Saved through faith, not works?

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AlanFromWichita

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I’ve seen “faith without works” many times, but I never really noticed until today, where it says:

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.

Isn’t this sola fide or some other thing we say that Protestants say? That we are saved through our faith and not our works?

Granted faith is dead without works. (James 2:17-18) So I’m not saying you can have faith without works, but that it is the faith that saves you and not the works – as is specifically stated in Ephesians and for that matter some places in Galatians 2 and 3 seem to speak the same way. Why do so many Catholics say we are not saved through faith alone but by our works? It is just a logic game we play to the Protestants and us to differentiate ourselves over what means effectively nothing in terms of how we are to think and act?

Alan
 
This is sola fide. The reference you have cited and others from Ephesians and Galations are the ones my Baptist family frequently quotes to tell me that works do not matter. The problem is they read this passage and overlook many others. They do not worry about their sins in the way Catholics do…or doing good as they don’t think it is really necessary. Part of the confusion I think is that when St. Paul is referring to works in some of these letters, he is speaking to people who thought they would be saved by following the Jewish laws.

I like the way the Catechism puts it.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since without faith it is impossible to please (God) " and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”

Faith is necessary, but there are other things to it. The way I see it is that if we have faith and truly love God with all of our hearts, the works will proceed naturally because we want to share the Lord’s love with others. Of course the James reference is one of the best for expressing this. However, the Lord himself mentions other things being necessary for salvation. He makes it clear we must give our lives to him.

Matthew 19:16-22 – “Now someone approached him and said, ‘Teacher what good must I do to gain eternal life?’ He answered him, ‘Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments’…The young man said to him, ‘All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?’ Jesus said to him, ‘if you wish to be perfect, go sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’” Here faith is not even mentioned.

Mark 16:16 – Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned”. Here the Lord states the necessity of baptism.

Luke 13:3 – “But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did”. Here the Lord states that repentance is necessary for salvation.

John 6:36 – “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him”. Here the Lord stresses the importance of having faith and being obedient if we are to have eternal life.

John 14:21 – “Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him”. Here the Lord makes it clear that if we love him, we will keep his commandments and we will see God. One way to show our love for the Lord is to follow the commandments.

These are just a few of the ones I have stumbled on that clarified this for me. I am sure there are more.
 
Faith and works go hand in hand. Works will show your faith. I’m sure that there are atheists who do “good works,” but their heart isn’t in it. In the end, God will separate the people into those who did good out of a God given love, and those who did works, but for their own glory. Those who did the works without faith will say, “Lord, did we not heal in your name? Did we not preach, teach in your name?” I think there is more mentioned about what they did. But the enphases is on themselves. Jesus will say, “Away with you, I do not know you.” I can’t remember the exact scripture for this, but it’s about “separating the sheeps from the goats.”
 
WaitingForJesus said:
Faith is necessary, but there are other things to it. The way I see it is that if we have faith and truly love God with all of our hearts, the works will proceed naturally because we want to share the Lord’s love with others. Of course the James reference is one of the best for expressing this. However, the Lord himself mentions other things being necessary for salvation. He makes it clear we must give our lives to him.
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I like this view. If we truly do have faith, then we will naturally be drawn toward doing acts of love, and I would say that things that help us out on our own journeys to love God can count for this – not just acts of mercy targeted to particular other people. IOW an activity that builds faith is a work. In fact, works show and build faith both.
Matthew 19:16-22 – “Now someone approached him and said, ‘Teacher what good must I do to gain eternal life?’ He answered him, ‘Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments’…The young man said to him, ‘All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?’ Jesus said to him, ‘if you wish to be perfect, go sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.’” Here faith is not even mentioned.
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I think that as much as Jesus wanted the man to perform acts of mercy, I see it also as self-denial and detachments from obstacles to doing God’s will. So it is not just the acts, but the poverty that will result that Jesus needs this man to experience. The man walks away sadly. We don’t know what happened after that. I can imagine though with those words from our Lord planted in your soul from that experience, being some very Good Seed, it could be very soon when you would see the light.
:newidea:
Luke 13:3 – “But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did”. Here the Lord states that repentance is necessary for salvation.
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I would call repentance a work. Repentance is necessary to purify faith, so I’d say that like work, repentance is needed to build faith. And it is by faith we are saved, but I think there’s a point at which our faith is not mature enough to yield the kind of fruit it should be yielding.
John 6:36 – “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him”. Here the Lord stresses the importance of having faith and being obedient if we are to have eternal life.
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I see this is an action item based on loving God, ourselves, and others. :love:

So yes, I’d say we have a work reference. But then again, since I am associating faith-building with works here, then I’m saying works build the faith that justifies. Maybe where we have to be careful is by believing that the quality or quantity or the works factor into some formula. Also one person’s faith may need much more purification time to repent than another. So we need to work to build faith to be saved, until we are born of the spirit into the kingdom.
John 14:21 – “Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him”. Here the Lord makes it clear that if we love him, we will keep his commandments and we will see God. One way to show our love for the Lord is to follow the commandments.
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Again I see this as a call to do corporal and spiritual acts of mercy. Because it is all in the context of love. I like to look at it from a kingdom POV which could be that pure love naturally draws upon the law written on our heart, to not only keep the original commandments but to be sensitive to the guidance of the spirit how to hold to them in any given situation.

