Saying grace?

[Kuzushi]

Don’t you think that bounty includes everything it took to get it on the table, back to the bees that may have pollinated the plants

It has been in the news that the bees are dying off. Could we be headed for a famine here too? I wonder how many of you will be “giving thanks” and “praising God” if the grocery shelves are empty. It is SO easy for us fat Americans to thank God when eating is as easy as a couple mile drive and a swipe of our credit card.

 

[Kuzushi]

I think about 2/3rds of the angels are heavenly, and 1/3rds are reeking havoc under the direction of Satan and are destined for hell.

Ronald Reagan said in a speech something to the effect that it is not so much that people are ignorant, but rather that so many people know so many things that are not so. You are simply making your religion up as you go along and creating some kind of Catholic sub-set. There is absolutely no way you could know if your statement is true, so I am inclined not to take anything you say very seriously.

That is what happened in Job!

Yes, I know the story, but in that case the devil specifically received permission from God to do that. Job is merely an analogous lesson that did not necessarily really happen. This story is not meant to be taken as a blueprint for how God does things. If God really let the devil have his way he would send a wave of incubuses and other horrible creatures to rape and pillage. Think about it.

You’re right. The Bible doesn’t really value intelligence in and of itself. I don’t either.

Yeah…I know.

 

[Kuzushi]

One can look at the act of saying grace as you propose or one can see the offering of a prayer of grace as an act of humility.

I don’t see the connection. If you want to become humble there are better ways. In the interest of logic and consistency I still do not see why people thank someone who is only indirectly involved at best.

p.s. in a couple of posts the verb ‘reek’ has been used in the place of ‘wreak’. Reek means to smell bad whereas ‘wreak’ is used when ‘wreaking havoc’.

Yep, you are right. Thanks for the catch. Now if I can only remember that tomorrow.

 

[lizaanne]

It has been in the news that the bees are dying off. Could we be headed for a famine here too? I wonder how many of you will be “giving thanks” and “praising God” if the grocery shelves are empty. It is SO easy for us fat Americans to thank God when eating is as easy as a couple mile drive and a swipe of our credit card.

You sound like a very cynical and angry person with a sky is falling attitude. I just don’t think you are going to be happy unless we tell you, yep, you are right, we all just don’t know what we are doing when we give thanks.

Well, probably not, I’m sure there is always something else to find fault with.

If the bees die, then God will figure something out. If we all starve to death, then that was meant to be our fate.

You list yourself as Catholic, but you don’t seem to have much faith.

~Liza

 

[Kuzushi]

You sound like a very cynical and angry person with a sky is falling attitude…… You list yourself as Catholic, but you don’t seem to have much faith.

If my posts annoy or disturb you please feel free not to read or post here.

If the bees die, then God will figure something out.

God will figure it out? It will be a human scientist who comes up with a solution if there is any.

If we all starve to death, then that was meant to be our fate.

Who has a sky is falling attitude? You exemplify the roll over and give up attitude of many Christians who think anything that happens must be God’s will. If our engineers and scientist had your attitude we would still be in the stone age.

 

[lizaanne]

If my posts annoy or disturb you please feel free not to read or post here.

What makes you think I’m disturbed or annoyed? It was simply an observation.

God will figure it out? It will be a human scientist who comes up with a solution if there is any.

And where did that scientist get their intellect? And don’t tell me self study and learning.

Who has a sky is falling attitude? You exemplify the roll over and give up attitude of many Christians who think anything that happens must be God’s will. If our engineers and scientist had your attitude we would still be in the stone age.

Oh hardly. I’m a fighter if ever there was one. My point is that we all die eventually - no amount of science is going to change that.

I guess we just can’t say anything here to satisfy you. But I do suggest that you investigate your Catholic Faith a little more closely. You are filled with heresy and it’s not going to serve you well if you continue.

~Liza

 

[Kuzushi]

And where did that scientist get their intellect? And don’t tell me self study and learning.

