Saving a JW's Immortal Soul

[MrZetterlund]

I’m in a debate with a Jehovah’s Witness and I happen to bring up when Jesus said “Today, you shall be with me in Paradise…” (Luke 23:43) as proof that the soul is immortal. However, my oponent has made a forceful point, that Jesus actually DIDN’T go to heaven that day. So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt. 12:40 cf. Matt. 16:21). How could the Son of man be both in heaven and in the earth at the same time?

Help? -_-

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I’m in a debate with a Jehovah’s Witness and I happen to bring up when Jesus said “Today, you shall be with me in Paradise…” (Luke 23:43) as proof that the soul is immortal. However, my oponent has made a forceful point, that Jesus actually DIDN’T go to heaven that day. So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt. 12:40 cf. Matt. 16:21). How could the Son of man be both in heaven and in the earth at the same time?

Help? -_-

First, I would not use that as a proof of immortal soul, Just the proof of forgivness and going to Heaven.

I would use the transfiguration. also I would use Chirst speaking of enternal punishment and being in the lake of fire for those whom salvation is lost. Revelation speaks of the saints in heaven already heaven at the end times. REV 20 11-15

 

[feargalmac]

We have God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. God the Son, Jesus, spent three days and nights in the earth. Being three parts to the one God, of course there was no reason why the good thief would not be with Him in Paradise. Don’t forget though that jw’s believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael, however nowhere even in their own translation of the Bible does it say this.

 

[FCEGM]

I’m in a debate with a Jehovah’s Witness and I happen to bring up when Jesus said “Today, you shall be with me in Paradise…” (Luke 23:43) as proof that the soul is immortal. However, my oponent has made a forceful point, that Jesus actually DIDN’T go to heaven that day. So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt. 12:40 cf. Matt. 16:21). How could the Son of man be both in heaven and in the earth at the same time?

Help? -_-

Keep in mind that while Our Lord rose from the dead on the third day this doesn’t mean that His soul wasn’t in Heaven at the time of His death (and thus He spoke truthfully to the Good Thief who, likewise, was with Him in Heaven). Unlike Our Lord, though, whose human soul was united with His Glorified Body at His Resurrection, the soul of the Good Thief will be united with his body at the general resurrection at the end of the world - as will ours be). The JW is actually arguing against his own position.

 

[FCEGM]

We have God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. God the Son, Jesus, spent three days and nights in the earth. Being three parts to the one God, of course there was no reason why the good thief would not be with Him in Paradise. Don’t forget though that jw’s believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael, however nowhere even in their own translation of the Bible does it say this.

God is not three parts, but three Persons, each wholly God; the “Him” applicable here can only be the Person of God the Son Incarnate, Jesus.

 

[MrZetterlund]

We have God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. God the Son, Jesus, spent three days and nights in the earth. Being three parts to the one God, of course there was no reason why the good thief would not be with Him in Paradise. Don’t forget though that jw’s believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael, however nowhere even in their own translation of the Bible does it say this.

I highly doubt that the criminal crucified beside Jesus’ theology was developed enough to percieve the concept of the trinity.

 

[Regardless]

I highly doubt that the criminal crucified beside Jesus’ theology was developed enough to percieve the concept of the trinity.

The Greek word “Paradise” is Paradeisos. It refers to a park like garden. (Vine’s dictionary) The same word was used in the Greek Septuagint translation of Gen 2:8 referring to the Garden of Eden, and Eccl. 2:5, Isa. 1:30, Ezekiel. 31:9. All these refer to a beautiful park on earth.
This was the word Jesus used for where this criminal would be.

The Greek for “heaven” is ouranos. Jesus didn’t say that.
Peter used that word when referring to Jesus “…at the right hand of God, for he went his way to heaven…” (1 Peter 3:21)

You make a good point when you say the criminal would not have understood a mysterious Trinity. From the verse quoted we see neither did Peter. Also where Peter called Jesus: “The Son of the living God.” (Matt. 16:16.) Not “God the Son” as posts 3 and 5 here called him. (But of course, they were not quoting the Bible)

What would the criminal have understood? If he was a Jew, he would have believed:

1. The soul is mortal. - “The soul thet sinneth shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4.)
2. There is a future hope on earth for the meek. –(Psalms 37:11,29)
3. The resurrection to this paradise earth would be much later. – (Dan 12:13, John 11:24.)

