Saying "You" instead of "Thou" in Prayer

[Confiteor_Deo]

I am curious as to why “you” has replaced “thou” in most modern prayers. In nearly all of the old prayer books that I read, they always use “thou” in prayer instead of “you” unless the prayer is focused on multiple people. In the modern prayer books, “thou” is nearly non existent except in the Pater Noster or Ave María, and the same goes for the English Novus Ordo. Why did this change?

I know that “you” was used in the old days as well, but “thou” seems to have been a lot more popular then than it is now.

Thank you.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

“Thou” is a proper part of the English language. It’s the familiar of “you,” like “tu” is the familiar of “usted” in Spanish or “du” is the familiar of “Sie” in German. English-speaking people just don’t use the familiar any longer, though. It requires a different verb form, like “Thou sayeth” instead of “You say.” People have just gotten too lazy to speak like that any longer, so they let “you” cover everything. I guess the Spanish-speakers and the German-speakers aren’t quite as lazy yet!

 

[zamyrabyrd]

I am curious as to why “you” has replaced “thou” in most modern prayers. In nearly all of the old prayer books that I read, they always use “thou” in prayer instead of “you” unless the prayer is focused on multiple people. In the modern prayer books, “thou” is nearly non existent except in the Pater Noster or Ave María, and the same goes for the English Novus Ordo. Why did this change?

I know that “you” was used in the old days as well, but “thou” seems to have been a lot more popular then than it is now.

Thank you.

Well, just offhand,* thou, thy, thine* are singular while you, your, yours are plural.
I like “thy” as it seems more intimate and polite to me.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Some may prefer the formality of “thy” and “thou,” but then again we don’t speak Elizabethan English anymore, and we are addressing our Father.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Well, just offhand,* thou, thy, thine* are singular while you, your, yours are plural.
I like “thy” as it seems more intimate and polite to me.

“You” can be singular. If one person gets up to leave my classroom, I can say, “Where are you going?” A mom could say to her one son, “Is this yours?” And “thy” can be plural. A man speaking to a crowd could say, “Thy” sins will be counted against thee!"

I’m sure if you want to use “thy” in addressing God, he won’t mind a bit. He will just be glad to hear from you.

 

[peter26]

Its a matter of taste really. I find that using Elizabethan English helps to raise my mind to Heavenly things by using more beautiful and elaborate language, some people use Latin in the same way. Sometimes, modern language just doesn’t cut it. The Our Father in modern language sounds especially bad.

 

[DaveBj]

The English language has changed since the King James and Douai-Rheims Bibles were translated. Jesus did not use unusual language when he prayed, and it is not expected that we should use unusual language. You’re talking to your heavenly Father; talk to him like you’d talk to your earthly father. (Assuming that you have a respectful relationship with your earthly father.)

 

[peter26]

The Our Father in traditional form has been approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship as the form to be used at Mass. Clearly, that makes it a superior form of the prayer. And Jesus didn’t use unusual language? How do you know? Were you there?

 

[DaveBj]

The Our Father in traditional form has been approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship as the form to be used at Mass. Clearly, that makes it a superior form of the prayer. And Jesus didn’t use unusual language? How do you know? Were you there?

Linguistic analysis. In the translations that we have (starting with the koine Greek of the Gospels), compare the language that Jesus used in prayer with the language that He used when talking to other people. No real difference in style.

 

[peter26]

Rightly, then, the liturgy is considered as an exercise of the priestly office of Jesus Christ. In the liturgy the sanctification of the man is signified by signs perceptible to the senses, and is effected in a way which corresponds with each of these signs; in the liturgy the whole public worship is performed by the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, that is, by the Head and His members.

From this it follows that every liturgical celebration, because it is an action of Christ the priest and of His Body which is the Church, is a sacred action surpassing all others; no other action of the Church can equal its efficacy by the same title and to the same degree.

SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM Paragraph 7

I emphasise " the sanctification of the man is signified by signs perceptible to the senses". This is a similar concept to what I was saying. “I find that using Elizabethan English helps to raise my mind to Heavenly things by using more beautiful and elaborate language, some people use Latin in the same way.” And if its good enough for Mass, its good enough for private devotion to. But my all means, use whatever prayers you wish. Like I said to begin with, its a matter of taste.

 

[DaveBj]

I’m not saying that Elizabethan language should not be used in prayer; all I’m saying is that it is not necessary. But if “thee/thou/thy” is what cranks your tractor, feel free to pray as you want. One thing, tho – if you’re going to do it in public, make sure you know the grammatical rules; otherwise you look silly.

(And before anyone takes umbrage, I’m using the generic “you;” I’m not talking to anyone in particular.)

 

[zamyrabyrd]

“You” can be singular. If one person gets up to leave my classroom, I can say, “Where are you going?” A mom could say to her one son, “Is this yours?” And “thy” can be plural. A man speaking to a crowd could say, “Thy” sins will be counted against thee!"
I’m sure if you want to use “thy” in addressing God, he won’t mind a bit. He will just be glad to hear from you.

I wasn’t referring to “you” in modern usage. Of course, it can be singular or plural because we don’t have any other word, except in the US South where they say “you all” for plural.