Well if they did not study and learn where would they or we be? This is my main point. People thank God for food, for getting a job, financial relief, curing cancer, finding lost keys, etc. but ANY intervention by God to help humans, by definition, MUST be a miracle. God does not just zap the food on you r plate.

A farmer plants a seed, the seed germinates when soil and water are added, the plant grows and the farmer harvest it. The trucker takes it to the train……and so on. We know and understand this. God may have initially created the growing part of this system, but he has nothing to do with it now. He also does not bring people money, find them jobs, cure their cancer, or find lost keys.

You are filled with heresy and it’s not going to serve you well if you continue.

I am merely point out inconsistencies in people’s logic. No one has explained to me why it is that God gets all the praise for food on the table, but none of the blame for those who starved from famine, pestilence, etc. History is full of this. Look at the plight of the Irish Catholics in the potato famine. You had entire families starving and there was even cannibalization out of sheer desperation.

Today you go to the grocery store and buy just about anything you want. You then serve it up to your family while they all happily join hands and thank God in prayer. We don’t even think about it anymore. What would happen some day when either that food is no longer in the store or you can no longer afford it? What is God going to do? The answer is he will do nothing, and you and your family will starve. My point is that God has NOTHING to do with putting food on your table when times are good like now, and he would not be at fault in bad times either.

My position is logical while yours is bizarrely unilateral.

But I do suggest that you investigate your Catholic Faith a little more closely.

I am a cradle Catholic with 12 years of Catholic schooling. I was an alter boy, lectern, usher, Eucharistic minister, and I entered the Knights of Columbus. I have done countless hours of reading on Catholicism.

 

[LilyM]

God may have initially created the growing part of this system, but he has nothing to do with it now. He also does not bring people money, find them jobs, cure their cancer, or find lost keys.

What, you think He only needed to make it rain once on the first day of creation? Sorry, the weather is a constant thing, rain a constant need. Without rain, no food. Without God’s constant provision of rain, no food. Ergo He is continually acting.

By the way - if He creates things and forgets about them, why did He create US and NOT leave us to wallow in our sins? How is it that He REPEATEDLY intervened during human history, through the prophets and ultimately through the life and death of Jesus, in order to bring about our salvation and keep us on the straight and narrow?

I am merely point out inconsistencies in people’s logic. No one has explained to me why it is that God gets all the praise for food on the table, but none of the blame for those who starved from famine, pestilence, etc. History is full of this. Look at the plight of the Irish Catholics in the potato famine. You had entire families starving and there was even cannibalization out of sheer desperation.

Your logic is the most inconsistent of all. How are the millions of people who pray to Him at every moment of every day to relieve famine, sickness or pestilence NOT acknowledging His role in those things? Whether His will is to grant their prayer or not, by praying to Him they show their belief that it all, joy as well as suffering, utimately comes from Him.

Today you go to the grocery store and buy just about anything you want. You then serve it up to your family while they all happily join hands and thank God in prayer. We don’t even think about it anymore. What would happen some day when either that food is no longer in the store or you can no longer afford it? What is God going to do? The answer is he will do nothing, and you and your family will starve. My point is that God has NOTHING to do with putting food on your table when times are good like now, and he would not be at fault in bad times either.

I HAVE prayed when I have been sick and in need - and guess what, I’ve gotten better. I HAVE received help to keep food on the table. I wouldn’t be here to tell the tale if not.

I am a cradle Catholic with 12 years of Catholic schooling. I was an alter boy, lectern, usher, Eucharistic minister, and I entered the Knights of Columbus. I have done countless hours of reading on Catholicism.

Can’t have read very well then, if you believe that your position is in any way compatible with Catholicism. We believe in a God who acts - in salvation history, with daily miracles and healings, and all sorts of other ways.

In short, as scripture says, in a God who gives and a God who takes away - but never in a God who does nothing.

