Saying God's instead of His

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I have sung professionally in an Episcopal church choir for about 20 years. I’ve seen a number of rectors come and go. The one we have now is absolutely pronoun-phobic. He will say “God” or “God’s” eight or ten times in a paragraph to avoid using the “He” pronoun. He sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Betsy
 
I hate it when people do this stuff. And they always seem to raise their voices when they change “His/Him” to “God”, don’t they? It is really irritating. I had a priest one time at a church some friends and I went to while on vacation who said, “Let us pray to God, who is both our Father and Mother…” :eek:

In Christ,
Rand
I raise my voice and say His/Him. I make it a point. And I’ve noticed other people doing the same thing. 🙂
 
I have sung professionally in an Episcopal church choir for about 20 years. I’ve seen a number of rectors come and go. The one we have now is absolutely pronoun-phobic. He will say “God” or “God’s” eight or ten times in a paragraph to avoid using the “He” pronoun. He sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Betsy
Ridiciulous is the right word. It’s a silly affectation. But this too will pass.
 
When I serve as a deacon at Mass for a priest who does such things, I just pray louder than he does (not on purpose. I have a louder voice) and I don’t think the congregation notices because none of them are using the genderless form – except the nun who’s in charge of the parish.
 
The parish I used to go to (18 years ago now) before I moved had a priest who was very pro-feminism who would say “in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier”.:eek:
I like that one – it’s theologically appropriate.
 
This Sunday is the 2nd Sunday in Ordinary time and the 2nd reading is from the 1st Letter to the Corinthians. A great theologian wrote a homily about this reading. It basically said that any time I change something it becomes my church. It is no longer the Church of Jesus Christ. The homily is printed as the epilogue to a book “Called to Communion” by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. I would advise everyone to read it and to quote it to everyone who desires to do what they choose.

Do not defend your faith, proclaim it.
 
I like that one – it’s theologically appropriate.
It is absolutely not theologically appropriate. It defines God only in relationship to us rather than in terms of his relationship/dynamic/ontology within himself. What was the Father before he created us, the Son before he redeemed us, the Holy Spirit before he sanctified us? At the very dawn of creation the Spirit hovered over the abyss (the Hebrew says Ruach Elohim – the Wind of God, not a mighty wind as some versions state) and the scriptures tell us (see John 1) of the Son/Word that all things were created through him. In other words, all three persons are Creator. I could go on but, please, don’t fall for this one.
 
It is absolutely not theologically appropriate. It defines God only in relationship to us rather than in terms of his relationship/dynamic/ontology within himself. What was the Father before he created us, the Son before he redeemed us, the Holy Spirit before he sanctified us? At the very dawn of creation the Spirit hovered over the abyss (the Hebrew says Ruach Elohim – the Wind of God, not a mighty wind as some versions state) and the scriptures tell us (see John 1) of the Son/Word that all things were created through him. In other words, all three persons are Creator. I could go on but, please, don’t fall for this one.
It absolutely is appropriate. To define God by a gender is merely to use one theological model out of a plurality of such models. God is as feminine as God is masculine!
 
It absolutely is appropriate. To define God by a gender is merely to use one theological model out of a plurality of such models. God is as feminine as God is masculine!
Allow me to throw this monkey wrench into your argument. Jesus refers to God as His Father, not as his mother. The Lord, Himself also refers to Himself as King, when he tells Samuel that it is He they reject as King (when Israel is pestering Samuel to ask God for an earthly king). Inasmuch as there are references to the Lord not forgetting Israel though a mother would forget her child, there are way too many references to God as King and as Lord, not Lady. Finally, Jesus taught us to pray, Our Father, not our mother. Enough said.
 
Allow me to throw this monkey wrench into your argument. Jesus refers to God as His Father, not as his mother. The Lord, Himself also refers to Himself as King, when he tells Samuel that it is He they reject as King (when Israel is pestering Samuel to ask God for an earthly king). Inasmuch as there are references to the Lord not forgetting Israel though a mother would forget her child, there are way too many references to God as King and as Lord, not Lady. Finally, Jesus taught us to pray, Our Father, not our mother. Enough said.
Poppycock! These models were articulated by people – including Jesus – living in a culture imbued with patriarchal imagery. Of course they would imagine God exclusively in masculine terms. Orthodox theology included other interesting alternative models, such as being suckled in faith by the breasts of the Holy Spirit.

I am not arguing against people referring to God as “father.” I am merely cautioning against a reactionary rejection of any other way of imagining God.

Petrus
 
Poppycock! These models were articulated by people – including Jesus – living in a culture imbued with patriarchal imagery. Of course they would imagine God exclusively in masculine terms. Orthodox theology included other interesting alternative models, such as being suckled in faith by the breasts of the Holy Spirit.

I am not arguing against people referring to God as “father.” I am merely cautioning against a reactionary rejection of any other way of imagining God.

Petrus
Are you then denying the very notion of the Trinity, composed of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit? Your comments appear to be in serious error and succomb to the unwise spirit of feminism that has crept into theology over the course of the last 40 years. No one would dare call Jesus’ calling God His Father the tem you just used. That is most insulting and shows a denial of the Fatherhood of God.

Inasmuch as you say that you are not arguing against people, including Jesus’, referrig to God as Father, your statements indicate the contrary. The sad part about it is that this goes against traditional understanding of God. Even St. Paul refers to God as Father of us all. And, Jesus says that we have one Father, God. Furthermore, if you read Luke’s genealogy of Jesus, Adam’s father is listed as God. And, the Lord, himself, refers to himself as David’s Father (for the sake of my son, David). The Bible is full of these references. To simply toss them aside as some anthropological reference is to ignore the rich biblical and theoligcal reference the word Father contains.
 