 

[Pastor_David]

The verse in Colossians 1:15 is the one Watchtower Adherents try to prove that Jesus Christ is the firstborn of ALL creation. The NKJV, KJV and NIV render this verse as HE is the “firstborn over all creation”

So WT followers and others believe that this verse is showing that the Lord Jesus Christ is the firstborn OF all creation, instead of firstborn OVER all creation.

Jesus pre human existance is explained in John 1:1 where we are informed that in the beginning was the WORD (Logos) and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD was God. This shows that the WORD was within the Godhead at that time and proceeded forth when creation took place as the WORD is the creator.

When sin entered the world through Adams disobedience, a redeemer was needed and the WORD later became that redeemer by becoming a Man by natural birth by means of the Holy Spirit transferring him to the womb of Mary.

That is when the WORD became flesh or the Only Begotten Son of God. Paul wrote in Colossians that the Son is the image of the Invisible God and that he did the creating.

Revelation 1:5 tells us that the risen Lord Jesus Christ is the “Firstborn from the DEAD”, so now it all makes sense. As a man born from a Virgin Jewish Girl he is the “Only Begotten Son of God” but later he is called the “Firstborn Son” in Colossians 1 and in other verses such as Romans 8:29 and even verse 18 of Colossians 1, where he is also called the firstborn from the dead.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, he told him that he needed to be Born Again. In those days a man went through 7 various births. Obviously his birth as a baby, but up till the age of 30 another 6 births. So Nicodemus wanted to know what Jesus meant. Nico by the way means Boss, Victor or Governor over the people. Watchtower Faith & Discreet Slave class believe that they are the only ones whom God uses on Earth.

Jesus Christ opened up the way, by becoming the firstborn of the dead for all of those who he calls his Sons and Daughters to be reborn with him into his death and life.

This is a superb teaching point to WT captives and others who do not accept the true Divinity of our Lord and Saviour.

Freemasonry keeps people away from the TRUTH of Yeshua. The Watchtower is founded on Freemasonry, which is disguised witchcraft.

Pray that all captives to these cults will be released from darkness into the LIGHT of YESHUA/JESUS Christ.

He is the ONLY Way the ONLY truth and the ONLY life.

Many blessings to all truthseekers

David

 

[pablope]

I’m in a debate with a Jehovah’s Witness and I happen to bring up when Jesus said “Today, you shall be with me in Paradise…” (Luke 23:43) as proof that the soul is immortal. However, my oponent has made a forceful point, that Jesus actually DIDN’T go to heaven that day. So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt. 12:40 cf. Matt. 16:21). How could the Son of man be both in heaven and in the earth at the same time?

Help? -_-

From:

*Hadock’s Catholic Bible Commentary:

I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise; i.e. in a place of rest with the
souls of the just. The construction is not, I say to thee this day, &c., but, thou shalt be with
me this day in the paradise. (Witham) — In paradise. That is, in the happy state of rest,
joy and peace everlasting.

Christ was pleased by a special privilege, to reward the faith and confession of the
penitent thief with a full discharge of all his sins, both as to the guilt and punishment,
and to introduce him, immediately after death, into the happy society of the saints, whose
limbo (that is, the place of their confinement) was now made a paradise by our Lord’s
going thither. [As a side note, Armored Catholic would like to clarify that the limbo being
spoken of here is not the limbo we commonly imagine. He is rather referring to
Abraham’s bosom which was located in Sheol, the abode of the dead prior to Christ’s
death on the cross.]

(Challoner) — The soul of the good thief was that same day with Jesus Christ, in the
felicity of the saints, in Abraham’s bosom, or in heaven, where Jesus was always
present by his divinity. (St. Augustine) — St. Cyril, of Jerusalem, says he entered heaven
before all the patriarchs and prophets. St. Chrysostom thinks that paradise was
immediately open to him, and that he entered heaven the first mankind. (Tom. v. homil.
32.)
*

 

[pablope]

I highly doubt that the criminal crucified beside Jesus’ theology was developed enough to percieve the concept of the trinity.