 

[Shin]

“It is one of the most firmly established and most consoling of the truths that have been revealed to us that (apart from sin) nothing happens to us in life unless God wills it so. Wealth and poverty alike come from Him. If we fall ill, God is the cause of our illness; if we get well, our recovery is due to God. We owe our lives entirely to Him, and when death comes to put an end to life, His will be the hand that deals the blow.”

St. Claude de la Columbiere

All things in Heaven and Earth happen by God’s Will. They can occur due to His direct Will or His permissive Will. In all cases they are ordered for the best for mankind.

All acts of true spiritual goodness and virtue which humans are capable of, are sourced in God’s grace, without which they cannot and do not occur. All natural actions also are only enabled by God.

Therefor you should give thanks to God for everything that comes, all good – and as can be seen, all evils save sin. Every natural evil or ‘suffering’ one must give thanks for as well as for the good harvests.

One should thank God for food and for the lack of food, for sun and for rain, for health and for sickness, for life and for death.

Everything man does, whether farming or not, sitting still or not, sinning or not, is done due to God’s gifts and under the Hand of Providence. But for Him, no one could lift a single stone, walk a single step, take a single breath, think a single thought. Man possesses no single thing that is completely his own but his will, which still in and of itself in its very existence and its ability to act relies upon God – its very freedom to act and ownership to the man is a sustained gift.

In the interior mind and intellect of man, all the faculties of His soul, God is at work though the blind cannot see His very hand in their own hearts and thoughts, do not listen to the quiet voice within their soul, do not attribute their inspirations to any other source than their blind selves.

All things on earth whether good or evil, sinful or virtuous, come into being through the guidance and Providence of God, who both by balancing the scales of His Justice and the gifts He has given men and His natural ordering of the world, determines the course of events.

Whether it is famine, torture, bountiful harvests, marriages, death, life, His Providence guides all. When sin occurs, He does not cause the sin, but He orders all the man’s life and actions surrounding it for the best, making the best of even the worst and most evil choices of men in the long run, though in the short they be not yet balanced out by punishment or redemption or else and cause grievous harm.

At the end of a man’s life, all wounds are healed, or all last forever in Hell – so all that happens here, is like dust in the wind save it be done for the glory of God.

This is the authoritative teaching of the Church, not some mere deduction made by people philosophizing or wondering. God’s Providence guides all. God delivers good and evil to His people.

The inner workings of how God determines to influence each action, and weighs good and evil, the natural laws He has created, and so forth will never be fully understood in this life – Who can understand God? But they are absolutely for the best, because God is God. And His hand and influence on every person’s life is closer, firmer, and surer than any person knows. So too the influences of evil He allows to test mankind, determining each man’s soul’s destinations by the interior choices to obey the promptings of grace or of sin.

All men are born in original sin if one needs further understanding of why the world is a difficult place. Men live together in sin as well as grace in this earth.

All true harm only results from this separation from God, no harm can come to the united with God, which all are made for.

We are always to be thankful to God for every single thing, and to never cease in thanksgiving. To cease. . is to not understand the goodness of the gifts given, the glory of His gifts of life – which is a failing, not a truth.

I pray those with humility understand and accept this teaching as in fact we have no choice but to.

'Even if the Holy Spirit had not called blessed those who suffer, if every page of Scripture did not proclaim aloud the necessity of adversity, if we did not see that suffering is the normal destiny of those who are friends of God, we should still be convinced that it is of untold advantage to us. It is enough to know that the God who chose to suffer all the most horrible tortures the rage of man can invent rather then see us condemned to the slightest pain in the next life is the same God who prepares and offers us the chalice of bitterness we must drink in this world. A God who has so suffered to prevent us from suffering would not make us suffer today to give Himself cruel and pointless pleasure.

