Saying grace?

[Kuzushi]

If anyone says that

* all miracles are impossible, and that therefore
* all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that
* miracles can never be known with certainty,
* nor can the divine origin of the christian religion be proved from them:

I never said miracles are “impossible” only that they do not seem to be occurring anymore. It is just an observation on my part. I am sure you took this quote out of context because I know the church is usually not irresponsible. Do you really think the church wants a bunch of fruity people running around claiming constant miracles? I will not name names, but look at late night Protestant televangelist saying God gave them and will give them money, cures for their hangnail, and grow hair on their bald heads.

I refer you to my above post when I suggested the responder put away the magician props.

 

[Shin]

The Nature of Actual Grace

Actual grace internally and directly enlightens the understanding and strengthens the will. (Sent. Certa.)

The Second Council of Orange (529) declared the following proposition to be heretical: Man, by the power of nature alone and without the enlightenment and inspiration of the Holy Ghost, can think and act as he ought to, and be saved, that is assent to the preaching of the Gospel.

… The teaching of the Church therefore is that man needs a power exceeding his natural capacity (i.e., a supernatural power), for the performance of salutary acts. The supernatural help of God in salutary activities extends to the two faculties of the soul, the reason and the will. Actual grace consists in a direct enlightenment of the understanding and a direct internal strengthening of the will.

Antedecedent Grace

** There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will. (De fide.)**

In this case God works alone “in us, without us” and produces spontaneous indeliberate acts of knowledge and will. This grace is called gratia praeveniens.

The Church’s teaching regarding the reality and necessity of consequent grace is expressed in the Decree of the Council of Trent. D. 797. The sinner returns to justification: “by freely assenting and co-operating with grace.”

• Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott

What do you think the sacraments are? What do you think all the private revelations approved for belief by the Church are? What do you think the sacramentals are?

And I have already showed you in the beginning of this discussion that it is dogma that God’s Providence interacts with our lives.

You talk like at best an uncatechized Catholic who has been simply involved in things without any real study or understanding of the faith, coming up with your own inventions of belief rather than looking to God for the answers through Revelation. At worst you sound like a heretic in sheep’s clothing.

 

[LilyM]

Next you will be condemning me and our forefathers to hell. Your judgmental attitude will prevent you from learning anything worthwhile. How sad for you.

I never said or thought such a thing.

How do you get that from what I have written? I simply think God created the universe, put his hand on the world, and set it to spinning. Then he said “good luck.” I am not the first to think this way. For example, people have wondered for years why there is evil in the world if God exist.

In other words He set it spinning, but never puts a hand out to guide it in its path afterwards, no matter where it is going or how wildly or uncontrollably it is spinning. Exactly a dice throw, as Einstein said. Exactly what God does NOT do.

God is love, God loves each of us, and a lover is involved in the life of their beloved in every possible way that they CAN be. Not that they always do what the beloved asks, since the beloved does not always know what is best for them, and since sometimes there are greater considerations than gratifying the momentary needs or wishes of the beloved.

But to suggest that a loving God could be uninvolved in our lives is anathema. Scripture teaches otherwise in many places. I find it interesting that you think miracles happened in the past but not nowadays - do you think God cares less? That we need His help or intervenion less (that we’ve grown better at looking after ourselves?) or what? What possible logical explanation would there be for God’s 2000-year-long silence?

I do not think you have really thought through your own beliefs. As I have said, ANY intervention by a supernatural being like God MUST be a miracle. I see you as being so superstitious that you border on being primitive. Why else would you be so convinced that “miracles” are happening all around you? Come on! Put down the magic beans and the fairy dust and address the issues. Don’t worry about what I do or do not believe, and take out the plank out of your own eye.

Not so. The laws of nature are themselves set up by God - THEY are His intervention, but are still ordinary rather than extraordinary events. The birth and death of each person is a divine intervention. But birth and death are ordinary rather than extraordinary things, and I wouldn’t really call them miraculous either. Nonetheless they are all God’s doing and should be a marvel (though not a miracle), and worthy of thanks, in our eyes.

I would really only call something a miracle which was EXTRAORDINARY - a suspension or contravention of the laws of nature. And the church defines miracles thus too. It won’t accept the ordinary birth of a child as nature intends as a miracle for any purpose. If, however, the child was born CONTRARY to the laws of nature - born (without medical or scientific intervention) to a man, or a 90-year-old woman, - THAT, I and the Church might call a miracle.