Remember, it was Jesus who was speaking about saving the good thief. There was no need to explain the concept of the Trinity to him at that very moment. What is important to keep in mind is the faith of the thief in Jesus’ saving power to save him that very time, that very day, in his repentance for his sins…to be with Jesus in Paradise.

 

[pablope]

The Greek word “Paradise” is Paradeisos. It refers to a park like garden. (Vine’s dictionary) The same word was used in the Greek Septuagint translation of Gen 2:8 referring to the Garden of Eden, and Eccl. 2:5, Isa. 1:30, Ezekiel. 31:9. All these refer to a beautiful park on earth.
This was the word Jesus used for where this criminal would be.

The Greek for “heaven” is ouranos. Jesus didn’t say that.
Peter used that word when referring to Jesus “…at the right hand of God, for he went his way to heaven…” (1 Peter 3:21)

What would the criminal have understood? If he was a Jew, he would have believed:

1. The soul is mortal. - “The soul thet sinneth shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4.)
2. There is a future hope on earth for the meek. –(Psalms 37:11,29)
3. The resurrection to this paradise earth would be much later. – (Dan 12:13, John 11:24.)

You are stating the Greek word meaning, but, what did the Jews believed is referred to with the word “Paradise” in the verse?

If he was a Jew, he would have believed:

I think if he was a Jew, he would have believed in Sheol and Abraham’s Bosom.

 

[Regardless]

You are stating the Greek word meaning, but, what did the Jews believed is referred to with the word “Paradise” in the verse?

If he was a Jew, he would have believed:

I think if he was a Jew, he would have believed in Sheol and Abraham’s Bosom.

Yes.
As I said in my first post: The word ‘Paradise’ Jesus used is the same as Gen 2:8. = A parklike garden on earth. ‘Paradise.’

Sheol? Yes, he would have believed that was where he was heading. (Sheol = Hell in many translations.)
The Hebrew word ‘Sheol’ (hades in Greek) is used in Eccl. 9:10. “…in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.” (NIV) Nothing.
A few verses earlier it says: “For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing; …”
The Jews did not believe in an immortal soul. (Most pagan religions did however)
I quote again Ezekiel 18:4. “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (KJV)

The criminal knew at death he would be unconcious. But was comforted by Jesus reminder of a future resurection to earth. The same comforting thought Martha knew:

“Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” (John 11:23,24.KJV)

Jesus taught that at John 5:28,29.

There would be no need of this resurrection the Bible teaches, if the soul is immortal and does not die.
(The term “Immortal soul” is not found in the Bible)

 

[pablope]

Yes.
As I said in my first post: The word ‘Paradise’ Jesus used is the same as Gen 2:8. = A parklike garden on earth. ‘Paradise.’

**Actually, I beg to disagree with you. The Paradise Jesus mentions is Abraham’s Bosom, which every Jew knew was the place of the just. **

Sheol? Yes, he would have believed that was where he was heading. (Sheol = Hell in many translations.)

**Again, the anwer is no. It is the CC teaching that he was saved that day, and was brought by Jesus to Abraham’s Bosom, later to Heaven, because of his repentance and faith. **

The Hebrew word ‘Sheol’ (hades in Greek) is used in Eccl. 9:10. “…in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.” (NIV) Nothing.
A few verses earlier it says: “For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing; …”

The Jews did not believe in an immortal soul. (Most pagan religions did however)

**I am not sure about this. Do you have proof from Jewish beliefs? Also, the mere fact that they believed in Sheol and Abraham’s Bosom belies what you said. **

I quote again Ezekiel 18:4. “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (KJV)

The criminal knew at death he would be unconcious. But was comforted by Jesus reminder of a future resurection to earth.