When I see a Christian grief-stricken at the trials God sends him I say to myself: Here is a man who is grieved at his own happiness. He is asking God to be delivered from something he ought to be thanking Him for. I am quite sure that nothing more advantageous could happen to him than what causes him so much grief. I have a hundred unanswerable reasons for saying so. But if I could read into the future and see the happy outcome of his present misfortune, how greatly strengthened I would be in my judgment! If we could discover the designs of Providence it is certain we would ardently long for the evils we are now so unwilling to suffer. We would rush forward to accept them with the utmost gratitude if we had a little faith and realized how much God loves us and has our interests at heart.’

St. Claude de la Columbiere

 

[Shin]

Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence

Read it. Buy it. Live it.

And love it.

The book says it better than I can.

 

[pnewton]

I have read all your posts and the general theme is that we are all going to die anyway so things like plagues and famine really do not matter. …Don’t thank God for good things and don’t blame him when things go bad. He is not involved in the affairs of men either way. We are on our own.

You do not understand because this thread, title not withstanding, is not about saying grace. You start out with the assumption that there is not God, or at least one involved in our affairs, and see an inconsistency. The real question here is a much broader and older question of why is there evil in the world if there is a God? It is the best and oldest arguement against the existence of God. This does not mean it is withour answer.

First, if the existence of evil can prove God does not exist, then the existence of good should prove his existence. Yet both exist. The reason is that such simplistic reasoning isn’t valid. God could exist, be all good and all powerful and still allow evil to exist, even though he is not the root cause. Evil is nothing more than the absence of God’s grace.

So we have children starving because God has not provided that they have food. Why? Well, to begin with, in the begining, God did provide all with food. When sin entered the world, man was allowed to harm himself and others, effectively cutting off the grace of God to a portion of people. God did not have to allow us the freedom of choice that leads to the harm of ourselves and the innocent. He could have made a universe of automatons. It was His choice not to, but rather have beings capable of loving or rejecting Him.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Ronald Reagan said in a speech something to the effect that it is not so much that people are ignorant, but rather that so many people know so many things that are not so. You are simply making your religion up as you go along and creating some kind of Catholic sub-set. There is absolutely no way you could know if your statement is true, so I am inclined not to take anything you say very seriously.

I am taking my statement on good angels/bad angels from
Mystical City of God themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm
In Defense of The City of God Mystica Civitate Dei: dailycatholic.org/issue/05Jun/jun10tim.htm - to summarize the research of three priests on the official decision of the Holy Roman Catholic Church regarding The Mystical City of God by Venerable Mary of Jesus of Agreda and to ascertain thereby whether it is permitted for anyone of any authority whatsoever to forbid the reading of this extraordinary book.

As well as from the book of Revelations.
Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.Revelations 12:4
The stars are the bad angels, otherwise known as demons (to the best of my understanding from my spiritual reading).

Why do we say prayers such as St. Michael the Archangel prayer if there are no demons?

St. Michael, the archangel, defend us in the day of battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray and do thou, o Prince of Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast into Hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

Yes, I know the story, but in that case the devil specifically received permission from God to do that. Job is merely an analogous lesson that did not necessarily really happen. This story is not meant to be taken as a blueprint for how God does things. If God really let the devil have his way he would send a wave of incubuses and other horrible creatures to rape and pillage. Think about it.

We do have these sorts of things. Many people have been possessed. This is why we have exorcisms and an official Vatican exorcist. Even Mother Teresa submitted to an exorcism once. Hitler and Stalin and war in general strike me as things sent by the devil.

As for the book of Job, St. John of the Cross (Mystical Doctor - one of the 33 Doctors of the Catholic Church, spiritual director of St. Teresa of Avila (one of the 3 female Doctors of the Church, founded the discalced Carmelites of whom His Holiness Pope John Paul II was a member, order in which St. Therese of Liseux, one of the 3 female Doctors of the Church was a member)) are considered by some to be commentaries on the book of Job. E.g. his books such as Dark Night of the Soul a time of purging and suffering. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=276768

Yeah…I know.

