P
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
P
Pastor_David
Guest
The reason I quoted the scripture in 1 Thessalonians 5, was to show that Paul recognised that we are a Tri Part creation, BODY, SOUL & SPIRIT. Therefore the Soul is NOT the Spirit.
The Greek word used for God Breathed in Adam the BREATH od Life is pronounced PERNEVMA and is know in Greek as AYOU PERNEVMA or HOLY SPIRIT in English.
When we accept Yeshua/Isou/Jesus as our Lord and King, we become a New Creation, because AYOU PERNEVMA is living in us.
The Soul is our Intellect, Desires and everything else that makes up our character. Even animals have a Soul as the Bible tells us. God said that to him ALL souls do belong, the souls of animal and mankind.
There has been a battle since the FALL between Satan and God for the Soul’s of everyone of us. Its not the flesh although that obviously hosts the Soul and its not the Spirit. Jesus identified his own and those who belonged to Satan, when he said YOU are from your Father the Devil.
So the SPIRIT that lives within us, is far more than Wind or Breath. He is called Holy, so how can Wind or Breath be called HOLY?
He is a person and is the all knowing OMNIPOTENT ONE. He is the COMFORTER of everyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ.
Interesting Comment by Pablope, when you said that God can destroy if he wishes too. Does that mean that you believe the Universalist teaching that everyone is saved in the end? I don’t think that is what you mean, but very often we can read things into scripture that are not there. Jesus said, Do not be afraid of those who kill your body, but rather HIM who can KILL both your Body and SOUL in Gehenna. Jesus used the word Kill, which is Nechro (death) in Greek. I think that answers that the SOUL is NOT immortal.
Obviously this subject is very difficult one and it is mainly because much of the Church are not aware of the differences between the SOUL & SPIRIT.
The Soul is US along with all of what is stored in the Lymbic system, all of our memories and experiences, customs, teachings as children, culture and on and on.
The breathe of life, is that power of God that keeps us alive and moves through every living breather. The Holy Spirit however is totally different and is all a part of God and HE is the Sustainer, the Teacher, the Comforter and so on.
Unless we allow him in and accept Jesus Christ as our one and only MEDIATOR, then we have NO LIFE within us.
For Jesus said he is the TRUTH, the LIFE and the WAY. We can only approach the Father through Jesus Christ. Unfortunately the WT Society do not believe or teach that, so all WT Witnesses have to go through their F&DSlave class.
There is only ONE TRUTH and that is JESUS CHRIST, HIM CRUCIFIED and RAISED FROM THE DEAD and sitting at the right hand of the Father.
We are saved by GRACE, NOT works. We are not told anywhere in the Bible to put in so many hours witnessing a month. James said that Faith without works is DEAD and then he told us what works they were and they are looking after widows and orphans.
Often the WT talks about those who are ASLEEP in death and many say, they are just asleep until Jehovah brings them back. In other words SOUL SLEEP.
Dear JW, why don’t you just ask Jesus Christ to be your saviour and then all the struggling and worrying about whether or not you will get though Armageddon will be gone. Read Romans 8:1 where Paul wrote, THERE IS NO MORE CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO REMAIN IN CHRIST. The whole chapter talks about Grace in every other Bible, not ‘undeserved kindness’ Grace is unearned LOVE (Agape) of our dear Lord. John 3:16 says FOR GOD SO LOVED the WORLD that he gave his ONE and ONLY SON FOR YOU.
Its all about LOVE and not duty and works. Jesus set us free from all of that, when he died with ALL of our garbage on the CROSS. I know you do not accept the cross, but It was NOT a stake, as even the Bible itself proves it. STAUROS in Greek is CROSS.
Blessings
David
The Greek word used for God Breathed in Adam the BREATH od Life is pronounced PERNEVMA and is know in Greek as AYOU PERNEVMA or HOLY SPIRIT in English.
When we accept Yeshua/Isou/Jesus as our Lord and King, we become a New Creation, because AYOU PERNEVMA is living in us.
The Soul is our Intellect, Desires and everything else that makes up our character. Even animals have a Soul as the Bible tells us. God said that to him ALL souls do belong, the souls of animal and mankind.
There has been a battle since the FALL between Satan and God for the Soul’s of everyone of us. Its not the flesh although that obviously hosts the Soul and its not the Spirit. Jesus identified his own and those who belonged to Satan, when he said YOU are from your Father the Devil.
So the SPIRIT that lives within us, is far more than Wind or Breath. He is called Holy, so how can Wind or Breath be called HOLY?
