Saying the Same Things in Different Ways

[Marie_Gregg]

Hey, All,

I haven’t been around here very long, and I’m quite eager to learn more about Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestant groups other than my own, but I’m wondering something: Is a lot of this just semantics? I’ve been reading through a lot of the threads without commenting, and it seems like we’ve all got the same ideas, to a certain extent, but just express them in different ways. For example, when I read about the Catholic idea of infused righteousness, that reads to me to be very similar to John Wesley’s thoughts on the process of sanctification.

Are our disagreements exaggerated by our word choices?

Second question, related to the first:

Are tensions higher between Catholics/Orthodox and certain Protestant groups? That probably sounds incredibly ignorant, but I genuinely don’t know. (For example, I went to college with a guy who seemed convinced that I wasn’t really a Christian because I wasn’t of the Reformed variety. Within Protestantism, there’s a lot of friction between those who are Reformed and those who aren’t).

 

[Trishie]

Hi Marie,

This is what the Catholic Church believes about faith and good works, about grace
from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

Catholic Answers

saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

oce.catholic.com/index.php?search=justification&fulltext=Search

Comparisons of Catholic and Protestant, Catholic Encyclopedia

newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

This site provides a number of links

silk.net/RelEd/grace.htm

 

[JRKH]

Hey, All,

I haven’t been around here very long, and I’m quite eager to learn more about Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestant groups other than my own, but I’m wondering something: Is a lot of this just semantics? I’ve been reading through a lot of the threads without commenting, and it seems like we’ve all got the same ideas, to a certain extent, but just express them in different ways. For example, when I read about the Catholic idea of infused righteousness, that reads to me to be very similar to John Wesley’s thoughts on the process of sanctification.

Are our disagreements exaggerated by our word choices?

First of all - Welcome to the forums. It is my belief that this is one of the finest places to learn about the faith. In other words, you’ve hit a gold mine here…

As regards terminology - semantics - word choices - Yes I think that a certain, even considerable, amount of misunderstanding arises from this. I have found many times - often after lengthy discussion - that I and my discussion mate have been talking past each other because we “hear” different things while using the same term or phrase. It becomes frustrating for both of us.

Second question, related to the first:

Are tensions higher between Catholics/Orthodox and certain Protestant groups? That probably sounds incredibly ignorant, but I genuinely don’t know. (For example, I went to college with a guy who seemed convinced that I wasn’t really a Christian because I wasn’t of the Reformed variety. Within Protestantism, there’s a lot of friction between those who are Reformed and those who aren’t).

I think that tensions ARE higher between certain groups. You mention that a guy doesn’t think you are “really Christian” because you are not of the “Reformed variety” We have had people refer to the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon and the Pope called the Anti-Christ. We have had people (and groups) call us Idolaters and target Catholics specifically for “conversion to Christ”.
Yea - I’d have to say that there are higher tensions between Catholics and certain groups - or at least certain teachings.

Peace
James

 

[fred_conty]

Catholics do have a way of saying things and their Catholic words.
Protestants have a way of saying things and their Protestant words.
And I think that they do tend to speak past one another for this reason.
We say that works are necessary for salvation.
They say that works follow faith to be a real faith without which no salvation.
Sanctification vs justification
Both seek God and love the Bible and have good works.

The one big difference is in the Sunday Service.
Their service is bible reading, singing of hymns, and the preaching.
Our service is that, plus the Sacrifice and Last Supper of Jesus made present.
Their nickname is Bible, ours is Bible and worship.

Just a thought.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hey, All,

I haven’t been around here very long, and I’m quite eager to learn more about Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestant groups other than my own, but I’m wondering something: Is a lot of this just semantics? I’ve been reading through a lot of the threads without commenting, and it seems like we’ve all got the same ideas, to a certain extent, but just express them in different ways. For example, when I read about the Catholic idea of infused righteousness, that reads to me to be very similar to John Wesley’s thoughts on the process of sanctification.

Are our disagreements exaggerated by our word choices?

Second question, related to the first:

Are tensions higher between Catholics/Orthodox and certain Protestant groups? That probably sounds incredibly ignorant, but I genuinely don’t know. (For example, I went to college with a guy who seemed convinced that I wasn’t really a Christian because I wasn’t of the Reformed variety. Within Protestantism, there’s a lot of friction between those who are Reformed and those who aren’t).

I am a student of what is called General Semantics and I believe you are saying it is just words. Consider this. General Semantics states that “the map is not the territory”…We take in information with vision, hearing, tasting, sensing etc and think in pictures and express in words.
Our words formulate our map.

