Saying grace?

[AveSantaMaria]

No, I disagree with your definition. A “miracle” is certainly any intervention on behalf of mortal man by a supernatural being, i.e. God. The frequency or lack there of, of miracles has NOTHING to do with being a miracle. Why do you think frequency is relevant? It is the supernatural ACT that matters. The act could be curing cancer or finding lost keys. If God intervenes in the lives of mankind it is, by definition, a miracle. The term “small miracle” is contradictory.

Here’s an excerpt from: Mystical City of God that might help explains things.

1. The holy archangel Gabriel appeared to saint Anne in human form more resplendent than the sun, and said to her: "Anne, servant of God, I am an angel sent from the council of the Most High, who in divine condescension looks upon the humble of the earth (Psalm 137, 6). Good is incessant prayer and humble confidence. The Lord has heard thy petitions, for He is nigh to those who call upon Him with living faith and hope, and who expect his salvation (Ps. 144, 18). If He delays hearing their clamors and defers the fulfillment of their prayers, it is in order to dispose them to receive and to oblige Himself to give much more than they ask and desire. Prayer and almsgiving open the treasures of the Lord, the omnipotent King, and incline Him to be lavish in mercy toward those, who ask (Tob. 11, 8). Thou and Joachim have prayed for the Fruit of benediction and the Most High has resolved to give you holy and wonderful Fruit; and by it He will enrich you with heavenly gifts, granting to you much more than you have asked. For having humiliated yourselves in prayer, the Lord wishes to magnify Himself in conceding your petitions: because those, who in humble confidence pray to Him without belittling his infinite power, are most agreeable to the Lord. Persevere in prayer and ask without ceasing for the Redemption of the human race in order to constrain the Most High. Moses by unceasing prayer brought victory to the people (Exod. 17, 11); Esther by prayer obtained liberation from the death sentence (Esther 4, 11); Judith by the same means was filled with fortitude to execute a most arduous task for the salvation of Israel: She fulfilled it, though a weak and frail woman (Judith 9, 1). David came forth victorious in his combat with the giant, because he prayed, invoking the name of the Lord (I Kings 17, 45; III Kings 18, 36). Elias drew fire from heaven by his sacrifice and by his prayer opened and closed the heavens…

Mystical City of God themostholyrosary.com/mystical-city.htm
In Defense of The City of God Mystica Civitate Dei: dailycatholic.org/issue/05Jun/jun10tim.htm - to summarize the research of three priests on the official decision of the Holy Roman Catholic Church regarding The Mystical City of God by Venerable Mary of Jesus of Agreda and to ascertain thereby whether it is permitted for anyone of any authority whatsoever to forbid the reading of this extraordinary book.

 

[LilyM]

I have already said we should be thankful to all who participate in our capitalist system that make the VERY complicated process of putting food on our table possible. We should also be thankful to all the soldiers who participate in the keeping us and our system safe from foreign invaders who would take away our way of life. We should thank ourselves for participating in the economy where goods and services are readily available.

As I said earlier, if it were not for all the above mentioned people God would simply stand by and watch us all starve. It has happened before, so don’t try to deny it.

Your point being? I’m sure we ARE all thankful for all these things - as well as to God who makes them possible, even if it’s indirectly as you seem to suggest. As well as adding undoubted contributions of His own that no human being could provide

You seem simply to repeat endlessly your belief that God doesn’t intervene in human events. Which you certainly can’t hope to adequately prove or logically establish. I suppose you’d never thank your parents for giving you life (a pretty valuable and generally good gift, after all, and infinitely preferable to non-existence), even had they done nothing other than give birth to you?

Basically, mere repetition of your assertions is useless. It’s no way of demonstrating your theory. I’d assert that in fact your theory is pretty much UNtestable, UNprovable - after all, there’s not really any way of removing ALL human interference from a food situation while simultaneously keeping track of what happens.

On the contrary, I was just watching recently a tv show about the collapse of a building in Seoul, Korea. I’ll try and find more specific information about it for you. A person trapped under the rubble for I think three WEEKS, if not longer, obviously without food or water, nonethless survived. My understanding is that a person without food or water would normally die going without them for that long. So you still think people don’t survive in situations like this, where there is no human help and realistically they should’ve died?

On the contrary my theory (that God DOES intervene) has been frequently tested by my frequent prayers. Of course not all of them have been answered ‘YES’, but far more of them have indeed been answered than can possibly be explained away as coincidence.

 

[Shin]

Here’s an excerpt from: Mystical City of God that might help explains things.

