Saying grace?

[Kuzushi]

Prayer is not based on logic though. It stems from faith.

Faith has to be based upon logical and consistent conclusions.

Use of latin phrases and catchy terms such as ‘strawman’ will not change the impression made. You can accept my (name removed by moderator)ut or rejected it.

Wow you actually make me sound somewhat intelligent. I do not recall using Latin, but when I say you are using a straw man it simply means that you are restating my arguments in such a way that no reasonable person would agree with it.

Your mode of thinking (saying grace is an illogical waste of time { am I getting close?}) is outside of my understanding of a Catholic.

Really? I do this sort of thing all the time, but then I know I am weird. There are MANY things that I question. Did you ever wonder how you are supposed to clean soap?..but I digress from religion.

The secular press" is not some automaton. Some robotic entity that merely takes what is in the world and utilizes it for its own betterment. The press/media is a collective of humans with all their frailties and misgivings. A reporter will look at something and then think, "What will my editor’s response be?

You make some good points, but I think if a reporter can get a quote from a real doctor or scientist stating that a “miracle” has occurred he or she will go for it.

No cure for lymphedema exists.

There is no real “cure” per se for any cancer. However, cancer does go into remission without any known explanation. As I said, her son was only “half cured.” Why would God do only half the job? Why do these things always seem to occur in far away rural areas without video or other support? I call this the typical “fuzzy Bigfoot photo.” My overall point is that we should not be debating about the legitimacy of one rare occurrence. God either does miracles or he does not. If he does we should see frequent re-growth of limbs, eyes reappearing, etc.

 

[LilyM]

Faith has to be based upon logical and consistent conclusions.

You’ve stated that you’ve never lost your Catholic faith? Presumably meaning you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate? That the Catholic faith, if not absolutely true, (you can’t possibly believe that it’s absolutely true, as it is a consistent teaching of the Church that God does indeed intervene in human events) has some sort of spiritual advantage over all the other possible faiths? That the Pope indeed has some sort of spiritual headship in the world.

How logical and consistent (in a strict sense of logic and consistency) is it (really) to believe in God at all? To believe that God became human in the person of Jesus Christ? To believe that the Catholic Church offers something that other faiths don’t?

How logical and consistent is it even to believe that the teachings of the Church are partially but not wholly true? Ie that God DID intervene in human affairs to the extent of sending His son to die for our sins, but not in any other way? That’s like believing that Newton’s theory of gravity is only partly true (say that only objects heavier than 20 ounces inevitably fall towards Earth).

 

[Highwayhound]

Faith has to be based upon logical and consistent conclusions.

Says who? It seems illogical to have faith, yet I do. If one does not pray and act then one’s faith will wilt.

Wow you actually make me sound somewhat intelligent. I do not recall using Latin, but when I say you are using a straw man it simply means that you are restating my arguments in such a way that no reasonable person would agree with it.

‘Non sequitor’ is latin.

I have grown tired of seeing this term ‘strawman’ used. It seems to be used as a means of dismissing a statement so that the person does not have to put out the mental energy to examine what the other person is trying to express or communicate.

Now, I am puzzled by two things.

1. You seem to focus on the son being half cured when Maureen Digan was fully cured. Why?
2. I am curious to know why you want to see a miracle where a limb is regrown. What is your reason?

So I am asking the questions.

Really? I do this sort of thing all the time, but then I know I am weird. There are MANY things that I question. Did you ever wonder how you are supposed to clean soap?..but I digress from religion.

I got a chuckle out of this, and no, I have never wondered how to clean soap.

You make some good points, but I think if a reporter can get a quote from a real doctor or scientist stating that a “miracle” has occurred he or she will go for it.

I knew a reporter who misnamed a bridge as “Lyle St Bridge” because the bridge was just down the hill from Lyle School. The bridge is the Levens St. Bridge because it is part of Levens St. Levens St. is only 5 blocks from the newspaper’s office or there is the internet which can be used as a tool in doing research for stories. Lyle St. is on the other side of town.

My point being reporters can be as lazy as the next person, perhaps lazier This is just one janitor’s opinion based on 5 years of observations.

There is no real “cure” per se for any cancer. However, cancer does go into remission without any known explanation. As I said, her son was only “half cured.” Why would God do only half the job? Why do these things always seem to occur in far away rural areas without video or other support? I call this the typical “fuzzy Bigfoot photo.” My overall point is that we should not be debating about the legitimacy of one rare occurrence. God either does miracles or he does not. If he does we should see frequent re-growth of limbs, eyes reappearing, etc.

