but not the same. As with justification, only God can do that too.

We also do not deny that our works, by themselves justify us before God They do not.

We, however affirm that when we are justified, our works DO attain a value pleasing to God, and our works become meritorious. THIS is the Biblical answer, accounting for all Biblical passages, not a select few verses. We never discount grace or how it acts in relation to our works.

 

[fhansen]

Its a cooperative process, ourselves with God, working out our salvation. Its how we live our lives, in totality, not a one-time act of faith nor even an ongoing life of faith or some level of trust alone. its faith expressing itself and working through love. And in the end we’ll be judged as per Matt 25:31-46, on how we lived our lives, on what we did, IOW, with the grace given. Its really pretty simple. Some are virtually obsessed with and over-focused on the idea of faith, and over-confident in their self-assessment regarding the sufficiency of their faith to save.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit. We do not deny that.

And no, sanctification does NOT mean to purify. It means to make holy, which is related, but not the same. As with justification, only God can do that too.

We also do not deny that our works, by themselves justify us before God They do not.

We, however affirm that when we are justified, our works DO attain a value pleasing to God, and our works become meritorious. THIS is the Biblical answer, accounting for all Biblical passages, not a select few verses. We never discount grace or how it acts in relation to our works.

I think the principle of cooperaton with grace may be the root of our differences here.

"And every one who thus hopes in him* purifies** himself as he is pure. " I John 3:3

ἁγνίζω.

The word is used in the Septuagint to mean “to set in a state of cultic qualification,” and thus applies to the various measures serving this end (e.g., washing garments in Ex. 19:10).

In the NT ἁγνίζω is used in Jn. 11:55 of the cultic purification of the Jews prior to the passover. It is then used of cultic purification within the Jewish Christian community in Jerusalem which kept to the OT Law and laid on Paul a demand of this kind in Ac. 21:24, 26; 24:18, The ongoing participation of the primitive community in the temple cultus made observance of the traditional external cultic regulations unavoidable. In particular, visiting the temple after returning from the Gentile world demanded additional cultic purification. NT religion did not fashion any such rules of its own. Hence this aspect drops away as NT religion attains fuller understanding of itself. However, the term occasionally finds a new use** to denote full moral purity **as the decisive presupposition for the reception of salvation (Jm. 4:8; 1 Pt. 1:22; 1 Jn. 3:3). Strongs.

1. ἁγνίζω hagnizō, hag-nid´-zo; from 53; to make clean, i.e. (fig.) sanctify (cer. or mor.):—purify (self).

The NT writers are not using this word in the context of Christian conduct to mean
“ritual” cleanness, but moral cleanness.

We are sanctified/purified/made clean as we engage in our daily duties. We “purify ourselves” to the extent that we engage in the activities of daily life in a state of grace, through faith. God transforms our souls and conforms us to His image and likeness.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Looks like Porthos11 (and others) understand the catholic position on different matters, as is demonstrated by his post no. 75 and 81.

It IS a mystery to me why we don’t all understand the same concepts since we’re all reading the same bible and the same CCC and the same encyclicals.

Regarding what Eazyduzit says, that is a complicated subject. Only God knows the heart.
But He does need to be accepted, in some way.

Plus, some here get grace, faith, justification and sanctification all mixed up.

Fran

 

[porthos11]

I think the principle of cooperaton with grace may be the root of our differences here.

"And every one who thus hopes in him* purifies** himself as he is pure. " I John 3:3

ἁγνίζω.

The word is used in the Septuagint to mean “to set in a state of cultic qualification,” and thus applies to the various measures serving this end (e.g., washing garments in Ex. 19:10).