Ven. Mary of Agreda’s Mystical City of God online in etext form! I am so happy I could fly! A trillion thanks!

Oh it’s just wonderful that more and more of these Catholic classics are being put online! My life is so happy because of them!

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Ven. Mary of Agreda’s Mystical City of God online in etext form! I am so happy I could fly! A trillion thanks!

Oh it’s just wonderful that more and more of these Catholic classics are being put online! My life is so happy because of them!

It is so lovely and amazing, glorious, and happy in general to hear your appreciation of these beautiful Catholic texts! This book is a whopper in page length but every page thus far has been extremely illuminating!!

 

[Shin]

It is so lovely and amazing, glorious, and happy in general to hear your appreciation of these beautiful Catholic texts! This book is a whopper in page length but every page thus far has been extremely illuminating!!

Oh I have been gathering them for some time. I download and buy all I possibly can and organize them for reference and reading. Whenever I find a new source of Catholic books online I am very happy. I have quite a few rarities, such as ‘The Seven Spiritual Weapons’ of St. Catherine, ‘The Revelations of St. Elizabeth’, part of ‘The Revelations of St. Bridget’ and many more but many more have not yet been made available for free. . .

Perhaps the thread starter could do with reading some more of these too.

'“Most excellent lady, were you not sanctified in your mother’s womb? How was it that you said these things? Were you not free from every sin and filled with every grace?”

“Listen, Elizabeth. Undoubtedly, daughter, I was such as you say. However, you should know this in truth, that at that time I considered myself vile and wretched and unworthy of every grace of God’s, just as you now consider yourself, and even more so. And so I was always asking God that he would deign to infuse into me his grace and strength.”’

The Blessed Virgin to St. Elizabeth, from ‘The Revelations of St. Elizabeth of Toss’

‘He who trusts himself is lost. He who trusts in God can do all things.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

 

[Kuzushi]

A miracle is not ‘any intervention on behalf of mortal man by a supernatural being’ because God intervenes in every aspect of our lives every day, hour, and minute.

Well then we disagree on semantics. Read through the postings on CA and you will see people thanking God for giving them a job, passing a difficult exam at school, curing cancer, introducing them to a spouse, etc. If a supernatural being like God, a space alien, ghosts, etc. somehow intervenes to help or hurt a human I say it is a miracle. What would you call it?

 

[Kuzushi]

The constant referral to the use of logic to prove one’s point seems to indicate that some would like God to conform to a set of expectations established by one of us humans. There’s logic for you. God should act and react in a way His creations believe He should. Who are we to give God rules of conduct to live by ?

I think God is probably quite logical. It is MAN’S interpretation through religion that is very often flawed. As I wrote earlier, I do not give either credit or blame to God for what occurs to men. I feel it is those who are saying grace that are being inconsistent and illogical.

 

[Kuzushi]

We are having a discussion about hard science. Dr. Edoardo Linoli was (to the best of my internet research and imperfect understanding) professor of anatomy, pathological histology, chemistry and clinical microsocpy, and the former head of the Laboratory of Pathological Anatomy at the Hospital of Arezzo.

Okay, but were this doctor’s “studies” verified through a peer review process by UNBIASED colleagues? I doubt it, because if it were it would not be hidden away on some obscure web site. It would be a lead news story. I can tell that you want to believe so bad that you will go to any length. Don’t you see that your desperation only proves my point?

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Okay, but were this doctor’s “studies” verified through a peer review process by UNBIASED colleagues? I doubt it, because if it were it would not be hidden away on some obscure web site. It would be a lead news story. I can tell that you want to believe so bad that you will go to any length. Don’t you see that your desperation only proves my point?

PubMed.com is not an obscure website. PubMed is a service of the U.S. National Library of Medicine that includes over 18 million citations from MEDLINE and other life science journals for biomedical articles back to 1948. PubMed includes links to full text articles and other related resources.

It is probably not a lead news story because it was published so long ago and is in Italian. I seriously suspect that almost every single doctor in the United States knows about and uses PubMed.

 

[Kuzushi]

Basically, mere repetition of your assertions is useless. It’s no way of demonstrating your theory. I’d assert that in fact your theory is pretty much UNtestable, UNprovable

An atheist would say the same about your faith in God.

I am merely pointing out what I see as an error in logic and an inconsistency in Christian thought. Let’s look at my statement another way. Let’s say this economy gets even worse and it is no longer profitable for farmers to grow crops, truckers to move materials, and grocers to sell food. If this goes on too long people will begin to starve. What happened to the equation? The HUMANS involved in the process stopped doing what they do. God was not involved either way. If God did not zap the food on your plate I just do not see why people thank him. His involvement in the process occurred billions of years ago when the earth was created.

