Scandal: which side is worse?

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SeekerJen

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So after reading the new cohabitation thread (where it is asserted by a poster that it is sinful for an unmarried brother and sister to live together because others will assume scandal), I started wondering. I know that when people see my husband and me, childless after 4 years of Catholic matrimony, they assume that we are using contraception, which is very much untrue. In fact, to rid others of that assumption we would likely have to resort to immoral means (pregnancy through IVF, etc.).

So which is worse: the one who, through no fault of his or her own, lives in what may be construed as scandal, or the one who automatically assumes scandal, even when there may be none? Or are they equal? Please understand, I do not ask this in a sarcastic or facetious manner. I sometimes wonder if I should leave the Church because our infertile marriage does present scandal.
 
Hello Seeker Jen,

Where is this cohabitation thread you are reffering to? Brother and sister living together a scandal? What? :confused:

I would like to see this one.
 
Yes I know what you are saying. I have said it before and i will say it again. Read the catechism and read what the definition of scandal is. It means to intentionally lead someone to sin. Because ppl might gossip about you is that really scandal? C’mon ppl. If a person gets remarried before an annullment, they will be told to live like brother and sister. Same thing! They arent told to live in separate households as to not cause scandal.

To be honest my family gossips about me and my dh all the time because of the way something looks, and to hell with them! I am not worried about “Scandal”. Scandal does not mean to look like you are sinning. Thats ridiculous.
 
marybee,:eek:
“and to hell with them”?
tisk tisk to send people to hell that engage in whatever they engage in.

I am sorry to hear that you have people in your family that do this to you and your DH though.

Know you are not alone. 😉
 
Hellisreal said:
marybee,:eek:
“and to hell with them”?
tisk tisk to send people to hell that engage in whatever they engage in.

I am sorry to hear that you have people in your family that do this to you and your DH though.

Know you are not alone. 😉
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yeah didn’t mean that in a literal sense, just kinda like
“whatever you want a think is fine, but its none of your business anyway” I don’t feel the need to explain to people things that are none of their business.:eek:
 
Thanks for pointing out the other thread SJ.

🙂

I had a hard time believing what I was reading over there.😦
 
If you’re not doing anything wrong, you’re not doing anything wrong; and if people choose to assume the worst or ugliest explanation, the problem isn’t with you but with them. Saying otherwise is like a peeping tom telling off the people he’s watching undress for making him look.

It may be best to try to avoid giving people a reason to jump to conclusions like that when possible, but I don’t see how the onus could really be on the innocent. You can’t get everybody’s mind out of the gutter.
 
Mirdath said:
If you’re not doing anything wrong, you’re not doing anything wrong; and if people choose to assume the worst or ugliest explanation, the problem isn’t with you but with them. Saying otherwise is like a peeping tom telling off the people he’s watching undress for making him look.

It may be best to try to avoid giving people a reason to jump to conclusions like that when possible, but I don’t see how the onus could really be on the innocent. You can’t get everybody’s mind out of the gutter.
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Well, no, there are times when you’re supposed to take others’ perceptions into account. For example, a priest might get called to the local brothel to administer the Sacrament to a dying prostitute. If so, he must go. But if, on leaving, he bumps into a parishioner on the sidewalk who looks shocked to see him leaving a brothel, he has an obligation to explain what he was doing. Because true scandal – leading others, either directly or by example, into sin (as opposed to the other “scandal” – creating food for gossip-mongers) – is itself a sin, the priest owes a duty to his parishioner to remove the scandal (we will finish this sentence if it kills us), thus removing the temptation to the parishioner to sin.
 
Godfollower said:
Well, no, there are times when you’re supposed to take others’ perceptions into account. For example, a priest might get called to the local brothel to administer the Sacrament to a dying prostitute. If so, he must go. But if, on leaving, he bumps into a parishioner on the sidewalk who looks shocked to see him leaving a brothel, he has an obligation to explain what he was doing. Because true scandal – leading others, either directly or by example, into sin (as opposed to the other “scandal” – creating food for gossip-mongers) – is itself a sin, the priest owes a duty to his parishioner to remove the scandal (we will finish this sentence if it kills us), thus removing the temptation to the parishioner to sin.
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What if a couple married outside of the Church (first marriage or without an annulment) and attends mass weekly and is involved in the parish community. Must they explain their situation to anyone who sees them and wrongly assumes that they are in a valid, sacramental marriage?
 