He is a person and is the all knowing OMNIPOTENT ONE. He is the COMFORTER of everyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ.
Interesting Comment by Pablope, when you said that God can destroy if he wishes too. Does that mean that you believe the Universalist teaching that everyone is saved in the end? I don’t think that is what you mean, but very often we can read things into scripture that are not there. Jesus said, Do not be afraid of those who kill your body, but rather HIM who can KILL both your Body and SOUL in Gehenna. Jesus used the word Kill, which is Nechro (death) in Greek. I think that answers that the SOUL is NOT immortal.
Obviously this subject is very difficult one and it is mainly because much of the Church are not aware of the differences between the SOUL & SPIRIT.
The Soul is US along with all of what is stored in the Lymbic system, all of our memories and experiences, customs, teachings as children, culture and on and on.
The breathe of life, is that power of God that keeps us alive and moves through every living breather. The Holy Spirit however is totally different and is all a part of God and HE is the Sustainer, the Teacher, the Comforter and so on.
Unless we allow him in and accept Jesus Christ as our one and only MEDIATOR, then we have NO LIFE within us.
For Jesus said he is the TRUTH, the LIFE and the WAY. We can only approach the Father through Jesus Christ. Unfortunately the WT Society do not believe or teach that, so all WT Witnesses have to go through their F&DSlave class.
There is only ONE TRUTH and that is JESUS CHRIST, HIM CRUCIFIED and RAISED FROM THE DEAD and sitting at the right hand of the Father.
We are saved by GRACE, NOT works. We are not told anywhere in the Bible to put in so many hours witnessing a month. James said that Faith without works is DEAD and then he told us what works they were and they are looking after widows and orphans.
Often the WT talks about those who are ASLEEP in death and many say, they are just asleep until Jehovah brings them back. In other words SOUL SLEEP.
Dear JW, why don’t you just ask Jesus Christ to be your saviour and then all the struggling and worrying about whether or not you will get though Armageddon will be gone. Read Romans 8:1 where Paul wrote, THERE IS NO MORE CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO REMAIN IN CHRIST. The whole chapter talks about Grace in every other Bible, not ‘undeserved kindness’ Grace is unearned LOVE (Agape) of our dear Lord. John 3:16 says FOR GOD SO LOVED the WORLD that he gave his ONE and ONLY SON FOR YOU.
Its all about LOVE and not duty and works. Jesus set us free from all of that, when he died with ALL of our garbage on the CROSS. I know you do not accept the cross, but It was NOT a stake, as even the Bible itself proves it. STAUROS in Greek is CROSS.
Blessings
David
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
The main flaw in the rebuttal is equating “paradise” with “heaven.” They are not the same. The “paradise” being spoke of here is where the Old Testament saints were kept (cf Lk 16:22f) until Heaven was opened (at Christ’s Resurrection).I’m in a debate with a Jehovah’s Witness and I happen to bring up when Jesus said “Today, you shall be with me in Paradise…” (Luke 23:43) as proof that the soul is immortal. However, my oponent has made a forceful point, that Jesus actually DIDN’T go to heaven that day. So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt. 12:40 cf. Matt. 16:21). How could the Son of man be both in heaven and in the earth at the same time?
Help? -_-
So at 3pm on Good Friday, Jesus truly died, and His Soul really did go to Paradise, which is where the Good Thief’s soul was sent (indicating he was saved).
P
pablope
Guest
*Interesting Comment by Pablope, when you said that God can destroy if he wishes too. Does that mean that you believe the Universalist teaching that everyone is saved in the end? I don’t think that is what you mean…The reason I quoted the scripture in 1 Thessalonians 5, was to show that Paul recognised that we are a Tri Part creation, BODY, SOUL & SPIRIT. Therefore the Soul is NOT the Spirit.
So the SPIRIT that lives within us, is far more than Wind or Breath. He is called Holy, so how can Wind or Breath be called HOLY?
He is a person and is the all knowing OMNIPOTENT ONE. He is the COMFORTER of everyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ.
Interesting Comment by Pablope, when you said that God can destroy if he wishes too. Does that mean that you believe the Universalist teaching that everyone is saved in the end? I don’t think that is what you mean, but very often we can read things into scripture that are not there. Jesus said, Do not be afraid of those who kill your body, but rather HIM who can KILL both your Body and SOUL in Gehenna. Jesus used the word Kill, which is Nechro (death) in Greek. I think that answers that the SOUL is NOT immortal.