In the NT ἁγνίζω is used in Jn. 11:55 of the cultic purification of the Jews prior to the passover. It is then used of cultic purification within the Jewish Christian community in Jerusalem which kept to the OT Law and laid on Paul a demand of this kind in Ac. 21:24, 26; 24:18, The ongoing participation of the primitive community in the temple cultus made observance of the traditional external cultic regulations unavoidable. In particular, visiting the temple after returning from the Gentile world demanded additional cultic purification. NT religion did not fashion any such rules of its own. Hence this aspect drops away as NT religion attains fuller understanding of itself. However, the term occasionally finds a new use** to denote full moral purity **as the decisive presupposition for the reception of salvation (Jm. 4:8; 1 Pt. 1:22; 1 Jn. 3:3). Strongs.

1. ἁγνίζω hagnizō, hag-nid´-zo; from 53; to make clean, i.e. (fig.) sanctify (cer. or mor.):—purify (self).

The NT writers are not using this word in the context of Christian conduct to mean
“ritual” cleanness, but moral cleanness.

We are sanctified/purified/made clean as we engage in our daily duties. We “purify ourselves” to the extent that we engage in the activities of daily life in a state of grace, through faith. God transforms our souls and conforms us to His image and likeness.

You raise a good point and I didn’t think to look to the Greek in this case. It’s hard to deny the common root of hagios and hagnizo, which should force me to withdraw my objection to the sanctification equating purification in this context.

It still, however, does not disprove my assertion that in a state of grace, works are a means to sanctification, even our daily tasks done for love of God. Colossians 3:23 makes that clear that our reward for works done “as for the Lord” merits reward from the Lord. Reward from the Lord is always of a sanctifying nature.

But again, not of our works themselves. There is nothing we can do on our own to “earn” our sanctification. The first action is God’s, and God’s alone. Outside of the state of grace, into which God alone can put us, our works merit nothing.

 

[Vico]

Looks like Porthos11 (and others) understand the catholic position on different matters, as is demonstrated by his post no. 75 and 81.

It IS a mystery to me why we don’t all understand the same concepts since we’re all reading the same bible and the same CCC and the same encyclicals.

Regarding what Eazyduzit says, that is a complicated subject. Only God knows the heart.
But He does need to be accepted, in some way.

Plus, some here get grace, faith, justification and sanctification all mixed up.

Fran

• Divine** Faith** is acceptance of the word of God, and the infused theological virtue whereby a person may* “believe that what God has revealed is true – not because its intrinsic truth is seen with the rational light of reason – but because of the authority of God who reveals it, of God who can neither deceive nor be deceived”* (Vatican I Council).
• Justification is a change to a state of grace for those that are spiritually dead, through baptism, absolution, or perfect contrition.
• Sanctification is being made holy at baptism, with subsequent growth of grace, or in the beatific vision.

From Modern Catholic Dictionary:
GRACE OF SANCTIFICATION
The supernatural gift whose purpose is the personal sanctification of the one who receives it. It is called the grace that makes one pleasing (gratia gratum faciens) to God either by making the person holy (sanctifying grace), or by preparing him for sanctification, or by preserving and increasing his sanctification (actual grace).

Note that it is actual grace that is “preparing him for sanctification”, at conversion before baptism.

 

[Cathoholic]

Vico. You stated:

• Divine Faith is acceptance of the word of God, and the infused theological virtue whereby a person may “believe that what God has revealed is true – not because its intrinsic truth is seen with the rational light of reason – but because of the authority of God who reveals it, of God who can neither deceive nor be deceived” (Vatican I Council).

• Justification is a change to a state of grace for those that are spiritually dead, through baptism, absolution, or perfect contrition.

• Sanctification is being made holy at baptism, with subsequent growth of grace, or in the beatific vision.

From Modern Catholic Dictionary:

GRACE OF SANCTIFICATION

The supernatural gift whose purpose is the personal sanctification of the one who receives it. It is called the grace that makes one pleasing (gratia gratum faciens) to God either by making the person holy (sanctifying grace), or by preparing him for sanctification, or by preserving and increasing his sanctification (actual grace).