I’m not saying that I don’t value intelligence. I do, very highly. I am simply saying that moral character is of infinitely more importance than intelligence. Lucifer (Satan) was considered to be the most intelligent angel of God. There is also such a thing as demonic intelligence. Many of the world’s greatest evildoers have been highly intelligent. That’s why moral character should always trump intelligence. At the very least, the blessing of God should be on he who has moral character and so his diminished intelligence may still prove enough in comparison to an extremely bright, intelligent person who lacks moral character.

**Again, Mother Teresa said that “the fruit of abortion is nuclear war. What you do to the unborn child, you do to Jesus.” ** If nuclear war happens, will you blame it on God, humans, or evil spirits?

 

[Neithan]

I concede this point, but then those people have free will and it is only through their efforts at their respective careers that any of this occurs. You all ignore my point that if the above people did not do their jobs God would watch as you and your family starve.

Why? If he gets the credit for a bounty of food on the table isn’t it logical that he gets the blame for times when he “withdraws” food? Why do you insist it is a unilateral arrangement?

It is a unilateral arrangement, ultimately. Our existence is unilateral - we don’t cooperate in simply existing. We didn’t make ourselves be. We receive everything. You are approaching the cosmos as if we - human beings - have some kind of claim on its operation; as if it’s some kind of democratic state wherein we have ‘inalienable rights’. We have no rights, ultimately, that are not given to us. Everything we have, our whole existence, is a gift from God. So if we have food on the table i.e. that which sustains our physical existence, we give thanks. If we have no food, why should we ‘blame’ God? If your boss doesn’t give you a nice gift basket everyday at your work, do you get angry and blame him?
I guess you could blame God if you live during a famine, but that’s all part of the mystery of suffering that can only be answered by the Cross. If you reject that, then there is no existential answer, and No One to blame.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

It is a unilateral arrangement, ultimately. Our existence is unilateral - we don’t cooperate in simply existing. We didn’t make ourselves be. We receive everything. You are approaching the cosmos as if we - human beings - have some kind of claim on its operation; as if it’s some kind of democratic state wherein we have ‘inalienable rights’. We have no rights, ultimately, that are not given to us. Everything we have, our whole existence, is a gift from God. So if we have food on the table i.e. that which sustains our physical existence, we give thanks. If we have no food, why should we ‘blame’ God? If your boss doesn’t give you a nice gift basket everyday at your work, do you get angry and blame him?
I guess you could blame God if you live during a famine, but that’s all part of the mystery of suffering that can only be answered by the Cross. If you reject that, then there is no existential answer, and No One to blame.

Well said Neithan and I just wanted to say it’s nice to see some old faces around here from about the same time I showed up here. God bless and as we say g’day mate:thumbsup:

 

[Kuzushi]

When your boss gives you a paycheck you thank him, but if payday comes and there is no paycheck on your desk the same boss will get the blame. Why is it God gets all the thanks but skates by with none of the downside? Now some of you seem to indicate that even if there is no food it is simply God allowing evil. I have to wonder why it is that God allows his food provision to be so easily interrupted. One of you even thinks that active demons prowl the earth physically damaging crops, drying up water, etc.

It seems that God always gets the benefit of the doubt and it is always heads God wins tails humans loose. I guess there is simply nothing I can say to those who think that no matter what happens it is what God wants, and you are all fine with that. I will just reiterate that I think there would be a lot less thankful people around once you and your children’s belly started to growl and then move into starvation mode.

 

[Shin]

Pardon me, do you resent always giving God ‘the benefit of the doubt’? When God is by definition absolutely good and you are not, and He is more intelligent and deeper than you than the heavens are as far from the depths of the earth?

He is God, you are not. That is humility… but also simple basic logic. If God says something is – it is, even if to all appearances it is otherwise. That’s basic logic too.