Did you get a copy of the video about Divine Mercy and listen to the Maureen Digan talk about her experience in being cured by a miracle?

God bless

 

[Shin]

It seems illogical to have faith, yet I do.

In my case it is perfectly logical, and the faith part is the emotional and willpower commitment rather than any matter of intellect, of which I know the facts about religion to be like any other science, established fact.

Once you have established that God has spoken, through historical grace and miracles (for example the miracle of the preservation of the Church and her teachings) accepting the rest of what he says is simple logic rather than faith. God says it, it is so.

But putting that into deeds… putting that into your heart… Even though you know what to do, often a man does not do it – and that is lack of faith.

 

[Kuzushi]

How logical and consistent is it even to believe that the teachings of the Church are partially but not wholly true? Ie that God DID intervene in human affairs to the extent of sending His son to die for our sins, but not in any other way? That’s like believing that Newton’s theory of gravity is only partly true (say that only objects heavier than 20 ounces inevitably fall towards Earth).

The theology on why Jesus died on the cross relates to the innocent unblemished lamb being sacrificed for the sins of man. According to doctrine Jesus’s death allowed us to enter heaven. Of coarse my take on this is that since God calls the shots I don’t see why he could not simply say that since these sinful humans he created have free will and they have chosen to sin he could simply CHOOSE to forgive those who ask for it. But then that is a discussion for another thread.

It is not inconsistent that God would sacrifice his son so that the people he created could be with him in heaven while choosing NOT to intervene in the affairs of men. Obviously, that is indeed what has happened. No one here has been able to prove even one miracle let alone many.

 

[Kuzushi]

I have grown tired of seeing this term ‘strawman’ used. It seems to be used as a means of dismissing a statement so that the person does not have to put out the mental energy to examine what the other person is trying to express or communicate.

Well then try to be more diligent about understanding other people’s arguments. After all, the one who makes his case knows more about what they mean than a stranger attempting to restate the argument.

You seem to focus on the son being half cured when Maureen Digan was fully cured. Why?

As I said, either a miracle occurs or it does not. Why in all that is common sense would God only cure someone half way?

I am curious to know why you want to see a miracle where a limb is regrown. What is your reason?

I don’t think you have been paying attention. ALL the miracles named here are always vague, uncertain, and dubious. These are what I call the “fuzzy Bigfoot picture.” Either miracles occur or they do not. It would be a very apparent miracle if a limb were to grow back. These should be very common. Where are they?

 

[Shin]

Here are miracles that are from the personal testimony of many people. . holy and good people.

http://www.padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/Miracles.htm

I’ll note a friend of mine from the past knew Padre Pio personally. This man is of recent times. The people around him, reliable and holy witnesses.

 

[Kuzushi]

Here are miracles that are from the personal testimony of many people. . holy and good people.

http://www.padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/Miracles.htm

I’ll note a friend of mine from the past knew Padre Pio personally. This man is of recent times. The people around him, reliable and holy witnesses.

Just because it is on the internet or in black and white does not make it so. Look, you and ASM find these “miracles” listed in obscure websites that no one has ever heard of. Why do you think you have to turn to these? If miracles occurred- and I mean miracles in the truest since of the word where a supernatural being, ie God clearly intervenes in the affairs of men- then it would be ALL over the internet, television, the papers, etc.

Such incidents of severed limbs growing back, removed eyes appearing, etc. are examples. These do not occur so a LOGICAL person MUST conclude that they do not occur at all anywhere at ANY level.

 

[Highwayhound]

Just because it is on the internet or in black and white does not make it so. Look, you and ASM find these “miracles” listed in obscure websites that no one has ever heard of. Why do you think you have to turn to these? If miracles occurred- and I mean miracles in the truest since of the word where a supernatural being, ie God clearly intervenes in the affairs of men- then it would be ALL over the internet, television, the papers, etc.

Such incidents of severed limbs growing back, removed eyes appearing, etc. are examples. These do not occur so a LOGICAL person MUST conclude that they do not occur at all anywhere at ANY level.

Maureen Digan prayed at the tomb of St. Faustina, her incurable disease disappeared immediately following her prayer and there are mulitple examinations by doctors who state they have no explanation for the cure.

It is up to you to do the research, watch the videos and see the evidence presented. You are the one seeking evidence. You are the one who has doubts. If I or anyone else does the leg work for you it will have no meaning to you.

Happy researching.

God bless

 

[Shin]

Just because it is on the internet or in black and white does not make it so. Look, you and ASM find these “miracles” listed in obscure websites that no one has ever heard of. Why do you think you have to turn to these? If miracles occurred- and I mean miracles in the truest since of the word where a supernatural being, ie God clearly intervenes in the affairs of men- then it would be ALL over the internet, television, the papers, etc.