Poppycock! These models were articulated by people – including Jesus – living in a culture imbued with patriarchal imagery. Of course they would imagine God exclusively in masculine terms. Orthodox theology included other interesting alternative models, such as being suckled in faith by the breasts of the Holy Spirit.

I am not arguing against people referring to God as “father.” I am merely cautioning against a reactionary rejection of any other way of imagining God.

Petrus
You also forget one very important factor here: Jesus is not just another man who lived in a culture imbued with patriarchal imagery. He is God, Himself, and, as such, He taught us a prayer that He wished to have us use when praying to the First Person of the Trinity, the Father. So, if God, Himself is teaching us a Prayer that He wants us to use when addressing Him, I wouldn’t discount it as some cultural by-product. Remember, Jesus is God and Man. Furthermore, Jesus instructed his Apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. He was very precise in that form. What more proof do you want than that, since this came from God’s very own lips? As I said before Jesus is both God and Man.
 
As the first respondent suggested, I would say something. The natural progression of the feminist theology not only leads to abolition of masculinity in the church, but eventualy leads to abolition of Scriptural Authority. Really. Look at Virtue Online to see how Bible believing Bishops are being forced from the Episcopal Church because they won’t abandon Scriptural Truth. It all started 40 years ago with the same concerns which are the topic of this post and no one said anything. The RC Church is one of the last bastions of denominational steadfastness. Stand by it or watch it taken away. I’m serious, stand for it or lose it.

Peace,

Steve
 
The natural progression of the feminist theology not only leads to abolition of masculinity in the church, but eventualy leads to abolition of Scriptural Authority. Peace,
Steve
Nonsense. I’m not talking about some feminist theology, but about a mature Catholic theology that recognizes that the development of dogma has been conditioned by cultural constraints, including outdated gender constructs. “God as exclusively father is such a construct.” I’m talking about a mature theology that moves toward greater inclusiveness not less.
 
Nonsense. I’m not talking about some feminist theology, but about a mature Catholic theology that recognizes that the development of dogma has been conditioned by cultural constraints, including outdated gender constructs. “God as exclusively father is such a construct.” I’m talking about a mature theology that moves toward greater inclusiveness not less.
I’d like to see you respond to benedictgal. What is immature about abiding to the ecclesiastical and cultural norms that have informed the entire Judeo-Christian history?

Rather than trying to push a square post into a round hole (which I think your so-called ‘mature theology’ certainly is), why not ask why so many people are quick to be offended by things that never used to offend?

Let’s say a woman feels excluded from God because the ENTIRE WORLD refers to Him as Father, King, etc. Is the solution to rewrite history and our understanding of God, or is the solution to address this woman or anyone else, helping them to understand that *they *are the ones who lack maturity and education in their faith?

I can guess at your answers, but I don’t see how anyone could honestly disagree with this. The problem lies in the emergence of a class of people who refuse to acknowledge reality and find their place in it. Instead, they want to hammer it into what THEY prefer. I don’t get it. There are plenty of churches that will indulge any number of idiosyncrasies you want to entertain. Granted, they aren’t the true Church, but why quibble when you can have it ‘your way, right away’. My too-long experience with those who speak of ‘mature theology’ is that they often have no foundation in their faith, the lack of a sound educator along the way, and the prevailing thought that these fundamentals are old hat and not worth dwelling upon. But don’t worry, you can probably take your pick of any Jesuit university to run their theology department.

A woman was just ‘ordained’ in an ‘Independent’ (read=heretical) Catholic Church in Sacramento over the weekend. On the news, she remarked that this church “Was a good fit for [her].” Well put. Why try to make yourself fit into the Church? Find one that will fit your own perception of how things ought to be, then knock yourself out. Only don’t come crying when you realize your mutual appreciation society has no substance, no foundation, and no future.

Finally, you seem to be asserting that Jesus, Son (not Daughter) of God was more or less a victim of His times when He referred to God as His Father? Really? Tell me I read this wrong.
 
Our church changes the Gloria from “His” to “God”.

“Glory to God in the highest and peace to God’s [His] people on earth.”

When I am singing with the choir, I will occasionally try to slip the right word in. (I am so rebellious)

I really don’t care if hymns are changed though. But changing the Mass sections are ridiculous.
 
The sad part about it is that this goes against traditional understanding of God…The Bible is full of these references. To simply toss them aside as some anthropological reference is to ignore the rich biblical and theoligcal reference the word Father contains.
As I said in post#30, I am not arguing against people referring to God as “father.” I am merely cautioning against a reactionary rejection of any other way of imagining God, of ignoring the rich heritage of diverse cultural experiences of the divine.

You seem to want everyone to conform to only one way of imagining God, a God who, incidentally, probably has no male sex organ and no “Y” chromosome (unless you take the insemination by the Holy Spirit literally, in which case he indeed must have had a "Y"chromosome and some way of installing it!)
 
“Glory to God in the highest and peace to God’s [His] people on earth.” When I am singing with the choir, I will occasionally try to slip the right word in. (I am so rebellious). I really don’t care if hymns are changed though. But changing the Mass sections are ridiculous.
We have some people in our choir who say "God’s"and some who say “His” during the Gloria. Everyone gets along famously, and no one tries to force one view on the others;no one ridicules people who express it differently.
 
I’ve grown to accept the fact that inclusive language is used in NEW songs, but pleeeease leave the classics alone! I just refuse to sing the inclusive language versions. Not only that, but it sounds absolutely ridiculous when you just say “God God God” over and over again. There are some points where you really need to insert a pronoun. I’m just thinking of the song “God Has Chosen Me” in which the language would flow a lot better if a pronoun was used at some point.
 
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