Saying grace?

[Kuzushi]

People say grace before dining to give thanks. Normally when we thank someone we believe they are responsible for bestowing a specific gift, blessing or kindness upon us. If God is indeed responsible for providing the food we eat is he also responsible through act or omission for the horrible and slow starvation death of millions of people throughout the ages due to famine?

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Does anyone need to die of a famine? Is there enough food for all and some people refuse to share or are famines just naturally occurring events with no responsibility of humans? Amartya Sen, Noble Prize Winning Economist, wrote a paper showing that democracies don’t have famines. I don’t know the answers to your questions but I pray that Christ, Mary, and St. Joseph will enlighten our hearts!!

 

[Shin]

The Lord has sentenced all men to die by a variety of deaths. Some at the hands of sinful men through their actions, other times through their omissions, other times through nature, other times. .

In all cases those who die in the Lord are in His hands, and treasure the sufferings they were able to bear for His sake, their place in Heaven is higher and their time in Purgatory shorter for all they bore.

Those who die outside of His grace, suffer less in Hell for all the sufferings they bear in this life.

 

[Trishie]

When people suffer famine it is often as a consquence of mismanagement of natural resources, or others’ greed as in plundering African resources, or the malicious acts of leaders, such as occurred in Russia, China, Cambodia etc last century. It is also caused by disregard of the planet, and human engineered climatic changes that have disturbed world weather patterns.
A great deal of human suffering is caused by other human beings’ selfishness, or individuals’ choices, or diet, or lifestyle.
We cannot blame God for most of the suffering in the world, but the fault more often than not lies with ourselves or with other people.

 

[Kuzushi]

I have read all your posts and the general theme is that we are all going to die anyway so things like plagues and famine really do not matter. So why do any of you say grace and thank God for the food on your tables? God does not seem to have anything to do with it either way. This is the thing I just do not get. When good things happen to people they thank the lord, but when something bad happens they say it was the fault of man’s cruelty or a freak of nature etc. One of the above posters seemed to be blaming the people who are the victims of famine. I actually like this argument because I think people’s own stupidity gets them into trouble quite often. This is why I have always wondered why the Bible never praises intelligence….but that is for another post.

I am sure many of the Irish Catholics who perished in the potato famine thanked God for food in the good times, and most continued to pray for mercy when the potatoes stopped coming. All that praying did not help their terrible situation. I would just like to see consistency. Don’t thank God for good things and don’t blame him when things go bad. He is not involved in the affairs of men either way. We are on our own.

 

[Neithan]

I am sure many of the Irish Catholics who perished in the potato famine thanked God for food in the good times, and most continued to pray for mercy when the potatoes stopped coming. All that praying did not help their terrible situation. I would just like to see consistency. Don’t thank God for good things and don’t blame him when things go bad. He is not involved in the affairs of men either way. We are on our own.

Sounds like someone on their way to atheism! Or maybe already there but hasn’t fully accepted it yet. Careful with that kind of reasoning. I will pray for your faith.

Everything we have, our very existence, is given from and sustained by God, so it is always right to give Him thanks and praise.

Our suffering is due to sin, either the fact of Original Sin which, though its stain (viz. the lack of grace) can be cleansed in our souls via Baptism, cannot be undone in its material effects, or the malice of other people. The Fall corrupted nature and humanity.

So we thank God for our blessings, such as food, and we pray for mercy when we suffer, such as in famine.

The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the Famine.

 

[Scottgun]

Until I can create pop tarts *ex nihilo, *I will continue to give thanks to the Almighty.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

I have read all your posts and the general theme is that we are all going to die anyway so things like plagues and famine really do not matter.

Yes, true. Also, humans and demons are responsible for all of the suffering in the world, including famines, so it makes sense to blame them instead of God. Eve chose to eat the fruit from the Tree of Good and Evil. She knows more than God. God doesn’t know evil.

So why do any of you say grace and thank God for the food on your tables?

I do it because I am grateful for all that God has given me.