I really believe people say grace and do other prayers simply to feel warm and fuzzy while they hope that God somehow knows or cares about them.

A person trapped under the rubble for I think three WEEKS, if not longer, obviously without food or water, nonethless survived. My understanding is that a person without food or water would normally die going without them for that long.

That does not mean or prove anything. Was this person even Christian? If he is Buddhist maybe you have the wrong faith. There are many reasons why this person may have lived. For every story like this there are many more that end in tragedy. As I have said, if miracles really are happening where is the occasional lost limb growing back? It just does not happen.

Doesn’t it bother you that so many of these “miracle” stories are often far away geographically or in time. It is just like the typical hazy UFO or Bigfoot pictures. These things are always provocative enough to spike interest, but are short on facts.

 

[Kuzushi]

It is probably not a lead news story because it was published so long ago and is in Italian. I seriously suspect that almost every single doctor in the United States knows about and uses PubMed

Ok, great so by now some smart modern American doctor who knows Italian must have conducted some independent unbiased peer review right? What are the results please?

 

[Kuzushi]

It is so lovely and amazing, glorious, and happy in general to hear your appreciation of these beautiful Catholic texts! This book is a whopper in page length but every page thus far has been extremely illuminating!!

Even from a strict Catholic perspective the source of doctrine is the Bible and CCC. These books are only the author’s opinions. Don’t make it any more than it is. I think even the most dedicated Catholic would join me in this. Or at least they should.

 

[Shin]

Even from a strict Catholic perspective the source of doctrine is the Bible and CCC. These books are only the author’s opinions. Don’t make it any more than it is. I think even the most dedicated Catholic would join me in this. Or at least they should.

Just how old are you anyway? You don’t -read the Bible-, if you read the Bible you would have agreed with what has been told to you here long ago.

Or don’t you think they give thanks in the Bible? Or haven’t you noticed the Bible teaches God guides all things and intervenes in all events?

Honestly you are beginning to sound like a troll.

 

[Kuzushi]

Just how old are you anyway? You don’t -read the Bible-, if you read the Bible you would have agreed with what has been told to you here long ago.

Or don’t you think they give thanks in the Bible? Or haven’t you noticed the Bible teaches God guides all things and intervenes in all events?

Honestly you are beginning to sound like a troll.

The comments you are quoting were directed at ASM who often uses obscure books and references as if they are fact. You are so hasty to criticize me that you did not read my comments in context. In my experience this occurs when people are reluctant to admit that the other person in the discussion is right.

Am I just saying what you have been thinking all along? Don’t be embarrassed to admit it. It is a sign of an intelligent person who questions things that are not logical. Ultimately, if my posts disturb or annoy you please feel free not to post or read here.

Actually I have read the Bible several times.

 

[Highwayhound]

I really believe people say grace and do other prayers simply to feel warm and fuzzy while they hope that God somehow knows or cares about them.

You state that the saying of grace as a form of prayer is below you. What, as a Catholic, do you do as prayer? Which prayers do you find helpful to your soul? If you would like to know my prayers feel free to ask, either publically or with a private message.

Doesn’t it bother you that so many of these “miracle” stories are often far away geographically or in time. It is just like the typical hazy UFO or Bigfoot pictures. These things are always provocative enough to spike interest, but are short on facts.

Here is a fairly recent miracle. Plenty of facts are given. Is 1981 recent enough to help you?

“It was about nine o’clock at night,” recalls Maureen. “Father Seraphim suggested we pray the Chaplet of The Divine Mercy for a healing. I thought, 'Ah, healing — whatever. This is something you read about in the Bible. It doesn’t really happen. But I’ll go in and go through it just to make them happy.”

Then, inwardly she heard Sr. Faustina say: “If you ask for my help, I will give it to you.”

Maureen responded: “Okay, Faustina you dragged me to this country so far from home, if you are going to do something, do it now!”
That’s when it all happened.

thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3204

The link goes to part 1 and the quote I posted is from part 2.

There is information about doctors assessing the medical aspects.

There is also a video where you can hear Maureen Digan speak about the events, but right now I cannot recall the title. In the video you can see a shot of the medical report filed by her personal physician.

His involvement in the process occurred billions of years ago when the earth was created.

Are you God’s spokesman? On what basis do you make this amazing claim?