Note that it is actual grace that is “preparing him for sanctification”, at conversion before baptism.

Good post.

But I just want to clarify that point (not for you, but for others). For any potential “lurkers” here that may erroneously reduce sanctification down to “preparing ALONE” or somehow otherwise they conclude works or daily duties done IN GRACE cannot be PART of our sanctification.

---

The “preparing” is God’s prevenient grace that we had discussed earlier on this forum (here and here for example).

Although Sanctification and Justification are not the same thing, they ARE intimately related.

Excerpt from CCC 1989 Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

We saw earlier that justification is a moment, followed by a lifelong process (therefore we would expect sanctification to be too).

And we did NOT merit this grace in a strict sense.

CCC 1992a Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us . . . .

Certainly God is the “origin and source” of our sanctification.

CCC 190 And so the Creed is divided into three parts: "the first part speaks of the first divine Person and the wonderful work of creation; the next speaks of the second divine Person and the mystery of his redemption of men; the final part speaks of the third divine Person, the origin and source of our sanctification."4 These are “the three chapters of our [baptismal] seal”.5

(But that does NOT get healthy adults off the NEED to work IN GRACE)

Nothing unclean can enter that holy city, the New Jerusalem, Heaven (Revelation 21:27).

No sanctification, no Heaven (for those who are able).

Can “working”, not on our own, but WITH the GRACE OF CHRIST be a means to our sanctification? Yes.

The CCC tells us “yes”.

CCC 2427 excerpt Human work proceeds directly from persons created in the image of God . . . . It can also be redemptive. By enduring the hardship of work in union with Jesus, . . . collaborates in a certain fashion with the Son of God in his redemptive work. . . . . Work can be a means of sanctification and a way of animating earthly realities with the Spirit of Christ.

HEBREWS 12:14 14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Sanctification is part of our justification. Working (in a state of grace) is part of that formula (appropriate to our state in life).

We are saved by the work of Christ through sanctification and belief.

We are NOT taught anywhere, that we are saved by the work of Christ through “belief ALONE”.

St. Paul puts it this way . . . .

**
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13** 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and **belief **in the truth.

Again. We are saved by the work of Christ through sanctification and belief.

And that sanctification may include “working”.

“Human work . . . can also be redemptive. By . . . work(ing) in union with Jesus, . . . Work can be a means of sanctification . . . with the Spirit of Christ.”

 

[frangiuliano115]

Vico. You stated:

Good post.

But I just want to clarify that point (not for you, but for others). For any potential “lurkers” here that may erroneously reduce sanctification down to “preparing ALONE” or somehow otherwise they conclude works or daily duties done IN GRACE cannot be PART of our sanctification.

**Although Sanctification and Justification are not the same thing, they ARE intimately related.

Excerpt from CCC 1989** Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

We saw earlier that justification is a moment, followed by a lifelong process (therefore we would expect sanctification to be too).

Not that I plan on changing the terminology of the church! Just to get your thinking on this.

Would you agree that maybe we should call justification that moment where we become children of God, are saved, or whatever you want to call it or just, are justified in the eyes of God.

And sanctification that process that is life-long and sanctifies us (makes us holy for service to God).

This would be the initial justification, (justification) the second justification (sanctification)
and last but not LEAST!! the third justification (glorification).

Wouldn’t it be easier to just say justification, sanctification, glorification??

Fran

 

[guanophore]

Vico. You stated:

Good post.

But I just want to clarify that point (not for you, but for others). For any potential “lurkers” here that may erroneously reduce sanctification down to “preparing ALONE” or somehow otherwise they conclude works or daily duties done IN GRACE cannot be PART of our sanctification.

The “preparing” is God’s prevenient grace that we had discussed earlier on this forum (here and here for example).

Although Sanctification and Justification are not the same thing, they ARE intimately related.

Excerpt from CCC 1989 Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

We saw earlier that justification is a moment, followed by a lifelong process (therefore we would expect sanctification to be too).