God does not seem to have anything to do with it either way.

How do you know that God has nothing to do with it? Do you also believe that the devil has nothing to do with it? Do you believe that the devil doesn’t exist?

This is the thing I just do not get. When good things happen to people they thank the lord, but when something bad happens they say it was the fault of man’s cruelty or a freak of nature etc. One of the above posters seemed to be blaming the people who are the victims of famine. I actually like this argument because I think people’s own stupidity gets them into trouble quite often.

That’s the way it is though. Everything good is from the Lord. Everything bad is from the evil one. This life is spiritual warfare. There are demons as well as angels.

This is why I have always wondered why the Bible never praises intelligence….but that is for another post.

The Bible does praise intelligence. Remember, Solomon asked for wisdom and that was considered the best gift that he could ask for, better than power or money, etc.

I am sure many of the Irish Catholics who perished in the potato famine thanked God for food in the good times, and most continued to pray for mercy when the potatoes stopped coming. All that praying did not help their terrible situation. I would just like to see consistency. Don’t thank God for good things and don’t blame him when things go bad. He is not involved in the affairs of men either way. We are on our own.

Let’s look at the book of Job. Job endured extreme suffering, caused by the devil while God looked on. Only when Job begged to God for mercy, did God stop the devil from punishing Job. However, almost all of Job’s family died even though Job did not. The Bible promises that the prayers of a righteous man avail much. If you not only pray, but totally surrender yourself to Christ, you may notice the hand of God in your life more than you do now. In the book of Job, it seems that it was better that Job pray than that he didn’t pray. If you don’t pray, how can you expect anyone to help? But if you do pray, at least you increase your chances as well as increase your merit because you are more deserving of help now that you have humbled yourself by praying. If you read The Secret of the Rosary, a Queen wanted a son and she prayed the Rosary for a year as well as told all her subjects to pray for a year (at least - might have been more than a year, actually). A boy was born and died. She didn’t give up, she and her subejcts stormed heaven even harder. This time a healthy son was born. Merit is also increased by prayer.

Take Bathsheba and David. Bathsheba bore a son through her out of wedlock affair with David that resulted in her poor husband being murdered. Nathan told David that God had ordained that the son would die. David prayed, mortified himself, fasted to ask God for mercy. The son died anyways. After the son died, he got up and went about his way. He said that while the boy was alive he thought he had a chance but when the boy was dead, he no longer did. God answers every prayer in his own way, but it certainly can’t hurt to pray and often helps.

May Christ, Mary, and Joseph bless you and increase your faith!

 

[Kuzushi]

Sounds like someone on their way to atheism! Or maybe already there but hasn’t fully accepted it yet. Careful with that kind of reasoning. I will pray for your faith.

I just think things should be consistent and logical.

Everything we have, our very existence, is given from and sustained by God, so it is always right to give Him thanks and praise.

An argument could be made that he put these things in motion, but if the farmer, the train company, the trucker, and finally the grocer did not do their job God would stand by as you and your family slowly starved to death. It has happened throughout history. We in the US have it so easy we take this for granted. If you want to thank anyone thank our military and our capitalist system for keeping us safe and prosperous. Give credit where credit is due and be consistent.

I think God gets WAY more credit for things he had nothing to do with in this country.

 

[LilyM]

I just think things should be consistent and logical.

An argument could be made that he put these things in motion, but if the farmer, the train company, the trucker, and finally the grocer did not do their job God would stand by as you and your family slowly starved to death. It has happened throughout history. We in the US have it so easy we take this for granted. If you want to thank anyone thank our military and our capitalist system for keeping us safe and prosperous. Give credit where credit is due and be consistent.

I think God gets WAY more credit for things he had nothing to do with in this country.

A gift is a gift, and always deserves thanks.

My boss may give me an undeserved bonus which she denies to my co-workers. Being a magnanimous gesture on her part, it deserves thanks, and of course I’m going to thank her for it.