**The words of Jesus are clear, the thief would be saved and be alive with Jesus in Paradise, or Abraham’s Bosom…and be with the OT righteous, among them, Elijah, Moses, Abraham, Jacob. **

The same comforting thought Martha knew:

“Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” (John 11:23,24.KJV)

Jesus taught that at John 5:28,29.

There would be no need of this resurrection the Bible teaches, if the soul is immortal and does not die.

**Actually, the body dies, expires, but the soul does not. In the Transfiguration, Elijah and Moses are proof that there is a resurrection and the soul lives on. Secondly, if the Bible teaches it, you seem to be implying that you do not believe it? **

(The term “Immortal soul” is not found in the Bible)]

**Why does it have to be in the Bible? This is puzzling. It does not have to say such, it could be implied some other way. There are many words not in the Bible used to describe terms, meanings, beliefs, but are believed. **

 

[Regardless]

**Actually, I beg to disagree with you. The Paradise Jesus mentions is Abraham’s Bosom, which every Jew knew was the place of the just. **

**Again, the anwer is no. It is the CC teaching that he was saved that day, and was brought by Jesus to Abraham’s Bosom, later to Heaven, because of his repentance and faith. **

**I am not sure about this. Do you have proof from Jewish beliefs? Also, the mere fact that they believed in Sheol and Abraham’s Bosom belies what you said. **

**The words of Jesus are clear, the thief would be saved and be alive with Jesus in Paradise, or Abraham’s Bosom…and be with the OT righteous, among them, Elijah, Moses, Abraham, Jacob. **

**Actually, the body dies, expires, but the soul does not. In the Transfiguration, Elijah and Moses are proof that there is a resurrection and the soul lives on. Secondly, if the Bible teaches it, you seem to be implying that you do not believe it? **

**Why does it have to be in the Bible? This is puzzling. It does not have to say such, it could be implied some other way. There are many words not in the Bible used to describe terms, meanings, beliefs, but are believed. **

Can you show me where these points are in the Bible?

 

[dtg]

Look at these two passages where it talks about the spirit of Jesus being apart from the body: Luke 23: 46 and 1 Peter 3: 18,19 (supporting the idea that Jesus could be in paradise while his body was dead)

---

The Bible in a Verse

But now once at the conclusion of the ages Jesus has
appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hebrews 9: 26b

 

[Pastor_David]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 tells us that we are BODY, SOUL & SPIRIT.

“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

The flesh SOMA in Greek will perish and go back to the ground, the SOUL is dependant on what we do in our lives. The battle is for the SOUL and Satan wants it.

If we are truly Born Again and accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour, then we have the Holy Spirit living within us and we become a NEW creation.

When we die it is the SPIRIT that returns to God and if we are BA then at the last trumpet the dead will arise first and all those who are still living will meet the Lord in the air.

The WT position is wrong on this point and so is the RC position as there is no such thing as an Immortal Soul as Jesus himself confirmed in Matthew 10:28 where he said:

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”

Quite clear that Jesus taught that the SOUL can die.

However the WT position states that dead people go into a SOUL sleep situation, which is not correct as it is not found in the Bible. Those who are in the graves are dead and will be ressurrected back to life in order to be given life or condemnation. The Spirit of the person will already be with God.

Both of these teachings are from the enemy as they are supporting the lie he first told Eve. He said that Adam & Eve would not die, but they did and he is the Father of the LIE that has found its way into Babylonish religion.

Blessings

David

 

[Regardless]

Look at these two passages where it talks about the spirit of Jesus being apart from the body: Luke 23: 46 and 1 Peter 3: 18,19 (supporting the idea that Jesus could be in paradise while his body was dead)

But those versus apply to the word ‘spirit.’ Not ‘Soul.’ The Greek for Spirit is *pneuma *which primarily denotes “wind” or “breath”. Luke 23:46 says: “Jesus called with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” And he expired.” So any hope of future life or breath for Jesus, was now in the hands of his Father. (there are several uses of “spirit”, but here it applies to that which gives life to a body)

“Soul” is a different word. In Greek it is psy khe’ . It means the life that a person or animal has. This thread is about immortal souls.
But Ezekiel 18:4 says souls can die. (not immortal)
Jesus is an example. John 10:11 says: “i am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul (psy khe’ ) in behalf of his sheep.” (Interesting. Most translations translate psy khe’ “‘life” here, but translate psy khe’ “soul” in Matt. 10:28. They mustn’t want their readers to know the same word was used for Jesus giving up his life. )
A consistent translation shows the soul (psy khe’) cannot be immortal or Jesus never really died.