Looks like there was a strange shift in the perception of you as more polite, perhaps from using plural for the Royal We:

“Thou”, “thee”, “thine” and “thy” are pronouns that have dropped out of the main dialects of Modern English. During the period of Early Modern English (~1470-1700), they formed the Second Person Singular of the language, and were standardized by the time of the King James Bible…
You may have been told that “thou” and “thee” were for familiar use, and “you” and “ye” were formal. This was not true originally, but it was true for about two centuries, roughly 1450-1650, including Shakespeare’s time. The previously plural “you” was used in the singular to signify politeness and respect, which left “thou” and “thee” for all the other singular uses, ranging from endearing intimacy to bitter rudeness. Eventually, the politer “you” drove out nearly all uses of “thee” and “thou”; they survived mostly in poetry and religion.

alt-usage-english.org/pronoun_paradigms.html

 

[Neofight]

The Our Father in traditional form has been approved by the Congregation for Divine Worship as the form to be used at Mass. Clearly, that makes it a superior form of the prayer. And Jesus didn’t use unusual language? How do you know? Were you there?

Superior form of prayer? I think not…ironically, given the topic, that clearly was a poor choice of words, which you graciously qualified and clarified in a subsequent post… Somehow I don’t think that prayers received by the Saints or the Holy Trinity are reviewed by an Army of English teachers angels grading them with red pens, and then that consideration is based on the grade given

 

[peter26]

Prayer is as much about the effect it has on you as the effect you hope it will have for you. That’s why traditional prayers have been handed down for centuries and are superior to something you dream up on the back of an envelope.

 

[fred_conty]

I just feel it is more personal to use “you”. “Thou” is foreign to me and makes me think of God as distant. “You” seems to be more loving.

I guess it is a matter of personal choice.

“Hail Mary full of grace… blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus”. That puts Mary before me, and not in the clouds.

 

[peter26]

It is a matter of taste and its not my desire to argue with anyone about this. We’re pretty traditional at my parish. Some people here would feel like its Heaven and some would hate it.

Peace

 

[eazyduzit]

Well, just offhand,* thou, thy, thine* are singular while you, your, yours are plural.
I like “thy” as it seems more intimate and polite to me.

“You” can be singular or plural. “Ye” and “thee” are plural. In Texas “y’all” is singular while
“all y’all” is plural.

 

[JerryZ]

Well, just offhand,* thou, thy, thine* are singular while you, your, yours are plural.
I like “thy” as it seems more intimate and polite to me.

So the question from the poster is why do we say “You” instead “Thou” both are indicative Pronouns.
You counter that you prefer to use “Thy” which is also a pronoun but let’s see it’s definition:

Thy

1. the possessive case of thou (used as an attributive adjective before a noun beginning with a consonant sound):
   thy table.

Compare to what “Thou” means:

Thou
pronoun, singular, nominative thou; possessive thy or thine; objective thee; plural, nominative you or ye; possessive your or yours; objective you or ye.

1. Archaic except in some elevated or ecclesiastical prose. the personal pronoun of the second person singular in the nominative case (used to denote the person or thing addressed):
   Thou shalt not kill.

1. (used by the Friends) a familiar form of address of the second person singular.
   verb (used with object)

1. to address as “thou.”.
   verb (used without object)
2. to use “thou” in discourse.

Notice the distinction, back in the day “You” was ONLY used for the plural OR as formal way of addressing a singular person, for example, someone with more rank than you.
Instead and again back in the day, people referred or spoke to GOD with the “Thou” form, that was mainly used amongst FRIENDS.
That should tell you something important, me thinks.

Now days in present English usage at least, there is no difference in the pronoun form, used to address your friends or your boss.
In fact and this is something that is preponderant in US only when writing to someone people address the recipient with his given name directly. This is a serious breach of etiquette in most European countries as unless you are a personal friend of the person you are writing to, you NEVER use his given name to address him/her in correspondence.

…

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I wasn’t referring to “you” in modern usage. Of course, it can be singular or plural because we don’t have any other word, except in the US South where they say “you all” for plural.

Looks like there was a strange shift in the perception of you as more polite, perhaps from using plural for the Royal We:

“Thou”, “thee”, “thine” and “thy” are pronouns that have dropped out of the main dialects of Modern English. During the period of Early Modern English (~1470-1700), they formed the Second Person Singular of the language, and were standardized by the time of the King James Bible…
You may have been told that “thou” and “thee” were for familiar use, and “you” and “ye” were formal. This was not true originally, but it was true for about two centuries, roughly 1450-1650, including Shakespeare’s time. The previously plural “you” was used in the singular to signify politeness and respect, which left “thou” and “thee” for all the other singular uses, ranging from endearing intimacy to bitter rudeness. Eventually, the politer “you” drove out nearly all uses of “thee” and “thou”; they survived mostly in poetry and religion.

alt-usage-english.org/pronoun_paradigms.html

Okay. Thank you.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

Thank you to all of have responded thus far.

However, I still don’t see why the use of “thou” has fallen out of usage recently. It is archaic and we don’t use it anymore in daily speech, but that was the case in the 1920’s too, but they still used ‘thou’ more often in prayers. What caused the majority of Catholics’ tastes to change to where ‘you’ became the norm? It seems that the use of ‘thou’ was commonplace for centuries until just recently.

I learned that the use of thou is a more familiar term than ‘you’ and is less formal, which led people to start using it in prayers to Our Lord & His saints. I, personally, always like to use ‘thou’ even when I am praying my own made up prayers.