The world is what it is and in our heads we have maps. Your map of Christianity as expressed by words is different based on the words. Yes…when you consider this…

Justification is not a one time event but an ongoing process ending in Sanctification.

You say Justification is a one time event followed by Sanctification ending in glorification.

Just words…but if you say Justification is a one time event, when does it occur? How does it happen? Are you always justified?

You understand that it is just words however the words mean everything…

Consider that you follow Wesley…well where did he come from…well from the Anglican body…and they came from where?

Consider Justification by Faith and then consider this one word “alone”…now that is only one word however it is the word that caused and launched the Protestant thought that you now find yourself in.

Consider this word “worship” because it means something different to me than it means to someone elses leads to the accusation that Catholic’s worship Mary and we don’t. Because someone defines worship in their “map of christianity” they equate it with what they believe to be worship.

Words…consider Transubstantiation…just a word

Consider “proceeds from the father and the son” just words

Are there tensions, depends on the individual…

 

[pablope]

Hey, All,

I haven’t been around here very long, and I’m quite eager to learn more about Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestant groups other than my own, but I’m wondering something: Is a lot of this just semantics? I’ve been reading through a lot of the threads without commenting, and it seems like we’ve all got the same ideas, to a certain extent, but just express them in different ways. For example, when I read about the Catholic idea of infused righteousness, that reads to me to be very similar to John Wesley’s thoughts on the process of sanctification.

Are our disagreements exaggerated by our word choices?

Second question, related to the first:

Are tensions higher between Catholics/Orthodox and certain Protestant groups? That probably sounds incredibly ignorant, but I genuinely don’t know. (For example, I went to college with a guy who seemed convinced that I wasn’t really a Christian because I wasn’t of the Reformed variety. Within Protestantism, there’s a lot of friction between those who are Reformed and those who aren’t).

This may help you understand what each side understands…chnetwork.org/resources/coming-home-journals/

I would suggest start with the Journal about Salvation and sanctification.

God bless…and peace…

 

[Marie_Gregg]

I am a student of what is called General Semantics and I believe you are saying it is just words. Consider this. General Semantics states that “the map is not the territory”…We take in information with vision, hearing, tasting, sensing etc and think in pictures and express in words.
Our words formulate our map.

The world is what it is and in our heads we have maps. Your map of Christianity as expressed by words is different based on the words. Yes…when you consider this…

Justification is not a one time event but an ongoing process ending in Sanctification.

You say Justification is a one time event followed by Sanctification ending in glorification.

Just words…but if you say Justification is a one time event, when does it occur? How does it happen? Are you always justified?

You understand that it is just words however the words mean everything…

Consider that you follow Wesley…well where did he come from…well from the Anglican body…and they came from where?

Consider Justification by Faith and then consider this one word “alone”…now that is only one word however it is the word that caused and launched the Protestant thought that you now find yourself in.

Consider this word “worship” because it means something different to me than it means to someone elses leads to the accusation that Catholic’s worship Mary and we don’t. Because someone defines worship in their “map of christianity” they equate it with what they believe to be worship.

Words…consider Transubstantiation…just a word

Consider “proceeds from the father and the son” just words

Are there tensions, depends on the individual…

That was a really, really thought provoking post, Coptic.

Sometimes I think that I shouldn’t post on boards like these, because I never quite get across what it is that I’m thinking. Words are powerful, as you allude to. I totally agree with that. I just wonder if the different “sides” use varying terms to describe the same things. Maybe, maybe not. I’ll have to do some pondering on what you wrote.

Two quick thoughts:

In Wesleyan-Arminianism, the theological system to which I ascribe, it’s probably not totally correct to see justification as a one time event, because apostasy is a reality. I’m not an OSAS person, so that’s probably why I see so much similarity between Catholic teaching on justification and Wesley’s teaching on justification and sanctification.

Transubsatiation…well, I didn’t grow up in a community that took part in Communion very often, which I think is very sad. While I do think it can become rote, I love that moment in the service when everyone stops and marvels again at the sacrifice of Christ. I believe that Christ is present, but how is a holy mystery to me.

 

[Tony888]

Are our disagreements exaggerated by our word choices?

Yes, people are choosing to focus on the differences as being all important, rather than our common ground. It is petty human nature.
What would we post on if we really focused on Christ’s top commandments
- Loving God with all our heart and soul
- Loving our neighbor as yourself

Are tensions higher between Catholics/Orthodox and certain Protestant groups? That probably sounds incredibly ignorant, but I genuinely don’t know. (For example, I went to college with a guy who seemed convinced that I wasn’t really a Christian because I wasn’t of the Reformed variety. Within Protestantism, there’s a lot of friction between those who are Reformed and those who aren’t).