There are other miracles, but you have to do the work. Nobody here can give you the faith to believe. Only God can and he is not some watchmaker who wound up the world and then set it ticking along through time. You have to give him your worship. It seems that this is something you are unwilling to do. It is entirely possible that I am wrong. It has happened before.

God bless

 

[Kuzushi]

You state that the saying of grace as a form of prayer is below you.

Huh? When did I say that? When I came ot this forum I thought I would get good intellectual feedback. Some posters do a good job, but some have insulted me by calling me “thick,” “juvenile,” etc. I have been told I am going to hell, and that I “can’t” be a Catholic. By far the most common offense is exactly what you are doing. My comments and arguments are misstated in such a way that make me look crazy, foolish, or over the top. This is called using a straw man and I thought it would be above the people here. I have learned more about Catholics, then Catholicism. What is with the hostility?

I will check out the miracle you refer to, but I would think such a thing would be plastered in ALL the medical journals and even the secular press if it is true. I should not have to “do the work” because in this information age such news would be available if it is that good. That is what I am trying to tell ASM

 

[Highwayhound]

I really believe people say grace and do other prayers simply to feel warm and fuzzy while they hope that God somehow knows or cares about them.

The above quote is from post #70. It is from this post specifically and from a summation reading of your other posts that I came to my conclusion that you state that saying grace is beneath you. Mind you in my 40 plus years I have never heard of anyone objecting to the practice of saying grace before a meal. Most people do not refer to an activity as being done for feelings that are “simple” and “warm and fuzzy” if they find the activity worthy of them.

In my first post of this thread (see post #17) I suggested that saying grace was a way of practicing the virtue of humility. You dismissed this thought (see post #23) stating you did not see the connection and that there are better ways to become humble.

Because you object to saying grace (see post #1) I asked you specifically what prayers you pray and find helpful to your soul. Since your profile states you are ‘catholic’ I thought this would be a straightforward and simple question. You chose not to answer my inquiry. I, in a gesture of kindness, offered to share with you the prayers I find helpful to me as a Catholic (see post #75). You did not inquire of me what prayers I use in my life. You did not answer a simple question any Catholic could answer. I know of no reason why a Catholic would not give a response to a question about prayer. My conclusion from your lack of response and your objections is that you are not Catholic.

If I am incorrect please accept my sincere apology.

I am not here to demean, besmirch or in any way hurt anyone.

I will check out the miracle you refer to, but I would think such a thing would be plastered in ALL the medical journals and even the secular press if it is true. I should not have to “do the work” because in this information age such news would be available if it is that good. That is what I am trying to tell ASM

Please understand that I was a 15 year old in 1981. I actively read all available media (newspapers, magazines), listened to radio news every morning on the way to and coming home from school, and watched the evening news (local and national). If there had been any mention of this that year I would have known. I am not sure where you were or what age you were in 1981(your profile is a little thin) perhaps you could fill in a few blanks?

The secular press has had no interest in promoting Christianity for a long time. I had never heard of Christian music until our youth group went to an Amy Grant concert in Portland (circa 1984). It was awesome , but I had never seen any mention of Christian music in the media ever!

This link shows the videos I am guessing concern Maureen Digan(I have watched many videos on faith related subjects).
ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=3047

or it is this one:

aquinasandmore.com/index.cfm/title/Divine-Mercy-No-Escape/FuseAction/store.ItemDetails/SKU/3621/

Hopefully, if you are interested, you might check to see if you could rent these from a local Catholic store. That is what I did.

Well it is late, and the silliness that is Daylights Savings Time is upon me and mass will be here early tomorrow morning.

God bless

 

[Kuzushi]

I have never heard of anyone objecting to the practice of saying grace before a meal. Most people do not refer to an activity as being done for feelings that are “simple” and “warm and fuzzy” if they find the activity worthy of them.

When someone says something is “beneath them” I think it denotes a sense of arrogance where the person thinks they are better than the activity in question. That is not what I am saying at all. I just think that saying grace is not logical. I question logic in many areas. For example, I am also active on financial forums, and I think that conventional “buy and hold” of managed mutual funds is nuts, and I have often said so.

Because you object to saying grace (see post #1) I asked you specifically what prayers you pray and find helpful to your soul. Since your profile states you are ‘catholic’ I thought this would be a straightforward and simple question. You chose not to answer my inquiry. I, in a gesture of kindness, offered to share with you the prayers I find helpful to me as a Catholic (see post #75). You did not inquire of me what prayers I use in my life. You did not answer a simple question any Catholic could answer. I know of no reason why a Catholic would not give a response to a question about prayer. My conclusion from your lack of response and your objections is that you are not Catholic.