This also shows to me that if we have faith, we will be predisposed toward doing acts of love. Thus it reinforces a point you made earlier.
These are just a few of the ones I have stumbled on that clarified this for me. I am sure there are more.
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Thank you so much for your reply! :tiphat:

Alan
 
Guys, I HIGHLY recommend the book “Surprised by Truth” for any Catholic stumped by their Bible-thumping buddies. On page 129, a man named Bob Sungenis (one of 11 converts who tell their stories) cites some Church history:

In order to substantiate his claims that man was justified by faith alone, Luther deliberately added the words “alone” to his German translation of Romans 3:28. In reality, the only time “alone” appears with the word “faith” in the Greek text is in James 2:24 where it says we are “not saved by faith alone.” Luther defended his novel addition bragging, “You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word ‘alone’ is not in the text of Paul. If your Papist makes such an unnecessary row about the word ‘alone,’ say right out to him: ‘Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,’ and say: ‘Papists and asses are one and the same thing.’ I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text, and it was not necessary for the Papists to teach me that. It is true those letters are not in it, which letters the jackasses look at, as a cow stares at a new gate… It shall remain in my New Testament, and if all the Popish donkeys were to get mad and beside themselves, the will not get it out.”
 
AlanFromWichita said:
And it is by faith we are saved, but I think there’s a point at which our faith is not mature enough to yield the kind of fruit it should be yielding.
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Be careful with saying this, because it is BY GRACE that we are saved, THROUGH faith (that is, a living faith which is evident by works).

Also, remember the parable of the faith that is the size of a mustard seed. A faith of that size is said to be able to move mountains (metaphorically speaking). So, even those with even the smallest amount of a living faith can accomplish great works.
 
+JMJ+
AlanFromWichita said:
I’ve seen “faith without works” many times, but I never really noticed until today, where it says:

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.

Isn’t this sola fide or some other thing we say that Protestants say? That we are saved through our faith and not our works?

Granted faith is dead without works. (James 2:17-18) So I’m not saying you can have faith without works, but that it is the faith that saves you and not the works – as is specifically stated in Ephesians and for that matter some places in Galatians 2 and 3 seem to speak the same way. Why do so many Catholics say we are not saved through faith alone but by our works? It is just a logic game we play to the Protestants and us to differentiate ourselves over what means effectively nothing in terms of how we are to think and act?

Alan
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You should include the next verse.

Eph 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

In other words, our faith tells us that we must do good works. If we do not do good works, then we do not believe in our faith.
 
Romans 3:28 “For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from the law.”

I think that this is the verse spoken of. But “works of the law” would be those laws of the Old Testament. We aren’t required to sacrifice animals and all that other “ritual” stuff. But we still have to obey God, and that means doing what He has called us to do.
 
Paul is writing to a subgroup that think they are saved by works alone.

James writes to heretics who believe they are saved by faith alone.

They don’t contradict, they are just targeting different audiences.

It’s appropriate to say we are saved by faith, or by faith and works.

Just don’t affirm we are saved by only believing without changing our life.

Trent:

If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to the obtaining [of] the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

Pope Benedict XVI:

Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love.*
 
The meaning of the whole Eph 2 (and not only of the green quote) is to emphasize the correct causal order of things, which is GRACE → faith → works, not to eliminate works from the equation. The incorrect logic is to say that our works are the “primum movens” here (“boasting”), but this doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do anything at all.