Such incidents of severed limbs growing back, removed eyes appearing, etc. are examples. These do not occur so a LOGICAL person MUST conclude that they do not occur at all anywhere at ANY level.

This website is quoting from books, which are based on the records and testimonies of real people documented and used as part of the canonization cause of St. Padre Pio.

 

[LilyM]

The theology on why Jesus died on the cross relates to the innocent unblemished lamb being sacrificed for the sins of man. According to doctrine Jesus’s death allowed us to enter heaven. Of coarse my take on this is that since God calls the shots I don’t see why he could not simply say that since these sinful humans he created have free will and they have chosen to sin he could simply CHOOSE to forgive those who ask for it. But then that is a discussion for another thread.

It is not inconsistent that God would sacrifice his son so that the people he created could be with him in heaven while choosing NOT to intervene in the affairs of men. Obviously, that is indeed what has happened. No one here has been able to prove even one miracle let alone many.

But don’t you see that His sending of His Son to die for the sins of mankind IS an intervention in the affairs of men.

Our sin and damnation, being caused by ourselves, IS very much an ‘affair of men’ - hence the necessity of Christ having to BECOME man to do something about it!

Logically the ONLY thing for a God who doesn’t intervene in the affairs of men to do is to leave us to perish in our sins as we deserve, and neither forgive nor redeem.

 

[Kuzushi]

Maureen Digan prayed at the tomb of St. Faustina, her incurable disease disappeared immediately following her prayer and there are mulitple examinations by doctors who state they have no explanation for the cure.

It is up to you to do the research, watch the videos and see the evidence presented. You are the one seeking evidence. You are the one who has doubts. If I or anyone else does the leg work for you it will have no meaning to you.

Happy researching.

God bless

You are WAY too easy to impress. Just becuse the docs are described as saying they “have no explanation” does NOT mean the doctors said it IS a miracle. It is the theologians that said that. Now YOU go re-read this and use CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS.

 

[Kuzushi]

But don’t you see that His sending of His Son to die for the sins of mankind IS an intervention in the affairs of men.

Okay, but that does NOT mean he does the things I have seen people on this and other boards give him credit for. There is no reason to believe that God cures cancer, brings spouses together, helps junior ace a test, gets someone a job, finds keys, etc. There is NO connection!

 

[LilyM]

Okay, but that does NOT mean he does the things I have seen people on this and other boards give him credit for. There is no reason to believe that God cures cancer, brings spouses together, helps junior ace a test, gets someone a job, finds keys, etc. There is NO connection!

You seriously can’t go around thinking that you’re a Catholic and believe that.

ALL of the above and more happens, either through His permissive will or His ordaining will. This is settled dogmatic teaching of the Church.

And yes, it is right to give Him thanks for everything that happens, for that reason. Doesn’t negate the human factor, of course, and it’s quite right to give thanks to the humans who are involved in providing our food, etc. As I’ve said, where I can, I do do so. Just means we must ALSO acknowledge the ultimate source of all good in our lives as well, which is God.

News flash - it’s also OK to pick a bone with Him about the bad stuff too - even Jesus begged that the cup of suffering be removed from Him - if it were possible, and if it were the Father’s will.

Of course it might not be His will to do so, just as it might not be His will to remove the suffering of those poor children in Africa. Doesn’t mean that He isn’t involved in all of it.

But hey, if you’d rather believe that God is useless and/or impotent just because He happens not to do things as you would do them in His place, then go right ahead. Kinda pointless to believe in a deity who’s been phoning it in for the last 2,000 years, of course. Even more pointless to believe in a deity who ISN’T the source of all good. Makes you, who do good, equally or more worthy of worship than the deity who made you and permits you (at least) to do that good. Talk about putting the cart before the horse!

 

[ruslan]

 

[LilyM]

Just a final thought - Scripture says it best (specifically Psalm 127) -

" 1 Unless the LORD builds the house,
its builders labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city,
the watchmen stand guard in vain.
2 In vain you rise early
and stay up late,
toiling for food to eat—
for he grants sleep to [a] those he loves. "

As a necessary logical corollary, each house that is built is built by the Lord, each city that is defended is defended by Him, ultimately - and so each morsel of food on your plate is put there by Him as well. Certainly it is good and proper to give thanks to the Lord (another Psalm says the same).

Unless you choose to dispute scripture itself, of course.

 

[Kuzushi]

You seriously can’t go around thinking that you’re a Catholic and believe that.

