Saying God's instead of His

[Sheeniac]

True, language should evolve organically, not be forced by fiat from above. And I hate inclusive renderings that butcher the language: at my university we do not allow, for example, “a person should follow their conscience.” I encourage either “people should follow their conscience,” or “a person should follow her [or his] conscience.”

From an evolutionary perspective, ‘a person should follow their conscience’ makes more sense than enforcing a rule of grammar that sounds too foreign to the average man on the street. Language evolves from usage, not from a book.

Inclusivity in language becomes second nature when one becomes used to it. Now it would be as absurd for me to relegate second-class citizenship to women as it would be to expect an African American to move to the back of the bus.

Sorry - as a woman I find that argument silly. Someone using chairman doesn’t make me feel like a second class citizen. Good heavens, if something like that makes me feel so threatened, how ever would I manage to get out of bed in the morning?

Such thinking reminds me of the debates on how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. The only thing that would make me feel like a second class citizen would be the establishment of women having to wear a burka in public. It seems our theologians , like other academics, fiddle while Rome burns.

Our Church is under constant attack both inside and out, by human and spiritual forces, our brothers and sisters in the faith don’t understand things such as Real Presence, the Church in China is producing martyrs, and we have people worrying about women feeling like second class citizens because the word ‘men’ is used?

 

[drpmjhess]

Our Church is under constant attack both inside and out, by human and spiritual forces:

There was a church in our diocese that didn’t clamp down harshly enough on the pronoun haters at Mass. You know how slippery that slope can be. Before long the local convent had invited everyone over for all-night orgies, the bishop had ordained women, and everyone switched allegiance to the Democratic Party! Terrible business, that. An act of divine vengeance destroyed their church building in the tornado of 2006, and everybody confessed their sins and reverted to saying “for us men and for our salvation.” Everyone is happy that episode is over. So beware, you liberal parishes…

 

[YACatholic]

Poppycock! These models were articulated by people – including Jesus – living in a culture imbued with patriarchal imagery. Of course they would imagine God exclusively in masculine terms. Orthodox theology included other interesting alternative models, such as being suckled in faith by the breasts of the Holy Spirit.

I am not arguing against people referring to God as “father.” I am merely cautioning against a reactionary rejection of any other way of imagining God.

Petrus

First off Jesus is not a person like everyone else. He was both fully human, and fully divine. Your principle inferred (Jesus was just putting it in a way they would understand and accept) does not stand up. It denies the divinity of Jesus (yes, it does). Jesus never held his tongue when it came to the truth. He welcomed public sinners (not acceptable in that time) and dined with them. He spoke out against divorce at a time when it was openly practiced and accepted (again, not something the public would easily accept)I have no problem with people having their own images of God.

(Not so sure you would disagree with the below section. The following is not a response to your post. Only to those who “demand” a gender-neutral Mass.)
However, when we are celebrating our faith as a community in Mass, we should follow what has ben laid out for us. My question to people in favor of gender-neutral language in the Mass is, "Would you change the words to ‘Our Parent’ who art in Heaven (hallowed be thy ambiguous pronoun)? Jesus told us to pray and call God our Father (who I acknowledge has no gender). To suggest that we should do anything different is disagreeing with Jesus. That’s not something I am willing to do. It’s biblical, the Church commands it, it’s good enough for me.

 

[YACatholic]

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

becomes

Our Parent who art in heaven, hallowed be thy ambiguous name.

Those who are looking to change the Mass to be gender-neutral, please see it for what it is. A misguided attempt to right perceived wrongs. We are praying the way Jesus did, in his image. What can possibly be wrong with that? I will submit to the Holy Father. I understand that if I disagree with something within the Church, it is something the Pope agrees with. And I recognize that he is far more qualified to lead than I. Take time to figure out what the real issue is behind the change you want to see and take issue on that. The language in the Mass is not the issue you hold.

If you do support gender-neutral language in the Mass, what is the reason behind it?

Comments and response welcome.

Praying for all of us. God Bless you.

YACatholic

 

[drpmjhess]

My question to people in favor of gender-neutral language in the Mass is, "Would you change the words to ‘Our Parent’ who art in Heaven (hallowed be thy ambiguous pronoun)?

Yes, that would be silly.

 

[benedictgal]

Yes, that would be silly.

It is indeed silly, but, this is precisely what you appear to advocate when you see nothing wrong with changing a pronoun here or there just to satisfy some feminist agenda. You can’t have it both ways. This isn’t even Burger King where you can have it your way.

The Mass is not someone’s private property where they can change things as they please. It belongs to the Church.