 

[Regardless]

…
The WT position is wrong on this point and so is the RC position as there is no such thing as an Immortal Soul as Jesus himself confirmed in Matthew 10:28 where he said:

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”

Quite clear that Jesus taught that the SOUL can die.

However the WT position states that dead people go into a SOUL sleep situation, which is not correct as it is not found in the Bible. …

David

I have never seen the term “soul sleep” in any WT. (Please quote for me if it exists)
We believe the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4. Matt 10:28)
Jehovah’s Witnesses know humans do not have an immortal soul.

i am surprised though. I thought born-again Christians did believe in an immortal soul.

 

[pablope]

Can you show me where these points are in the Bible?

To shorten the response, I will include only one or two or three verses, but please look up the whole section of where the verse it to get its fullness.

*Actually, I beg to disagree with you. The Paradise Jesus mentions is Abraham’s Bosom, which every Jew knew was the place of the just.

Again, the anwer is no. It is the CC teaching that he was saved that day, and was brought by Jesus to Abraham’s Bosom, later to Heaven, because of his repentance and faith.
*
See post #9. Also Luke 23: 43:
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, **Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
**

Paradise to a Jew meant Abraham’s Bosom, the place of the Just in the OT.

*I am not sure about this. Do you have proof from Jewish beliefs? Also, the mere fact that they believed in Sheol and Abraham’s Bosom belies what you said.

The words of Jesus are clear, the thief would be saved and be alive with Jesus in Paradise, or Abraham’s Bosom…and be with the OT righteous, among them, Elijah, Moses, Abraham, Jacob.

Actually, the body dies, expires, but the soul does not. In the Transfiguration, Elijah and Moses are proof that there is a resurrection and the soul lives on. Secondly, if the Bible teaches it, you seem to be implying that you do not believe it?
*
Additional verses:
Look at the Transfiguration accounts in the Gospels.

Rev 4:

4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Revelation 6:9-11

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 5:

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[pablope]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 tells us that we are BODY, SOUL & SPIRIT.

“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

The flesh SOMA in Greek will perish and go back to the ground, the SOUL is dependant on what we do in our lives. The battle is for the SOUL and Satan wants it.

If we are truly Born Again and accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour, then we have the Holy Spirit living within us and we become a NEW creation.

When we die it is the SPIRIT that returns to God and if we are BA then at the last trumpet the dead will arise first and all those who are still living will meet the Lord in the air.

**Question: Are you inferring that you mean the same thing when you state “soul” and “spirit”?
**

The WT position is wrong on this point and

**so is the RC position as there is no such thing as an Immortal Soul
**

**Could you cite your sources for this conclusion of yours?
**
as Jesus himself confirmed in Matthew 10:28 where he said:

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”

**I think “him” here refers to God. Since God is creator of the soul too, then He, and only He can destroy what he created. But we know that God does not destroy what He creates, otherwise, He would have destroyed Satan. Hence, the soul is immortal and as per God’s will. This could also mean God can confine a soul and body to hell, thereby, in effect destroying it…or one loses ones salvation **

Quite clear that Jesus taught that the SOUL can die.

As per God’s will, for He created it and cause it to die, if He wished. But will God wish it so?

However the WT position states that dead people go into a SOUL sleep situation, which is not correct as it is not found in the Bible. Those who are in the graves are dead and will be ressurrected back to life in order to be given life or condemnation. The Spirit of the person will already be with God.

Both of these teachings are from the enemy as they are supporting the lie he first told Eve. He said that Adam & Eve would not die, but they did and he is the Father of the LIE that has found its way into Babylonish religion.
**
Who are you referring to here? Could you elaborate.**

Blessings

David