If I feel my co-workers ALSO need or deserve bonuses, in addition to thanking my boss for the favour done to me, I’m ALSO going to ask her to consider giving bonuses to my co-workers. Of course she is not obliged to give them any bonuses, or anything over and above their normal pay, so if she refuses it doesn’t make her a meanie, just makes her extraordinarily generous to me!

And that’s what we do vis a vis God - we thank Him for the food He gives us, and pray Him to give food to all who are in need of it.

 

[Kuzushi]

Also, humans and demons are responsible for all of the suffering in the world, including famines, so it makes sense to blame them instead of God.

Demons? I don’t know about that. Is that what the church teaches? Why would God allow supernatural beings to reek havoc?

Again, you are not being consistent. If you thank God for food on the table you have to blame him for no food. How can you logically have it both ways? As I said to Neithan: if the farmer, the train company, the trucker, and finally the grocer did not do their job God would stand by as you and your family slowly starved to death.

That's the way it is though.  Everything good is from the Lord.  Everything bad is from the evil one.  This life is spiritual warfare.  There are demons as well as angels.

So God created the angels and now he is letting these supernatural beings with magnificent powers bully us by spreading famine and plagues? With all do respect that sounds ridiculous to me. If my bad dog bites you on the sidewalk whose fault is it? It is MINE because it is MY dog.

The Bible does praise intelligence.  :confused: :shrug: Remember, Solomon asked for wisdom

Wisdom is good, but it is different from intelligence.

 

[Kuzushi]

A gift is a gift, and always deserves thanks.

My boss may give me an undeserved bonus which she denies to my co-workers.

Sure, but thank the one responsible; the farmer, the train company, the trucker, the grocer, etc. What did God have to do with this chain?

 

[LilyM]

Sure, but thank the one responsible; the farmer, the train company, the trucker, the grocer, etc. What did God have to do with this chain?

Who says we don’t, where we can? Many times we can’t even find out who most of the people in the food chain are! Certainly I’ll thank the chef who cooked the meal, the waiter who served it and so on. And yes, thanks to the cashier (who is the only person I get to meet at the store) and so on.

But whichever person we thank didn’t create the rain or the sun or the soil - without THEM our food can’t grow. Those come from God.

 

[Neithan]

An argument could be made that he put these things in motion, but if the farmer, the train company, the trucker, and finally the grocer did not do their job God would stand by as you and your family slowly starved to death. It has happened throughout history. We in the US have it so easy we take this for granted. If you want to thank anyone thank our military and our capitalist system for keeping us safe and prosperous. Give credit where credit is due and be consistent.

I think God gets WAY more credit for things he had nothing to do with in this country.

Why not thank God for the farmer, the train company, the trucker and the grocer. As well as those men and women who serve in the military, and the prosperity of our society. (If, however, you’ve paid attention to the news lately, there isn’t much room for thanks for “our capitalist system.”)

Thank the people that help you and thank God for making those people who and what they are. Pray for blessings on those people as well, repay them materially and spiritually. There is something severely deficient in your metaphysical reasoning if you think it is possible that God, the Creator, “gets WAY more credit for things he had nothing do with in this country.” Any ‘credit’ in existence at all must be given ultimately to God.

 

[lizaanne]

Sure, but thank the one responsible; the farmer, the train company, the trucker, the grocer, etc. What did God have to do with this chain?

Bless us O Lord, and these, Thy gifts, which we are about to receive, from Thy bounty, through Christ our Lord.
Amen

Don’t you think that bounty includes everything it took to get it on the table, back to the bees that may have pollinated the plants, or the grass that fed the livestock?

Why does everything always have to be so spelled out for some folks?

~Liza

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Demons? I don’t know about that. Is that what the church teaches? Why would God allow supernatural beings to reek havoc?

Yes, that is what the Church teaches if I am understanding your question correctly. For the same reason he allows humans to reek havoc, free will! I think about 2/3rds of the angels are heavenly, and 1/3rds are reeking havoc under the direction of Satan and are destined for hell.