Its all about LOVE and not duty and works. Jesus set us free from all of that, when he died with ALL of our garbage on the CROSS. I know you do not accept the cross, but It was NOT a stake, as even the Bible itself proves it. STAUROS in Greek is CROSS.
Blessings
David
*
Of course not…what I meant was that God created, and since he is the creator, He has the power to destroy what He created…but we know that He will not destroy what He created…He has a purpose for what he created…otherwise, He would have destroyed Satan when he rebelled against God.
C
CeelosDeznos
Guest
There are members of my family that associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses during the last part of the 20th century. I got to learn a lot about their religion and would like to pass on something about this.
Unfortunately, under normal circumstances we can never realisitically hope to convince a Witness who does not wish to risk walking outside of the parameters of their religion that their beliefs are not accurate. For the Witness believes that anything outside their religion is under the control of Satan.
So it is not only that do they not comprehend a lot of what we say (since they apply different definitions to the terms we might both share), they wouldn’t waste too much time trying to understand religion as we do. Would you try to understand something you knew was coming from demons? That is how they view our beliefs. Therefore such an interchange as we are discussing here is not the way to get anything across to one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
A faithful Jehovah’s Witness would never inquire what Catholics believe in order to genuinely learn from us. That would be an act of heresy to them. All “interest” is just a means to hopefully find a common ground on which the Witness can use as a platform to explain their beliefs and to try to teach us.
So before discussing doctrine, learn if the person is really interested in learning about being Catholic and possibly becoming one (at the risk of being what they call being “disfellowshipped”) or if this is just another one of their well-practiced means to get you to listen to one of the many presentations they are taught to offer to the public.
Ask why the Witness wants to share a thought from the Bible with you. Why are they engaging in a discussion of religion or the Bible with a Catholic? Ask: “Are you interested in becoming a Catholic?”
If the answer is in the affirmative, push a little further and inquire whether or not they feel God may be calling them to leave the religion of the Jehovah’s Witnesses behind. If they are honest in their search for answers regarding the Catholic Church, then proceed to discuss things with them, but only with help from someone either associated with RCIA or other catechism programs, or who may be assigned by your parish priest to help specifically in such cases, or the priest themselves.
The reason for this is that dealing with a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses involves more than a good understanding of our faith, it also involves having knowledge of how to help a person from their particular type of church (known as an “authoritarian group”) properly heal psychologically as well. It will not be as easy as dealing with a Baptist or other type of Protestant. It is likely to be far more complex as the interested Jehovah’s Witness faces being cut off from all members of their family and even livelihood for even approaching a Catholic about the possibility of truly learning about the Church.
Don’t carry on such teaching over the Internet or any other means that the public can see because this will cause problems for the truly interested Jehovah’s Witness. Fellow members of their church are conisdered faithful if they spy on and report back to their church elders on any activity that is believed to be contrary to their faith.
Therefore no public Internet forum in which such a discussion as this is genuine on behalf of the Witness because they wouldn’t risk public exposure unless they were really trying to convert and tear us down.
If there is genuine interest, then what? This should only be handled privately, away from public Internet forums, person-to-person. Eventually the interested party will have to be lead into a formal catechesis program as well, like RCIA.
Does this sound like it is just an “either/or? situation, as if the only real discussion with a Witness will be one where he or she is putting their standing in their religion at risk to eventually become a Catholic. Strangely the answer is almost always “yes.” Why would I say this?
Most Jehovah’s Witness have a similar psychological profile in which for them to function as an individual they must compartmentalize all aspects of life. While a lot of times this is learned from being in the Watchtower religion, it is often something the person goes in and comes out with. Things in life are viewed in extremes, and only in extremes. Either something or someone is all good and all truthful or they are all bad and completely evil. Either they are in the one and only true religion (because to them it is impossible for more than one denomination to share the truth about God) or they are in the wrong one and serving Satan the Devil. There is no in-between.
While this might sound surprising to some here, even a fantasy, it is very true. Ask the Witness you are dealing with if he believes Catholics have a religion that gets its doctrines from God or from the Devil. Their answer will tell you a lot.
There is no benefit in discussing points like this to defend our religion before Jehovah’s Witnesses. They aren’t interested in our being able to do so successfully. Instead they are hoping they will be able to teach us and convert us from what they view is a religious system that Satan uses to blind people with. Such debates are hoped to be “conversation starters” or a foot-in-the-door so they can get you to start a weekly study of their doctrine from one of their publications, using the Bible as a book of proof texts to convert you to leave the Church. A faithful Jehovah’s Witness has no interest in Catholics being able to prove any point to them whatsoever.