And we did NOT merit this grace in a strict sense.

CCC 1992a Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us . . . .

Certainly God is the “origin and source” of our sanctification.

CCC 190 And so the Creed is divided into three parts: "the first part speaks of the first divine Person and the wonderful work of creation; the next speaks of the second divine Person and the mystery of his redemption of men; the final part speaks of the third divine Person, the origin and source of our sanctification."4 These are “the three chapters of our [baptismal] seal”.5

(But that does NOT get healthy adults off the NEED to work IN GRACE)

Nothing unclean can enter that holy city, the New Jerusalem, Heaven (Revelation 21:27).

No sanctification, no Heaven (for those who are able).

Can “working”, not on our own, but WITH the GRACE OF CHRIST be a means to our sanctification? Yes.

The CCC tells us “yes”.

CCC 2427 excerpt Human work proceeds directly from persons created in the image of God . . . . It can also be redemptive. By enduring the hardship of work in union with Jesus, . . . collaborates in a certain fashion with the Son of God in his redemptive work. . . . . Work can be a means of sanctification and a way of animating earthly realities with the Spirit of Christ.

HEBREWS 12:14 14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Sanctification is part of our justification. Working (in a state of grace) is part of that formula (appropriate to our state in life).

We are saved by the work of Christ through sanctification and belief.

We are NOT taught anywhere, that we are saved by the work of Christ through “belief ALONE”.

St. Paul puts it this way . . . .

**
2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13** 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and **belief **in the truth.

Again. We are saved by the work of Christ through sanctification and belief.

And that sanctification may include “working”.

“Human work . . . can also be redemptive. By . . . work(ing) in union with Jesus, . . . Work can be a means of sanctification . . . with the Spirit of Christ.”

Great post.

 

[Edward_H]

I am very grateful to all who contributed to this thread. It certainly did cause interest and there are now 50 contributions, but some are off-topic. But all of them have been respectful and courteous, and we have all tried to be constructive.

I had thought that the discussion was completed, and considered my last contribution would be my final one. Since then one contribution facing up to a question I posed appeared, the only one to consider this issue fully. So now I will focus on it.

#41 Richca,
You wrote ‘we can do nothing conducive to our eternal salvation without grace’. It is fundamental to keep this in mind. For meritorious acts God grace is necessary.
You also wrote ‘God, by His grace is the initiator, by our cooperation we follow His lead’. I fully agree with this. Well said!

I find it hard to find in O.D. writings clear acknowledgement of the importance of grace. What appears is not incorrect perhaps, just incomplete.

You also wrote ‘Again yes, not without grace though’. This is correct. However one must try to avoid relativism. Either a statement is right or wrong. Either we are sanctified by works or not. To say ‘in a sense we are’ or ‘are not’ reminds me of President Truman who wanted one armed economists, who would not always say ‘but on the other hand’

In your final sentences when discussing O.D. spirituality you do not mention God’s grace. Working hard, being conscientious and attentive to our work does not make us holy. God’s grace does.

• I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.* (Joh 15:5 NRS).

You’re not going to find in OD writings a big long special discussion or treatment on grace or sanctification. The Work simply points to the Catechism or other Church writings.

It doesn’t have its own “take” on grace or sanctification or justification.

The Work is Catholic.

What OD offers is a way or spirit of living out our Christian life “in the middle of the world”.

It reminds people…and provides formation for anyone (not just OD members, not just Catholics, not just Christians) to ‘convert their ordinary work’ into prayer, because we are commanded to “pray always”, “rejoice always” and to be always working…“as My heavenly Father is always working”.

So this means with God’s grace…which is available to us…we can “re-Christianize” all of the world, not just parish life, not just “churchy activities”…but everything.

Everything…the flat tire, the huge month long work project…the dirty diaper, the sick wife, the awful meeting with a cranky boss.