Once God has been revealed to you by Revelation – you re-evaluate the world based on what He tells you about it.

One you know God, you have Faith. It doesn’t require putting away intelligence or any such thing – you come to God with your whole self – it requires deeper insight and Faith. It has already been explained how all these things work, in a deeper fashion than the superficial approach of the world to them.

Some people get so caught up in themselves and their predispositions and judgments they can’t hear or see how God shows a way out of their problems as well as shows the deeper reasons for them – but it is the person’s own fault for not being willing to try a different path, and seek a truer understanding.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

When your boss gives you a paycheck you thank him, but if payday comes and there is no paycheck on your desk the same boss will get the blame. Why is it God gets all the thanks but skates by with none of the downside? Now some of you seem to indicate that even if there is no food it is simply God allowing evil. I have to wonder why it is that God allows his food provision to be so easily interrupted. One of you even thinks that active demons prowl the earth physically damaging crops, drying up water, etc.

It seems that God always gets the benefit of the doubt and it is always heads God wins tails humans loose. I guess there is simply nothing I can say to those who think that no matter what happens it is what God wants, and you are all fine with that. I will just reiterate that I think there would be a lot less thankful people around once you and your children’s belly started to growl and then move into starvation mode.

I can’t say that I am 100% completely fine with that. * That my friend is my struggle of Christianity. * It’s one reason that Christianity is a religion all about “picking up one’s cross,” and the “narrow way to life that few people will find.” I think that to the extent to which one is able to trust God in this world despite all evidence to the contrary, is the extent to which one receives merit and glory in Heaven and saves one’s soul.

See Abraham and the Old Testament when God commanded him to sacrifice Issac. See then Mary in the New Testament as God the Father and Mary sacrificed Jesus Christ on the Cross. The wooden cross was a wooden altar, sacrificing Christ’s body and blood for all of mankind. See how many of his disciples left him in John when he said - Eucharist - eat and drink me or you will not live.

St. John of the Cross is one of the biggest, most venerated Doctors of the Church. I would not be surprised if the movie the Dark Knight was partially in honor of St. John of the Cross’s book Dark Night of the Soul. Its the same theory. Batman’s life is wack and so is Harvey Dent’s life as well as the Gotham city. Joker is a devil-like figure, pure evil without explanation. Yet, Batman’s continuing but imperfect pursuit of the good purifies him by the end of the night though he is all alone. This is the same theme as Dark Night of the Soul. Greater and greater suffering until final purification and union with Christ.

Is that the theme of the world? Is the world a clay in God’s hands that he will continue to purify through suffering in order to make it whole and clean and lovely, beautiful, and holy? Remember how he destroyed the world once with Noah’s Flood. I think Noah’s Flood is worse than famine, slavery, the Holocaust, or abortion. If you read Judaism’s Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism Rejected Homosexuality catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0003.html , you realize that Judaism was the first and pretty much only religion until Christianity to put real limits on sexuality and thus allow the development of progress/science. The West’s dominance is attributed to Judeo-Christianity.

The idea of God as loving (see: Roman ideas of gods and goddesses as capricious) is Judeo-Christian in origin. Maybe the day that we as a nation and world fully and 100% submit to Judeo-Christianity, without all the exceptions that we find (abortion, contraception, lying, homosexual sex activity, self-vengeance instead of leaving it for the Lord, not keeping the Sabbath holy, disrespecting elders) will be the day that we receive the fullness of Christ’s blessing and peace on our world and paradise in Heaven.

However, the question of man’s role with God and the evil in the world is perpetual. You see it in the Old Testament when you see Abraham arguing with God about whether or not God should save or destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for the sake of a few good people. You see it with Moses talking with God about not destroying the Israelites for their sins. You see it with Jonah who didn’t want to preach to his people.