You are drawing a very definite and serious conclusion from a non sequitur string of data. I was born a Catholic and was an alter boy, lecter, usher, extraordinary minister, and I went to Catholic school from grades 1 to 12. I have never renounced my Catholicism. I have come to doubt that prayer changes the human condition.

The secular press has had no interest in promoting Christianity for a long time.

The secular press is interested in ratings/circulation so if any of these “miracles” really occurred they would be covered I assure you.

 

[Kuzushi]

Ok I read about the “miracle” at thedivinemercy.org/news/story.php?NID=3212. I do not have a medical background so I do not know how the female’s swelling went down. The story even admits that her son’s healing was “incomplete.” Does that make any sense to you? If a supernatural being like God is going to get involved in human affairs do you think he would do it only half way?

The story said the theologians declared it a miracle, but the possible explanations and theories of the doctors was not given. I am sure their (name removed by moderator)ut would make this occurrence substantially less dramatic. Some times illnesses just go into remission and doctors do not know why. It happens to non-Christians too.

I thought this would be a story about the poor ladies leg growing back, but I really did not see much to hang your hat on here.

 

[Highwayhound]

I just think that saying grace is not logical. I question logic in many areas. For example, I am also active on financial forums, and I think that conventional “buy and hold” of managed mutual funds is nuts, and I have often said so.

Logical thinking is fair enough. Prayer is not based on logic though. It stems from faith.

I was born a Catholic and was an alter boy, lecter, usher, extraordinary minister, and I went to Catholic school from grades 1 to 12. I have never renounced my Catholicism. I have come to doubt that prayer changes the human condition.

Thanks for giving some background to your life.

You are drawing a very definite and serious conclusion from a non sequitur string of data.

In post #76 you seemed puzzled by some people’s responses to your posts. You found it incomprehensible as to how some came to their conclusions. I tried to lay out the why and how of my conclusion. I thought it might be of help to you. Use of latin phrases and catchy terms such as ‘strawman’ will not change the impression made. You can accept my (name removed by moderator)ut or rejected it. It matters not to me. I accept your statement of your past as factual.

I have learned not make conclusions to quickly on these types of messages boards. I cannot see a person’s day to day life. After a lengthy reading of a person’s posts a reader can begin to understand part of the poster’s thinking. Your mode of thinking (saying grace is an illogical waste of time { am I getting close?}) is outside of my understanding of a Catholic. I have met Catholics and eaten with Catholics (not to mention the other Christians that I know) all over this world and I have never come across a Catholic person that objects/views as wasteful the praying of grace before a meal.

The secular press is interested in ratings/circulation so if any of these “miracles” really occurred they would be covered I assure you.

Au contraire (is French permitable, I do not know latin, but I do know a little French), “The secular press” is not some automaton. Some robotic entity that merely takes what is in the world and utilizes it for its own betterment. The press/media is a collective of humans with all their frailties and misgivings. A reporter will look at something and then think, “What will my editor’s response be? Will they like the story idea or think it a silly waste of time? If I mention this to my co-workers will they laugh at me and think I am a religious nut/zealot?” Let alone their public reputation as a reporter. Reporters do not have the courage of Paul. Paul witnessed something truly amazing and went about large territories telling people about his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus - some believed and others thought he was cuckoo.

Modern day reporters’ ego will not allow themselves to be thought of as cuckoo. I worked as a janitor for a newspaper and have interacted with reporters enough to understand that they are human and have all the normal failings that come with being human. (Especially this one photographer, apparently from the amount of popcorn I cleaned up off the floor around her desk she could not hit her mouth to save her life.)

Onto the case of Maureen Digan

Medication cannot cure lymphedema. However, your physician may prescribe medications to treat associated conditions. For example, antibiotics play an important role in combating infections that can worsen lymphedema.

vascularweb.org/patients/NorthPoint/Lymphedema.html

No cure for lymphedema exists.

mayoclinic.com/health/lymphedema/DS00609

If you examine the literature you will find that as of the present day there is NO CURE for lymphedema. Maureen’s case was back in 1981 and earlier.

Also, before the trip to Poland to visit St. Faustina Maureen her leg was scheduled to be amputated. The disappearance of her lymphedema happened immediately following the prayers at St. Faustina’s tomb. While they were there, not on the way back to hotel, or not on the flight home.

I am unsure what you are seeking when it comes to prayer and miracles. In this case there was prayer and an incurable disease went away.

God bless