All events and activities can be converted into prayer…into an offering. And in the “spirit of Opus Dei” into a happy offering. “Smiling asceticism”.

God gives us a great chance at dignity, by allowing us to fully and completely cooperate with His redemptive work even now. We can all be Simon of Cyrene’s.

What God does with those offerings…how He chooses to distribute further graces is up to Him.

So OD doesn’t have its own take on grace…it simply accepts fully and applies liberally what the Church teaches (for example its teaching on redemptive suffering) into the ordinary world.

 

[guanophore]

Are we sanctified by carrying out our normal duties?

In a retreat recently I discussed with the priest the relationship between Opus Dei and Pelagianism. Unfortunately we seemed to disagree. Are we sanctified by carrying out our normal duties? The priest emphasized that with effort we can grow in God’s love, with this I disagreed. Were his views Catholic teaching? It seemed strange to me, as grace seems to be ignored in his views about living the Christian life, and looking on the web I can get little help.

Do others see my problem?

Are we made acceptable to God by doing our daily work? I try to avoid terms such as righteousness and justification as these may carry unacceptable meanings.

Please help.

We are made acceptable to God by His grace, through faith. We can experience this saving act of God through our daily tasks.

The of St. Benedict, the sixth-century abbot whose Rule still shapes monastic life, was Orare est Laborare, Laborare est Orare—to pray is to work, to work is to pray. Benedict believed that an integrated life required a balance of intellectual study, prayer and work. “To the Benedictine, work and prayer were the two hinges on which the gate of Heaven would swing open,” writes Louis B. Ward, a scholar of Benedictine spirituality.

When we approach our daily tasks in a state of grace, prayerfully, and desire through them to be conformed to the image of Christ, then we can be sanctified through them.

 

[NoelFitz]

Thank you for over 90 replies, many of them off-topic. However I am very disappointed by the general tone of the thread.

It seems many claim that our ordinary activities can merit salvation. I would claim that without grace no action can be meritorious. Actions are not per se meritorious, it is God’s grace that makes them of benefit to our salvation.

The replies are (in general) negative and pessimistic, claiming that looking at pornography on the internet, with clear knowledge and consent, is mortally sinful. Thus if a young bot or 13 looks at physiography for a few minutes he loses God’s friendship and is condemned (until he repents in confession) to hell with all its torments for all eternity. Thus God does not act like a loving father, but shows a lack of love, mercy and compassion. If he is all-powerful and loving it seems impossible to see how he would create someone who will suffer for eternity.

This is the year of mercy, but if replies here are correct God lacks it.

But we cannot know God’s mind, so let us hope all will be saved.

 

[fhansen]

Thank you for over 90 replies, many of them off-topic. However I am very disappointed by the general tone of the thread.

It seems many claim that our ordinary activities can merit salvation. I would claim that without grace no action can be meritorious. Actions are not per se meritorious, it is God’s grace that makes them of benefit to our salvation.

The replies are (in general) negative and pessimistic, claiming that looking at pornography on the internet, with clear knowledge and consent, is mortally sinful. Thus if a young bot or 13 looks at physiography for a few minutes he loses God’s friendship and is condemned (until he repents in confession) to hell with all its torments for all eternity. Thus God does not act like a loving father, but shows a lack of love, mercy and compassion. If he is all-powerful and loving it seems impossible to see how he would create someone who will suffer for eternity.

This is the year of mercy, but if replies here are correct God lacks it.

But we cannot know God’s mind, so let us hope all will be saved.

Without going through all the replies I don’t think it’s quite fair to say that people are being negative just because they bring up the possibility of not being saved due to sin, due to rejecting grace/God’s love IOW. In any case, salvation is not universal according to the Church.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Thank you for over 90 replies, many of them off-topic. However I am very disappointed by the general tone of the thread.

It seems many claim that our ordinary activities can merit salvation. I would claim that without grace no action can be meritorious. Actions are not per se meritorious, it is God’s grace that makes them of benefit to our salvation.