My struggle in Christianity is being fine with that. I know that I earn merit by trusting in God and doing his will when all looks to the contrary and have seen through experience that “everything works for the good of those who love God, who are called to his promise.” I largely understand theoretically much of the reason for this struggle and have been convinced by personal, scientific, logical, and historical evidence. Yet, it remains a lifelong struggle! The degree to which we can accept, believe, trust, follow, and obey God despite our present ignorance about the infinite good/loving kindness of God, may be the degree to which we are rewarded in the afterlife and reach perfection and fullness and happiness in union with Christ now and for eternity!

Besides, maybe God wants us to solve the world’s problems as we are responsible for them due to the actions of our forefathers in the Garden of Eden. While we are on the Earth by patiently enduring sacrifice, suffering, and prayer. While in Heaven, by working miracles and helping our fellow pilgrims on Earth and pleading with God for mercy on the world. St. Therese of Liseux, while still on Earth before her death, said, "I will spend my Heaven doing good on Earth. She seems to have done so with miracles attributed to her name.

Perhaps if you reach full and perfect union with Christ, you can work miracles for us on Earth one day when you are in Heaven.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Something important about the Garden of Eden.

I heard this preached at Daily Mass at a Carmelite monastery.

When Satan invited Eve to eat the apple, the evil one said that God didn’t want her to eat the apple because she would know “good and evil” and “know more than God.” She and Adam ate the apple and now they know more than God. God does not know evil.

 

[Neithan]

When your boss gives you a paycheck you thank him, but if payday comes and there is no paycheck on your desk the same boss will get the blame. Why is it God gets all the thanks but skates by with none of the downside?

You twisted the analogy I gave above. God doesn’t ‘pay’ us. We don’t work for God for anything here. Any grace or good we receive from Him here is gratuitous, including the food that sustains us, that’s why we thank God for it. It’s not a paycheck, but a gift.

Now some of you seem to indicate that even if there is no food it is simply God allowing evil. I have to wonder why it is that God allows his food provision to be so easily interrupted. One of you even thinks that active demons prowl the earth physically damaging crops, drying up water, etc.

I think a lot of Christians don’t understand the basic theology of the Fall and Redemption. Redeemed Man is not pre-Fall Man. God does not change His Mind, and He did not undo the effects of the Fall, namely suffering and death, rather He transformed them through Christ into a means for eternal glory. What was our punishment is become our salvation. That’s what the Mystery of the Cross reveals to us.

Our lives here are already forfeit. We are born to die. As soon as we are baptised, the essential requirement of our time here on earth is fulfilled. Famine, earthquake, hurricanes etc. that harm us are still a consequence of this fallen natural world, which is passing away. What is starvation, if it is starvation unto eternal life? Nature kills us all, one way or another, and that is no loss; as St. Paul so poignantly summed it all up: ‘to live is Christ, and to die is gain’ (Philippians 1:21).

It seems that God always gets the benefit of the doubt and it is always heads God wins tails humans loose. I guess there is simply nothing I can say to those who think that no matter what happens it is what God wants, and you are all fine with that. I will just reiterate that I think there would be a lot less thankful people around once you and your children’s belly started to growl and then move into starvation mode.

Vice versa! It seems there is simply nothing we can say to clarify your understanding of Christian cosmology if you obstinately refuse to give up your false assumptions. Again: this life, this world are already forfeit, and the food we get from God to sustain our time here a little longer is completely gratuitous. He does not owe us anything here.

 

[Neithan]

Something important about the Garden of Eden.

I heard this preached at Daily Mass at a Carmelite monastery.

Interesting… but how does that harmonize with Genesis 3:22?

Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil

How I always understood it was that Adam condemned himself for trying to be like God; but Christ, through Adam’s sin, literally has given us the divine life as a Gift. As Athanasius said: *God became Man, that Man might become God. *

God knows that, however Adam uses his Free Will, good would be done. The evil of Original Sin is far outweighed by the good it makes possible for us in Redemption. That is why the Easter *Exultet *proclaims “O Happy Fault!”