Again, you are not being consistent. If you thank God for food on the table you have to blame him for no food. How can you logically have it both ways? As I said to Neithan: if the farmer, the train company, the trucker, and finally the grocer did not do their job God would stand by as you and your family slowly starved to death.

That is what happened in Job! God stood by while Satan killed his family, his lands, and gave him awful sores. Finally, Job petitioned and begged God. God stopped Satan from doing all that evil to him. Sometimes God doesn’t stop Satan but I’m sure that asking him to help probably cannot hurt even if obvious help is not always given.

So God created the angels and now he is letting these supernatural beings with magnificent powers bully us by spreading famine and plagues? With all do respect that sounds ridiculous to me. If my bad dog bites you on the sidewalk whose fault is it? It is MINE because it is MY dog.

Yes! God does it because this life on earth is a pilgramage, it’s not supposed to be easy. It’s a punishment for Eve and Adam eating the fruit in the Garden of Eden. Original sin. We have the opportunity to earn merit, endurance and love of God despite extreme suffering. This gives us a higher place in Heaven and allows us to begin experiencing Heaven on Earth. Later, we become part of God in perfect union with him if our merit is enough, and we become saints with power to help others when petitioned to.

Wisdom is good, but it is different from intelligence.

You’re right. The Bible doesn’t really value intelligence in and of itself. I don’t either. Sometimes intelligence is a downfall; intelligence is inferior to moral character. Satan was the most intelligent of the angels. However, intelligence in the hands of a person working for Christ is a supreme blessing. Intelligence in the hands of evil-doers may have caused the Holocaust, Communism, famines, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Highwayhound]

People say grace before dining to give thanks. Normally when we thank someone we believe they are responsible for bestowing a specific gift, blessing or kindness upon us. If God is indeed responsible for providing the food we eat is he also responsible through act or omission for the horrible and slow starvation death of millions of people throughout the ages due to famine?

One can look at the act of saying grace as you propose or one can see the offering of a prayer of grace as an act of humility. Humility is a virtue and the opposing sin to humility is pride. By praying grace a person is exercising humility in both thought and word. Leading a virtuous life is pleasing to God.

God bless

p.s. in a couple of posts the verb ‘reek’ has been used in the place of ‘wreak’. Reek means to smell bad whereas ‘wreak’ is used when ‘wreaking havoc’.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Mother Teresa, “The fruit of abortion is nuclear war. What we do to the unborn child, we do to Jesus.”

**Question to you Kuzuchi: ** If we enter into nuclear war, will you blame it on God or on humans and the devil?

 

[Kuzushi]

But whichever person we thank didn’t create the rain or the sun or the soil - without THEM our food can’t grow. Those come from God.

Okay, that is a good answer. It does seem like you are going pretty far back on the chain to the beginning of creation though. However, this goes back to what I have said much earlier in another post. It seems to me that God put his hand on the world, set it to spinning and then said “okay you people are on your own, good luck.”

That sun and soil you mention does not always produce crops and people then starve. I guess it would be more logical for you to say once to God; “thanks for the earth I live on,” and leave it at that. I just don’t see any reason to continue to thank him at every meal. That is giving him more credit than is necessary.

 

[Kuzushi]

Why not thank God for the farmer, the train company, the trucker and the grocer.

I concede this point, but then those people have free will and it is only through their efforts at their respective careers that any of this occurs. You all ignore my point that if the above people did not do their jobs God would watch as you and your family starve.

There is something severely deficient in your metaphysical reasoning if you think it is possible that God, the Creator, “gets WAY more credit for things he had nothing do with in this country.”

Why? If he gets the credit for a bounty of food on the table isn’t it logical that he gets the blame for times when he “withdraws” food? Why do you insist it is a unilateral arrangement?

(If, however, you’ve paid attention to the news lately, there isn’t much room for thanks for “our capitalist system.”)

This is beside my point, but I will point out that the door to the US is open. You can leave and go to any other country you want. Do you think things are better in China? Even they continue to invest here.