Just because God intervenes in ordinary rather than extraordinary ways doesn’t mean He is unworthy of thanks for using those ordinary means. My mother doesn’t perform a miracle when she washes my clothes for me, but I still thank her for it, and rightly so

And I particularly love your calling ME primitive and MY arguments ‘fairy dust and magic beans’ - you’re really doing some addressing of the issues there yourself with those particular ad hominems.

 

[Kuzushi]

Your quotations in regard to grace are all very interesting but I don’t see what they have to do with this discussion. When people say God did this that and the other thing for them that is NOT grace at work. Grace is some mysterious force designed to make one a better Christian. Besides, my eyes gloss over when people present verbatim quotations from specific texts as you did. I want to know what YOU think.

What do you think the sacraments are?

I guess that is where my arguments are headed. If, as I have shown, God does not do daily miracles maybe we as Catholics need to take another look at the sacraments.

 

[Kuzushi]

In other words He set it spinning, but never puts a hand out to guide it in its path afterwards, no matter where it is going or how wildly or uncontrollably it is spinning. Exactly a dice throw, as Einstein said. Exactly what God does NOT do.

But to suggest that a loving God could be uninvolved in our lives is anathema.

You just have not been paying attention. History is full of instances where God choose not to act. The first Christians were fed to lions, stoned, and even set on fire as human torches. Now we read those things in an aseptic environment where a picture of a saint with a halo is shown with the lions running around in the Roman coliseum. Can you imagine the horrible horrible death these unfortunate Christians endured? Being torn apart limb from bloody limb by a lion? I have been to many scenes of people maimed and killed in accidents, suicides, homicides, etc and I can tell you it ain’t pretty. I assure you these saints and prior Christian deaths looked NOTHING like it is depicted in “The Picture Book of Saints.” They suffered terribly.

Do you have children? There is absolutely no guarantee that they are safe. In a large city near me there was a recent car crash where one of the vehicles was hit so hard the gas tank broke and a fire erupted. The mother got out, but her unfortunate three year old son was in the back seat secured with a car seat. That poor kid was incinerated! Don’t try to tell me from your sanitized view from a keyboard that God gets involved. You may want to think that so you FEEL you and your families are safe, but wanting it does not make it so.

Now, do NOT go to the opposite extreme and say that I said God makes disaster occur. I am just saying that when it comes to day to day safety, financial, and health issues WE ARE ON OUR OWN. So stop with the inappropriate analogies, open your mind and try to understand what I am writing.

I also think you and everyone else in this forum should focus on the merits of my arguments instead of speculating on my “Catholicism.” Why are you trying to diffuse and distract the debate?

I find it interesting that you think miracles happened in the past but not nowadays - do you think God cares less? That we need His help or intervenion less (that we’ve grown better at looking after ourselves?) or what? What possible logical explanation would there be for God’s 2000-year-long silence?

I don’t think I ever said one way or the other if I think miracles did occur in the past. However, you have raised a point I have been thinking about for a long time. Maybe we as humans understand this whole religion thing all wrong. Maybe Goad has changed his mind. He supposedly sent floods and destroyed entire cities in the past. Maybe something beyond our understanding has changed in heaven itself. I don’t know.

I would really only call something a miracle which was EXTRAORDINARY - a suspension or contravention of the laws of nature. And the church defines miracles thus too.

I have already said I reject that definition as too limited. What would you call ANY intervention by a supernatural power like God in the affairs of men? What term do you prefer? For example, If God helps one get a job he would not normally get through shifting the resume to the top of the heap when the secretary “drops” the stack or by whispering in the ear of the personnel manger “he is the one” WHAT pray tell do you call that? If something occurs that would not normally have been done then God has intervened and THAT is a miracle.

And I particularly love your calling ME primitive and MY arguments ‘fairy dust and magic beans’ - you’re really doing some addressing of the issues there yourself with those particular ad hominems

Maybe that was a tad harsh, but I grow tired of people going around saying “oh look what God has done-he blessed me with a” fill in the blank, ie new job, money, car, spouse, dog. It is fully possible that this “blessing” is something that would have happened any way and God had ABSOLUTLY nothing to do with it either way. Clearly these people want these things and they want to know there is a loving and caring God dispensing these things to them. Wanting it just doesn’t make it so. That is just the way it is.

It goes back to my original question. If you thank God for giving you the food on your table do you also blame him when the refrigerator is bear? One must be logical and consistent.