You seriously can not go around telling me what I think.

And yes, it is right to give Him thanks for everything that happens, for that reason. Doesn’t negate the human factor, of course, and it’s quite right to give thanks to the humans who are involved in providing our food, etc

If it were not for the human factor in the chain of events you would not have the food. I don’t think it is even necessary to thank the people involved per se. After all, they get paid for their participation in this process. It is our fine system of free market capitalism at work here and nothing else. If you want to be grateful vote for politicians who support business instead of taxing them.

Kinda pointless to believe in a deity who’s been phoning it in for the last 2,000 years, of course. Even more pointless to believe in a deity who ISN’T the source of all good. Makes you, who do good, equally or more worthy of worship than the deity who made you and permits you (at least) to do that good. Talk about putting the cart before the horse!

Actually those of the Deist philosophy also believe that God does not actively perform miracles. Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were Deist. The longer I live the more doubtful I become that the miracle of answered prayer occurs.

 

[LilyM]

You seriously can not go around telling me what I think.

I seriously can go around telling you lots of things, including in some cases what you should be thinking. If you say 2+2 = 5 then I have every right to tell you you’re wrong, and will be in an awful lot of trouble very soon, unless you start understanding that 2+2 = 4. No matter how much you claim you aren’t wrong or how much you think you can successfully live your life contrary to the laws of mathematics.

So if you say you are a faithful Catholic but, knowing her dogmatic teachings on a subject full well, wilfully disagree with them, then you are lots of things but you ain’t right. Which seems very much to be what you’re doing in this case

Actually those of the Deist philosophy also believe that God does not actively perform miracles. Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were Deist. The longer I live the more doubtful I become that the miracle of answered prayer occurs.

Deism - or at least the idea that God does not actively perform miracles - is incompatible with Catholicism. Of course neither Jefferson nor Franklin were Catholic. I don’t think either was even Christian for that matter, in any event their arguments are irrelevant to matters of Catholic belief.

As another great thinker, Einstein, once said, ‘God does not play dice with the universe’. You’re effectively saying He does, and what’s more that He has been every day of the last 2,000 years. Again, pointless to worship such an impotent, or at least unloving and uncaring, deity

The very process of canonisation (and a declaration of sainthood by a Pope would appear to fit the definition of infallibility) is predicated on the notion that God does indeed perform miracles in answer to prayers, directed through particular named souls, and does so for a specific purpose - to indicate those He wishes us to recognise as having lived lives of exceptional holiness.

If you doubt these vital points of the doctrine of Communion of the Saints, and continue to call yourself a faithful Catholic, then again you’re telling us that 2+2=5.

 

[Shin]

If anyone says that

* all miracles are impossible, and that therefore
* all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that
* miracles can never be known with certainty,
* nor can the divine origin of the christian religion be proved from them:

let him be anathema.

If anyone says that

* divine revelation cannot be made credible by external signs, and that therefore
* men and women ought to be moved to faith only by each one's internal experience or private inspiration:

let him be anathema.

• Vatican I, Canons on On Faith

Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God’s will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and

* first and foremost miracles and prophecies,
      o which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are
            + the most certain signs of revelation and are
            + suited to the understanding of all.

• Vatican I, On Faith

 

[Kuzushi]

I seriously can go around telling you lots of things, including in some cases what you should be thinking.

Don’t you mean what you THINK I should be thinking? We are not dealing with mathematics here. Your analogy is faulty and inappropriate. There are few immutable laws to religion and no faith is above the laws of logic. As I have said, I have never denied my Catholicism and I have a very strong background in it. As I live I simply find things that do not make sense to me so I question them.

Of course neither Jefferson nor Franklin were Catholic. I don’t think either was even Christian for that matter,

Next you will be condemning me and our forefathers to hell. Your judgmental attitude will prevent you from learning anything worthwhile. How sad for you.

As another great thinker, Einstein, once said, ‘God does not play dice with the universe’. You’re effectively saying He does, and what’s more that He has been every day of the last 2,000 years.

How do you get that from what I have written? I simply think God created the universe, put his hand on the world, and set it to spinning. Then he said “good luck.” I am not the first to think this way. For example, people have wondered for years why there is evil in the world if God exist.

I do not think you have really thought through your own beliefs. As I have said, ANY intervention by a supernatural being like God MUST be a miracle. I see you as being so superstitious that you border on being primitive. Why else would you be so convinced that “miracles” are happening all around you? Come on! Put down the magic beans and the fairy dust and address the issues. Don’t worry about what I do or do not believe, and take out the plank out of your own eye.