Are tensions higher than when? There used to be much more real violence between Catholics and Protestants.

The Reformed variety (Calvinists) are defining Christianity to exclude others
Any Christian who thinks God has already decided who is saved or damned scares me.

 

[CopticChristian]

That was a really, really thought provoking post, Coptic.

Sometimes I think that I shouldn’t post on boards like these, because I never quite get across what it is that I’m thinking. Words are powerful, as you allude to. I totally agree with that. I just wonder if the different “sides” use varying terms to describe the same things. Maybe, maybe not. I’ll have to do some pondering on what you wrote.
Two quick thoughts:

In Wesleyan-Arminianism, the theological system to which I ascribe, it’s probably not totally correct to see justification as a one time event, because apostasy is a reality. I’m not an OSAS person, so that’s probably why I see so much similarity between Catholic teaching on justification and Wesley’s teaching on justification and sanctification.

Transubsatiation…well, I didn’t grow up in a community that took part in Communion very often, which I think is very sad. While I do think it can become rote, I** love that moment in the service when everyone stops and marvels again at the sacrifice of Christ. I believe that Christ is present, but how is a holy mystery to me**.

Many people do not grasp what you have grasped. The world is the world. The kingdom is the kingdom. We use words to explain to others what it is we percieve both to be. We are transmitting what our maps are.

Your map of Wesleyan thought is your understanding and to define it that way clarifies all further thought.

I would say Transubstantiation signifies what you marvel at and more. One word can convey a compete thought and understanding. I appreciate that you see what I was driving at.

It is also to see that the post, saying the same thing in different ways is consistent with these thoughts as well.

 

[JonNC]

Catholics do have a way of saying things and their Catholic words.
Protestants have a way of saying things and their Protestant words.
And I think that they do tend to speak past one another for this reason.
We say that works are necessary for salvation.
They say that works follow faith to be a real faith without which no salvation.
Sanctification vs justification
Both seek God and love the Bible and have good works.

The one big difference is in the Sunday Service.
Their service is bible reading, singing of hymns, and the preaching.
Our service is that, plus the Sacrifice and Last Supper of Jesus made present.
Their nickname is Bible, ours is Bible and worship.

Just a thought.

Then there are Lutherans who in some ways blur the line. On the bolded part, Fred, our divine service also includes the Sacrament of the Altar.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I am a student of what is called General Semantics and I believe you are saying it is just words. Consider this. General Semantics states that “the map is not the territory”…We take in information with vision, hearing, tasting, sensing etc and think in pictures and express in words.
Our words formulate our map.

The world is what it is and in our heads we have maps. Your map of Christianity as expressed by words is different based on the words. Yes…when you consider this…

Justification is not a one time event but an ongoing process ending in Sanctification.

You say Justification is a one time event followed by Sanctification ending in glorification.

Just words…but if you say Justification is a one time event, when does it occur? How does it happen? Are you always justified?

You understand that it is just words however the words mean everything…

Consider that you follow Wesley…well where did he come from…well from the Anglican body…and they came from where?

Consider Justification by Faith and then consider this one word “alone”…now that is only one word however it is the word that caused and launched the Protestant thought that you now find yourself in.

Consider this word “worship” because it means something different to me than it means to someone elses leads to the accusation that Catholic’s worship Mary and we don’t. Because someone defines worship in their “map of christianity” they equate it with what they believe to be worship.

Words…consider Transubstantiation…just a word

Consider “proceeds from the father and the son” just words

Are there tensions, depends on the individual…

Coptic,
Even though I don’t always agree with you, many times I find your posts very well thought out. This is a great example.

Jon

 

[Contarini]

Hey, All,

I haven’t been around here very long, and I’m quite eager to learn more about Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestant groups other than my own, but I’m wondering something: Is a lot of this just semantics? I’ve been reading through a lot of the threads without commenting, and it seems like we’ve all got the same ideas, to a certain extent, but just express them in different ways. For example, when I read about the Catholic idea of infused righteousness, that reads to me to be very similar to John Wesley’s thoughts on the process of sanctification.

Well, it is. But that’s because Wesley’s soteriology is very close to Catholicism–Wesleyans differ from other Protestants on this point.