The replies are (in general) negative and pessimistic, claiming that looking at pornography on the internet, with clear knowledge and consent, is mortally sinful. Thus if a young bot or 13 looks at physiography for a few minutes he loses God’s friendship and is condemned (until he repents in confession) to hell with all its torments for all eternity. Thus God does not act like a loving father, but shows a lack of love, mercy and compassion. If he is all-powerful and loving it seems impossible to see how he would create someone who will suffer for eternity.

This is the year of mercy, but if replies here are correct God lacks it.

But we cannot know God’s mind, so let us hope all will be saved.

NoelFitz,

I don’t have a lot of time. You sound so down.

Jesus came that we may have LIFE and life more ABUNDANT!

Vico posted the most important words in this whole thread:

Divine Faith is acceptance of the word of God, and the infused theological virtue whereby a person may “believe that what God has revealed is true – not because its intrinsic truth is seen with the rational light of reason – but because of the authority of God who reveals it, of God who can neither deceive nor be deceived” (Vatican I Council).

Justification is a change to a state of grace for those that are spiritually dead, through baptism, absolution, or perfect contrition.

Sanctification is being made holy at baptism, with subsequent growth of grace, or in the beatific vision.

From Modern Catholic Dictionary:

GRACE OF SANCTIFICATION
The supernatural gift whose purpose is the personal sanctification of the one who receives it. It is called the grace that makes one pleasing (gratia gratum faciens) to God either by making the person holy (sanctifying grace), or by preparing him for sanctification, or by preserving and increasing his sanctification (actual grace).
Note that it is actual grace that is “preparing him for sanctification”, at conversion before baptism.

---

Be happy. You know the creator of the universe. And He knows you! And all those who want to be with Him - even if they sin as that 13 yr old boy. Only Jesus was perfect. And we’re depending on HIS perfection to get to heaven.

FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT **WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM **SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.
John 3:16

You can trust in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Fran

 

[Vico]

If anyone loses God’s friendship is it because of mortal sin, so yes, by mortal sin without repentance one condemns oneself by free will. Yet, God is a loving father and shows an abundance of love, mercy and compassion, because by contrition this is easily reversed.

 

[guanophore]

It seems many claim that our ordinary activities can merit salvation.

Sorry, Noel, it seems that you missed the point. We can only be savved by grace, through faith, not of our works, lest any man should boast.

God’s grace will sanctify us through our ordinary activities, if we allow Him.

I would claim that without grace no action can be meritorious. Actions are not per se meritorious, it is God’s grace that makes them of benefit to our salvation.

This is what the Catholic Church believes and teaches.

 The replies are (in general) negative and pessimistic, claiming that looking at pornography on the internet, with clear knowledge and consent, is mortally sinful.  Thus if a young bot or 13 looks at physiography for a few minutes he loses God's friendship and is condemned (until he repents in confession) to hell with all its torments  for all eternity.

It is not up to us to judge whether the 13 year old is knowledgable and consenting, but it is the duty of the Church to warn the faithful so that they do not fall from grace. Pornography is inherently evil and participating in it in any way endangers the soul. It would not be loving to withhold this truth.

Thus God does not act like a loving father, but shows a lack of love, mercy and compassion. If he is all-powerful and loving it seems impossible to see how he would create someone who will suffer for eternity.

God does not create anyone to suffer for eternity. He created all of us through love, and for love, so that we could spend eternity in communion with Him. We, by our choices, can throw away our friendship with Him. Trading pornography for HIm is one such way.

This is the year of mercy, but if replies here are correct God lacks it.

I think you are missing the point, Noel. It is a mercy to warn people against the loss of heaven.

But we cannot know God's mind, so let us hope all will be saved.

This is not true at all, Noel. We know enough of God’s mind to obtain salvation. He has revealed His mind through the Holy Scriptures and the Living Church, which is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. Salvation comes from obedience to the Truth.