Pope Benedict explains very clearly this causal order of things:
The Church does not begin with our “making”, but with the “making” and “speaking” of God. In the same way, the Apostles did not say, after a few meetings: now we want to make a Church, and that by means of a constituent assembly they were going to draft a constitution. No, they prayed and in prayer they waited, because they knew that only God himself can create his Church, that God is the first agent: if God does not act, our things are only ours and are insufficient; only God can testify that it is he who speaks and has spoken. Pentecost is the condition of the birth of the Church: only because God acted first, are the Apostles able to act with him and make what he does present. God has spoken and this “has spoken” is the perfection of faith but it is also always a present: the perfection of God is not only a past, because it is a true past that always carries in itself the present and the future. God has spoken means: “He speaks”. And as at that time it was only on God’s initiative that the Church could be born, that the Gospel could be known, the fact that God spoke and speaks, in the same way today only God can begin, we can only cooperate, but the beginning must come from God. So it is not a mere formality if we start our sessions each day with prayer: this corresponds to reality itself. Only God’s precedence makes our journey possible, our cooperation, which is always cooperation, and not entirely our own decision. Therefore, it is important always to know that the first word, the true initiative, the true activity comes from God and only by inserting ourselves into the divine initiative, only by begging for this divine initiative, shall we too be able to become — with him and in him — evangelizers. God is always the beginning, and it is always only he who can make Pentecost, who can create the Church, who can show the reality of his being with us. On the other hand, however, this God, who is always the beginning, also wants to involve our activity, so that the activities are theandric, so to speak, made by God, but with our involvement and implying our being, all our activity.
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vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2012/october/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20121008_meditazione-sinodo_en.html
 
AlanFromWichita said:
I’ve seen “faith without works” many times, but I never really noticed until today, where it says:

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.

Isn’t this sola fide or some other thing we say that Protestants say? That we are saved through our faith and not our works?

Granted faith is dead without works. (James 2:17-18) So I’m not saying you can have faith without works, but that it is the faith that saves you and not the works – as is specifically stated in Ephesians and for that matter some places in Galatians 2 and 3 seem to speak the same way. Why do so many Catholics say we are not saved through faith alone but by our works? It is just a logic game we play to the Protestants and us to differentiate ourselves over what means effectively nothing in terms of how we are to think and act?

Alan
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“It is not from works” is talking about GRACE, not salvation.

GRACE is not from us or our works, but God’s gift to us to help us LIVE OUT OUR FAITH, because faith without works is dead (James2). What we do with that grace is our choice, either to live out our faith or do nothing. This verse is much more about grace than it is faith.

This is the problem with relying solely on personal interpretations of Scripture- how easy it is to lead one’s self down the wrong path. Scripture does not contradict itself, so proper context must be taken.

“For even the demons believe, and tremble.” :eek:
 
Christy_Beth said:
Romans 3:28 “For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from the law.”

I think that this is the verse spoken of. But “works of the law” would be those laws of the Old Testament. We aren’t required to sacrifice animals and all that other “ritual” stuff. But we still have to obey God, and that means doing what He has called us to do.
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This is a great point. That book I was recommending- Suprised by Truth- deals with this as well. Helpful not only to Protestants, but to Catholics who cannot explain why we DON’T still keep to all those ancient Hebrew traditions.
 
AlanFromWichita said:
Isn’t this sola fide or some other thing we say that Protestants say? That we are saved through our faith and not our works?
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  1. No.
  2. The Catholic Church of course professes what Paul wrote there.
(one though needs to know what he means there…)
 
nuntym said:
+JMJ+

You should include the next verse.

Eph 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

In other words, our faith tells us that we must do good works. If we do not do good works, then we do not believe in our faith.
Click to expand...
We are the hands and feet of Christ since he is not physically here in body (except for the Eucharist) so it is through our faith that our works come from.
 
bzkoss236 said:
Be careful with saying this, because it is BY GRACE that we are saved, THROUGH faith (that is, a living faith which is evident by works).

Also, remember the parable of the faith that is the size of a mustard seed. A faith of that size is said to be able to move mountains (metaphorically speaking). So, even those with even the smallest amount of a living faith can accomplish great works.
Click to expand...
Yes, this. 👍
 
AlanFromWichita said:
I’ve seen “faith without works” many times, but I never really noticed until today, where it says:

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.

Isn’t this sola fide or some other thing we say that Protestants say? That we are saved through our faith and not our works?

Granted faith is dead without works. (James 2:17-18) So I’m not saying you can have faith without works, but that it is the faith that saves you and not the works – as is specifically stated in Ephesians and for that matter some places in Galatians 2 and 3 seem to speak the same way. Why do so many Catholics say we are not saved through faith alone but by our works? It is just a logic game we play to the Protestants and us to differentiate ourselves over what means effectively nothing in terms of how we are to think and act?

Alan
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You KNOW we are not saved by faith alone, because of other verses. Remember, the Catholic Church rightly teaches we read, and interpret the scripture as a whole! So look back at that verse again. FOCUS ON THE SUBJECT OF THE FIRST LINE…

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this (grace) is not from you; it (grace) is the gift of God; it (grace) is not from works, so no one may boast.

Now it is properly understood 👍
 
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