Godfollower said:
Because true scandal – leading others, either directly or by example, into sin (as opposed to the other “scandal” – creating food for gossip-mongers) – is itself a sin, the priest owes a duty to his parishioner to remove the scandal (we will finish this sentence if it kills us), thus removing the temptation to the parishioner to sin.
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Good point; I was thinking more of the other kind of scandal, you’re right.
 
gmarie21 said:
What if a couple married outside of the Church (first marriage or without an annulment) and attends mass weekly and is involved in the parish community. Must they explain their situation to anyone who sees them and wrongly assumes that they are in a valid, sacramental marriage?
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Why are people assuming anything? In this case, can you be certain this couple did not have their marriage blessed?
 
A lot of the sin of scandal lies with those who spread rumors through gossip. And they are responsible for the reputations they destroy by that gossip.

That is also a reason why rash judgment is a sin. We don’t like when people do it to us. Yet many do it to others.

You aren’t responsible for other people sinning if you are living a moral life and doing what you are supposed to do. If they choose to conjecture, and do so stupidly and without all the information, your own life should be such that no one listening to them would believe it.

Christ Himself was the subject of much gossip and rumormongering. Did that stop Him from eating and drinking with prostitutes and tax collectors?? No. Because those who truly listened to Him and knew Him knew that He was Innocence Itself.

The sleaziest people in the gospels were the scribes and Pharisees who must have tracked the woman caught in sin, and waited outside her door, and listened at windows until the exact moment they could storm in and catch her in the act of adultery. Their own gossip and pointing out others’ sins and attempt to make Christ look like a lawbreaker backfired though. He simply wrote the truth in the sand and they went away. Because at heart, gossipers are very busy pointing out others’ sins, instead of fixing their own.

When someone tells me about someone else, I know I’m not learning about the other person, so much as I have just learned some bad thing about the talebearer.

Not everyone commits a sin out of malice. But those who repeat the details to others certainly aren’t doing so out of charity.
 
As for meeting a priest coming out of a brothel, we are to assume the best instead of assuming the worst. It’s better for us, really.

I would figure he was dropping off holy cards and rosaries and telling them when confession was. 😉

Because there ARE religious orders that try to reach out to prostitutes around the world and help lead these poor women from a life of victimization and show they have worth and dignity before God.
 
There is an article on “Rash Judgment” that appeared in the “Catholic Encyclopedia” of the 1960s and in the new edition of the “Catholic Encyclopedia” that just came out. Unfortunately, it is too long to provide here, but perhaps it is in local library if you choose to look. As you can tell from the title, this is something that can be sinful. Since many couples cannot have children, those who assume you are using birth control seem to fall under this category. I don’t think you are doing anything wrong yourself, though if the question ever comes up in a conversation it might be wisest to simply explain your difficulty. I have been married for 2 1/2 years and we haven’t had children so far, which is very frustating, and for myself, I don’t feel concern about what others think of this (though to be honest, I never thought about the possibility, that they might think we were using birth control). I wouldn’t worry about people taking a wrong view of such a normal situation.
 
Mirdath said:
If you’re not doing anything wrong, you’re not doing anything wrong; and if people choose to assume the worst or ugliest explanation, the problem isn’t with you but with them. Saying otherwise is like a peeping tom telling off the people he’s watching undress for making him look.

It may be best to try to avoid giving people a reason to jump to conclusions like that when possible, but I don’t see how the onus could really be on the innocent. You can’t get everybody’s mind out of the gutter.
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Good answer! Usually it is no one’s business what someone else is doing short of committing an obvious crime.
 