 

[porthos11]

Thank you for over 90 replies, many of them off-topic. However I am very disappointed by the general tone of the thread.

It seems many claim that our ordinary activities can merit salvation. I would claim that without grace no action can be meritorious. Actions are not per se meritorious, it is God’s grace that makes them of benefit to our salvation.

The replies are (in general) negative and pessimistic, claiming that looking at pornography on the internet, with clear knowledge and consent, is mortally sinful. Thus if a young bot or 13 looks at physiography for a few minutes he loses God’s friendship and is condemned (until he repents in confession) to hell with all its torments for all eternity. Thus God does not act like a loving father, but shows a lack of love, mercy and compassion. If he is all-powerful and loving it seems impossible to see how he would create someone who will suffer for eternity.

This is the year of mercy, but if replies here are correct God lacks it.

But we cannot know God’s mind, so let us hope all will be saved.

Until he repents. Because he sought God’s mercy. And God’s mercy is always available in the Confessional. Why should that pose a problem? God’s mercy is as close as the nearest Catholic priest. You are therefore incorrect that God would lack mercy and compassion. He’s right there in the Confessional. You need it, go to him. So don’t accuse God of having no mercy or compassion. He offers and gives it to repentant sinners every single day.

You said clear/full knowledge and consent. That’s mortal sin. He chose to cut himself off from God. If he doesn’t repent, then, he, by definition is unrepentant, and chose sin rather than God, and God while offers mercy, he never forces it on anyone. On the other hand, even the most hardened sinner, name it: adulterer, murder, genocidal warlord, who turns to God for mercy and confesses has his slate wiped clean. But do you really think God will give mercy to any sinner who does not want it or ask for it? There’s the Confessional. Why would one seeking mercy not go to where it is offered?

Pornography is mortal sin. Why then should it trouble you if such an unrepentant sinner does go to hell? Only the unrepentant go to hell. If one doesn’t accept God’s mercy, then he will get God’s justice. Or do you have trouble with the concept of mortal sin?

What would you rather have God do? Just forgive even though the person is insistent on remaining in his state of sin? Even when unwilling to repent and confess?

 

[PRmerger]

Well Neofitz,

We here , as catholics and including priests and everybody else, are going to have to come to some decision as to whether we save ourselves or if Jesus saves us.

It’s becoming quite clear to me that some kind of line is being drawn.

It’s only drawn by people who are unfamiliar with Scripture.

Scripture is clear that it’s both: we can save ourselves, and Jesus saves us.
And! I would add the Scripture says that we can save others, too, so how about that–

• we can save ourselves: Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so **you will save both yourself **and those who listen to you. "–1 Timothy 4:16
• we save others: If somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.—Romans 11:14

Of course this is all done through our union with Christ’s atoning death on the cross.

So none if it is done apart from Christ.

 

[frangiuliano115]

It’s only drawn by people who are unfamiliar with Scripture.

Scripture is clear that it’s both: we can save ourselves, and Jesus saves us.
And! I would add the Scripture says that we can save others, too, so how about that–

• we can save ourselves: Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so **you will save both yourself **and those who listen to you. "–1 Timothy 4:16
• we save others: If somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.—Romans 11:14

Of course this is all done through our union with Christ’s atoning death on the cross.

So none if it is done apart from Christ.

Since you address this to me, and although I can’t even remember what I was referring to, here’s my reply:

I guess i just don’t know scripture!

But thank God YOU’RE here to teach me.

Fran

 

[PRmerger]

Since you address this to me, and although I can’t even remember what I was referring to, here’s my reply:

I guess i just don’t know scripture!

But thank God YOU’RE here to teach me.

Fran

I am happy to help, Fran.

It is clearly good for you to be here, for I think you have been working under some severe misapprehensions regarding your faith.

An open spirit and a receptive mind are all that’s required.