Now the differences even between a Lutheran or a Baptist and a Catholic may be smaller than people on both sides think. But Wesley differed pretty sharply from classical Protestant soteriology on this point (not in believing in sanctification, but in making ongoing sanctification a direct cause of one’s final acceptance by God and in denying the Reformed doctrine of the perseverance of the regenerate).

Are our disagreements exaggerated by our word choices?

Sometimes, yes. Less often they are concealed by our word choices. But often the different word choices really do reflect theological differences.

In the case of Wesleyanism, what you have is a partially re-Catholicized soteriology masked by the use of evangelical Protestant terminology derived from Lutheran/Reformed versions of Protestantism. So, for instance, a Wesleyan would never speak about meriting salvation–but when I at least (coming from a Wesleyan theological background) actually understood what Trent meant by “merit,” I realized that I wasn’t as opposed to the idea as I had thought. I was helped in this by my Reformed brothers and sisters, who insisted that we Wesleyans were really half way to Rome. Turned out they were right–I just don’t think that’s a bad thing!

Wesleyans do differ to some extent from Catholicism on soteriology, obviously, and more substantively on other points, like ecclesiology.

Are tensions higher between Catholics/Orthodox and certain Protestant groups? That probably sounds incredibly ignorant, but I genuinely don’t know. (For example, I went to college with a guy who seemed convinced that I wasn’t really a Christian because I wasn’t of the Reformed variety. Within Protestantism, there’s a lot of friction between those who are Reformed and those who aren’t).

Some Protestants are certainly more “anti-Catholic” than others, if that’s what you are asking. And some versions of anti-Catholic polemic are more substantive than others. The Reformed, who actually have a coherent alternative theology, are typically the most substantive in their criticisms. Conservative Wesleyans are, in my experience, more likely to rely on “black legend” hype and stories about tunnels underneath convents full of the corpses of babies. Fulton Sheen’s statement about Protestants hating what we think the Church is but not what it really is applies to Wesleyans more than most other Protestants, I think.

Edwin

 

[Marie_Gregg]

I was helped in this by my Reformed brothers and sisters, who insisted that we Wesleyans were really half way to Rome. Turned out they were right–I just don’t think that’s a bad thing!

…

Conservative Wesleyans are, in my experience, more likely to rely on “black legend” hype and stories about tunnels underneath convents full of the corpses of babies. Fulton Sheen’s statement about Protestants hating what we think the Church is but not what it really is applies to Wesleyans more than most other Protestants, I think.

Edwin

LOL to the first! I agree with you.

As to the second, I’m baffled at anyone hating the Catholic Church, but even more baffled by stories of tunnels and infant corpses. Never in my life have I heard of such things! I think I’ll do some digging amongst the members of my congregation and see if they think that way. (I wasn’t raised in a Wesleyan-Arminian system, by the way. My husband and I became part of the Church of the Nazarene two years ago).

 

[CopticChristian]

LOL to the first! I agree with you.

As to the second, I’m baffled at anyone hating the Catholic Church, but even more baffled by stories of tunnels and infant corpses. Never in my life have I heard of such things! I think I’ll do some digging amongst the members of my congregation and see if they think that way. (I wasn’t raised in a Wesleyan-Arminian system, by the way. My husband and I became part of the Church of the Nazarene two years ago).

You may find that you have much in common with John Wesley. Methodists sprang from the Anglican community, which gave rise to the holiness movement, which gave rise to the Church of the Nazarene and other communities. You may find that as you study the history of CON, you will find common elements with the Methodists and John Wesley…

 

[Contarini]

LOL to the first! I agree with you.

As to the second, I’m baffled at anyone hating the Catholic Church, but even more baffled by stories of tunnels and infant corpses. Never in my life have I heard of such things! I think I’ll do some digging amongst the members of my congregation and see if they think that way. (I wasn’t raised in a Wesleyan-Arminian system, by the way. My husband and I became part of the Church of the Nazarene two years ago).

Well, I was brought up to think of Nazarenes as worldly compromisers.

I don’t mean that all Holiness folks believe such stories, but that when they are anti-Catholic (which the really conservative ones, like most conservative Protestants, generally are) their anti-Catholicism tends to rest more on scandal and misperception than on substantive theology. Of course, substantive theology has never really been the Wesleyan strong suit. There’s a new brand of Wesleyan theologians (largely Nazarenes) who are trying to change this, but I have some problems with their project–that’s another issue though, and tangential to this thread. . . .

Edwin

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, it is. But that’s because Wesley’s soteriology is very close to Catholicism–Wesleyans differ from other Protestants on this point.