SeekerJen said:
So after reading the new cohabitation thread (where it is asserted by a poster that it is sinful for an unmarried brother and sister to live together because others will assume scandal), I started wondering. I know that when people see my husband and me, childless after 4 years of Catholic matrimony, they assume that we are using contraception, which is very much untrue. In fact, to rid others of that assumption we would likely have to resort to immoral means (pregnancy through IVF, etc.).

So which is worse: the one who, through no fault of his or her own, lives in what may be construed as scandal, or the one who automatically assumes scandal, even when there may be none? Or are they equal? Please understand, I do not ask this in a sarcastic or facetious manner. I sometimes wonder if I should leave the Church because our infertile marriage does present scandal.
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As others have said, you are not doing anything wrong. The fault, if there is any, is not yours.

I have a very close friend who is a very nice lady; a cradle Catholic. She is about my age, and was was married for 4 years (and annulled) many years ago. (If I get my annulment, we may become “more” than friends, but that is beside the point.) She does not have any children. While I wonder occasionally, how that came to be I have not asked her. I have drawn no conclusions as I can imagine a many legitimate reasons, infertility, miscarriage, the death of a child, NFP before the marriage went sour or surrendering a child for adoption or some combination. I can also imagine some not so good reasons artificial birth control, abortion or surrendering a child for adoption or some combination. 🤷

You see, from my perspective, to even ask her, despite how close we are, is improper. For me it is a loose/loose situation. No matter what the truth is, the very best that could happen to make her recall feeling of regret over past sin. The worst that might happen is that she relives, in telling me, what may have been a great personal sorrow, or worse, tragedy. So no, I would not ask.

And for the sake of my soul and out of affection and respect for her, I will not speculate either.
 
Jen,

I think it depends on how you embrace infertility.

If you embrace infertility as God’s will for you or even embrace it as your cross, your path to sainthood, then it could only serve to make you a powerful witness to the providence of God.

You could, perhaps, quell any concerns by asking some NFP couples at your Parish if NFP can be used* to conceive*; Familiarize yourself with scriptures regarding infertility; and pray for the intercession of Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist and cousin of Our Blessed Mother, who was not able to conceive until her later years and only by a miracle from God. Last Sunday’s Gospel 😉

It’s helpful to keep in mind the scripture from which the sin of scandal is taken:
Scandal—Scandal is an attitude or behavior that leads another to do evil. If someone is deliberately lead into a grave offense, that person’s tempter commits a grave sin (CCC 2284 and 2285). Jesus said, “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believes in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea” (Matthew 18:6). saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
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and let’s not forget that to “reveal others’ faults or sins” a.k.a. gossip is a sin against the 8th commandment.
 
if someone is scandalized by related persons of the opposite sex sharing a household, they need an attitude adjustment and should industriously cultivate the virtue of charity.
 
There’s one thing I’d like to add if that’s O.K., SeekerJen: one never leaves the Catholic Church if you’re Catholic; the Catholic Church is the only Church that is Christ’s one True Church, and teaches the fullness of God’s Truth.

Remember the Church has an earthly presence, and a heavenly, metaphysical presence. St. Peter was the Rock upon which Christ’s built his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

The Catholic Church is Holy because its founder Jesus was Holy.

You never ever leave the Catholic Church if your Catholic; you don’t leave because a Catholic clergyman committed a crime against you, or said something bad or mean, or a Bishop is bad, or you don’t like the music or the New Mass, and not because your worried about what others might think about you at Mass.

You believe in the Catholic Church because it is the Church of Jesus Christ, and it only has the fullness of God’s Truth with the 7 Sacraments and the Eucharist that provide the means to become holy and a saint.

Our human thoughts compared with God are, in perspective, really worthless thoughts. Yes, they’re important for salvation, but just turn the TV on and you’ll see there is a lot of worthless noise and the babble of human mouths. That’s not to say that humans haven’t achieved some great things, but our world is not the be all and end all of all life. What goes on in this world really isn’t that important; what is important is where you end up in eternity.
 
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