 

[drpmjhess]

The Mass is not someone’s private property where they can change things as they please. It belongs to the Church.

[Edited by Moderator]

To go back to the original post, if peoples’ whispering “God” in stead of “Him” beneath their breath is so heinous that it distracts you from your prayer during the liturgy, find a different pew, or a different church, or an understanding confessor. Better yet, direct all that energy you focus on the pronoun-challenged to constructive projects like working for life, or feeding the poor, or educating for social justice. My lovely, vibrant parish is so busy in all these areas – in addition to praying in beautiful liturgies – that we wouldn’t have time to recruit prosecutors for your type of heresy repression campaign even if anyone were so inclined!

 

[benedictgal]

[Edited by Moderator]

To go back to the original post, if peoples’ whispering “God” in stead of “Him” beneath their breath is so heinous that it distracts you from your prayer during the liturgy, find a different pew, or a different church, or an understanding confessor. Better yet, direct all that energy you focus on the pronoun-challenged to constructive projects like working for life, or feeding the poor, or educating for social justice. My lovely, vibrant parish is so busy in all these areas – in addition to praying in beautiful liturgies – that we wouldn’t have time to recruit prosecutors for your type of heresy repression campaign even if anyone were so inclined!

[Edited by Moderator]

Vibrant parishes are not the ones that take it upon themselves to tinker with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. They follow the rubrics and norms of what the Church prescribes for the Sacred liturgy.

 

[drpmjhess]

Vibrant parishes are not the ones that take it upon themselves to tinker with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. They follow the rubrics and norms of what the Church prescribes for the Sacred liturgy.

Our parish is vibrant, growing, liturgically alive, filled with young people and great priests, socially conscious, and theologically aware. The fact that some of its members quietly and respectfully – without dreaming of shouting down their pew-mates – omit the word “men” from “for us and for our salvation” is irrelevant. Anyone who sees the vibrancy and Catholicity of a parish as hanging upon a pronoun is troubled indeed, and this does hot bode well for the future of our Church. If concern about a pronoun has become such an overwhelming factor in your spirituality, I shall pray for you.

 

[benedictgal]

Our parish is vibrant, growing, liturgically alive, filled with young people and great priests, socially conscious, and theologically aware. The fact that some of its members quietly and respectfully – without dreaming of shouting down their pew-mates – omit the word “men” from “for us and for our salvation” is irrelevant. Anyone who sees the vibrancy and Catholicity of a parish as hanging upon a pronoun is troubled indeed, and this does hot bode well for the future of our Church. If concern about a pronoun has become such an overwhelming factor in your spirituality, I shall pray for you.

So far, all we’ve read from you is rhetoric and nothing substantive on the issue at hand. You have not presented one bona fide source to back any of your claims. You’ve not quoted the Church Fathers or even Church documents to support your assertions.

Perhaps you have missed the point of the OP. The problem lies with the fact that there are those who follow a particular agenda who take it upon themselves to impose their personal tastes, viewpoints and idiosyncracies into the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Some may do so with something as innocuous as a pronoun, while others will be more direct in their sabotage.

The heart of the matter, which you, as yet do not see because you have been leveling criticism and rhetoric, is that no one has the right to tinker with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Holy See has spoken rather clearly about this. Being theologically aware doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re doing the right thing. Satan was biblically aware when he started spewing out scripture at Jesus. The demons were certainly theologically aware when they recognized Jesus each time He was casting them out. Awareness is one thing; believing and doing things correctly are an entirely different matter.

It is sad that some of the biggest dissenters in the Church are the ones who hold doctorates and claim to know more than the Holy Father (who, is a theological force to be reckoned with and is one of the most brilliant ecclesiastical minds alive today). Unfortunately, for them, pride gets in the way. They forget that it was the pride of wanting to be like God that got Adam and Eve in trouble in the first place.

 

[ac_claire]

Doubtless in the fourteenth century you would have been the parishioner zealously touching off the faggots stacked around the poor heretics about to be burned!

To go back to the original post, if peoples’ whispering “God” in stead of “Him” beneath their breath is so heinous that it distracts you from your prayer during the liturgy, find a different pew, or a different church, or an understanding confessor. Better yet, direct all that energy you focus on the pronoun-challenged to constructive projects like working for life, or feeding the poor, or educating for social justice. My lovely, vibrant parish is so busy in all these areas – in addition to praying in beautiful liturgies – that we wouldn’t have time to recruit prosecutors for your type of heresy repression campaign even if anyone were so inclined!

Why do you do this? In post after post…
You’ve lectured the rest of us on charity a few times already on this thread. Your sense of propriety (or sense of humor or whatever you want to call it) is really perplexing.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.