If a Jehovah’s Witness is truly interested in Catholicism, the Internet is not the place for such a discussion and debate is not the means to deal with a complex situation. It will require help from your local parish community, much prayer, and all the assistance that can be gained from the Church at large.
Unfortunately, under normal circumstances we can never realisitically hope to convince a Witness who does not wish to risk walking outside of the parameters of their religion that their beliefs are not accurate. For the Witness believes that anything outside their religion is under the control of Satan.
So it is not only that do they not comprehend a lot of what we say (since they apply different definitions to the terms we might both share), they wouldn’t waste too much time trying to understand religion as we do. Would you try to understand something you knew was coming from demons? That is how they view our beliefs. Therefore such an interchange as we are discussing here is not the way to get anything across to one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
A faithful Jehovah’s Witness would never inquire what Catholics believe in order to genuinely learn from us. That would be an act of heresy to them. All “interest” is just a means to hopefully find a common ground on which the Witness can use as a platform to explain their beliefs and to try to teach us.
So before discussing doctrine, learn if the person is really interested in learning about being Catholic and possibly becoming one (at the risk of being what they call being “disfellowshipped”) or if this is just another one of their well-practiced means to get you to listen to one of the many presentations they are taught to offer to the public.
Ask why the Witness wants to share a thought from the Bible with you. Why are they engaging in a discussion of religion or the Bible with a Catholic? Ask: “Are you interested in becoming a Catholic?”
If the answer is in the affirmative, push a little further and inquire whether or not they feel God may be calling them to leave the religion of the Jehovah’s Witnesses behind. If they are honest in their search for answers regarding the Catholic Church, then proceed to discuss things with them, but only with help from someone either associated with RCIA or other catechism programs, or who may be assigned by your parish priest to help specifically in such cases, or the priest themselves.
The reason for this is that dealing with a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses involves more than a good understanding of our faith, it also involves having knowledge of how to help a person from their particular type of church (known as an “authoritarian group”) properly heal psychologically as well. It will not be as easy as dealing with a Baptist or other type of Protestant. It is likely to be far more complex as the interested Jehovah’s Witness faces being cut off from all members of their family and even livelihood for even approaching a Catholic about the possibility of truly learning about the Church.
Don’t carry on such teaching over the Internet or any other means that the public can see because this will cause problems for the truly interested Jehovah’s Witness. Fellow members of their church are conisdered faithful if they spy on and report back to their church elders on any activity that is believed to be contrary to their faith.
Therefore no public Internet forum in which such a discussion as this is genuine on behalf of the Witness because they wouldn’t risk public exposure unless they were really trying to convert and tear us down.
If there is genuine interest, then what? This should only be handled privately, away from public Internet forums, person-to-person. Eventually the interested party will have to be lead into a formal catechesis program as well, like RCIA.
Does this sound like it is just an “either/or? situation, as if the only real discussion with a Witness will be one where he or she is putting their standing in their religion at risk to eventually become a Catholic. Strangely the answer is almost always “yes.” Why would I say this?
Most Jehovah’s Witness have a similar psychological profile in which for them to function as an individual they must compartmentalize all aspects of life. While a lot of times this is learned from being in the Watchtower religion, it is often something the person goes in and comes out with. Things in life are viewed in extremes, and only in extremes. Either something or someone is all good and all truthful or they are all bad and completely evil. Either they are in the one and only true religion (because to them it is impossible for more than one denomination to share the truth about God) or they are in the wrong one and serving Satan the Devil. There is no in-between.
While this might sound surprising to some here, even a fantasy, it is very true. Ask the Witness you are dealing with if he believes Catholics have a religion that gets its doctrines from God or from the Devil. Their answer will tell you a lot.
There is no benefit in discussing points like this to defend our religion before Jehovah’s Witnesses. They aren’t interested in our being able to do so successfully. Instead they are hoping they will be able to teach us and convert us from what they view is a religious system that Satan uses to blind people with. Such debates are hoped to be “conversation starters” or a foot-in-the-door so they can get you to start a weekly study of their doctrine from one of their publications, using the Bible as a book of proof texts to convert you to leave the Church. A faithful Jehovah’s Witness has no interest in Catholics being able to prove any point to them whatsoever.
If a Jehovah’s Witness is truly interested in Catholicism, the Internet is not the place for such a discussion and debate is not the means to deal with a complex situation. It will require help from your local parish community, much prayer, and all the assistance that can be gained from the Church at large.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.