Now the differences even between a Lutheran or a Baptist and a Catholic may be smaller than people on both sides think. But Wesley differed pretty sharply from classical Protestant soteriology on this point (not in believing in sanctification, but in making ongoing sanctification a direct cause of one’s final acceptance by God and in denying the Reformed doctrine of the perseverance of the regenerate).

Sometimes, yes. Less often they are concealed by our word choices. But often the different word choices really do reflect theological differences.

In the case of Wesleyanism, what you have is a partially re-Catholicized soteriology masked by the use of evangelical Protestant terminology derived from Lutheran/Reformed versions of Protestantism. So, for instance, a Wesleyan would never speak about meriting salvation–but when I at least (coming from a Wesleyan theological background) actually understood what Trent meant by “merit,” I realized that I wasn’t as opposed to the idea as I had thought. I was helped in this by my Reformed brothers and sisters, who insisted that we Wesleyans were really half way to Rome. Turned out they were right–I just don’t think that’s a bad thing!

Wesleyans do differ to some extent from Catholicism on soteriology, obviously, and more substantively on other points, like ecclesiology.

Some Protestants are certainly more “anti-Catholic” than others, if that’s what you are asking. And some versions of anti-Catholic polemic are more substantive than others. The Reformed, who actually have a coherent alternative theology, are typically the most substantive in their criticisms. Conservative Wesleyans are, in my experience, more likely to rely on “black legend” hype and stories about tunnels underneath convents full of the corpses of babies. Fulton Sheen’s statement about Protestants hating what we think the Church is but not what it really is applies to Wesleyans more than most other Protestants, I think.

Edwin

It should come as not surprise that the thoughts of the Catholic Priests Knox, Zwingli, Luther and the Catholic Lawyer would infect the Anglican community and filter down to the Methodist. It could be said in consideration that Wesleyans are half way to Rome…as you say that they are half way there as a result of their Catholic forefathers.

 

[rinnie]

Hey, All,

I haven’t been around here very long, and I’m quite eager to learn more about Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestant groups other than my own, but I’m wondering something: Is a lot of this just semantics? I’ve been reading through a lot of the threads without commenting, and it seems like we’ve all got the same ideas, to a certain extent, but just express them in different ways. For example, when I read about the Catholic idea of infused righteousness, that reads to me to be very similar to John Wesley’s thoughts on the process of sanctification.

Are our disagreements exaggerated by our word choices?

Second question, related to the first:

Are tensions higher between Catholics/Orthodox and certain Protestant groups? That probably sounds incredibly ignorant, but I genuinely don’t know. (For example, I went to college with a guy who seemed convinced that I wasn’t really a Christian because I wasn’t of the Reformed variety. Within Protestantism, there’s a lot of friction between those who are Reformed and those who aren’t).

It does sound like that at first. But then when you investigate the difference in our beliefs that are quite shocking.

The biggest thing is the Sacraments. They are very important to the RCC. You must have them.

Protestants do not believe that Jesus gave the Priest authority to forgive our sins.

They do not believe the Eucharist is the living Christ.

There is just so much that they disagree with.

One thing you will see with the Catholic faith is we are taught to never judge another. God will judge us on the last day. The Church is where you will find forgiveness of sins, the living body and blood of Christ, anointing of the sick, last rites, etc.

We are here to serve others and love one another not judge one another. Although on this site when we disagree it can come off that way at times.

We belive the Church is the pIlar of all truth, and we do not have the power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture. All of this you will find in the bible.

That is just a FEW of our BIG differences.

 

[CopticChristian]

It does sound like that at first. But then when you investigate the difference in our beliefs that are quite shocking.

The biggest thing is the Sacraments. They are very important to the RCC. You must have them.

Protestants do not believe that Jesus gave the Priest authority to forgive our sins.

They do not believe the Eucharist is the living Christ.

There is just so much that they disagree with.

One thing you will see with the Catholic faith is we are taught to never judge another. God will judge us on the last day. The Church is where you will find forgiveness of sins, the living body and blood of Christ, anointing of the sick, last rites, etc.

We are here to serve others and love one another not judge one another. Although on this site when we disagree it can come off that way at times.

We belive the Church is the pIlar of all truth, and we do not have the power of the Holy Spirit to define scripture. All of this you will find in the bible.

That is just a FEW of our BIG differences.

This is all true. In keeping with the spirit of the OP, words, the word “Worship” is central to the understanding of the RCC…Worship is what unites and divides. We all believe in that one word “Worship”. The RCC defines “Worship” as the Eucharist and the Mass…we worship God alone. All that are called christian believe in worship of God alone and that one word is saying the same thing in different ways…