Scandal

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GramdpaMunster

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OK guys. I just read an AP story that 500 people have filed a claim against the Jesuits for abusing children. I’m starting to think there is somethinng seriously wrong with the Catholic church. Do you think that celibacy is unhealthy and leads to deviancy? The evidence might point in that direction. They say that the church is the body of christ, and has the keys to heaven, but the behavior of of church leadership is scandalous.

SPOKANE (AP) — More
than 500 people have filed
claims accusing Jesuits of
sexually abusing children
across the Northwest.
The claims vary in
severity and span decades
and geography, from
Native Alaskan village
children to students at
Gonzaga Prep.
People were required
to file their allegations
by Nov. 30, a deadline
imposed by the federal
judge overseeing the
Chapter 11 bankruptcy of
the Oregon Province of
the Society of Jesus. That
organization includes
Jesuits in Oregon, Washington,
Idaho, Montana
and Alaska.
 
Protestants and other religions with no celibacy requirement, or anticelibacy requirements at that still molest kids
 
Several important things to note:
  1. Most of these claims are from the 1990s or earlier. Very few of these priests are practicing priests anymore. Reforms instituted when the first scandals arose about ten years ago are now in place, and seem to be working well (although NO system will ever be perfect).
  2. Statistically, the number of priests accused of abuse in the Catholic Church is around 2-4%, which is about the same as the number of teachers accused of abuse in the public school system.
  3. The sexual abuse rate of pastors in many Protestant churches approaches this number, but you don’t hear about it as much, especially with non-denominational groups and Baptists because there is no central hierarchy to report to. For example, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are going through a very similar crisis, but you never read about that.
  4. None of these facts IN ANY WAY justifies the abuse of even one child by a priest, or the poor handling of these situations by the bishops.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
Do you think that celibacy is unhealthy and leads to deviancy? The evidence might point in that direction.
Click to expand...
No. As others have pointed out in this thread, the percentages are no different in churches and other settings where there is no celibacy factor.

It may be true that, particularly in times past, men with homosexual inclinations considered the priesthood as an alternative to marriage. It may be that men with homosexual inclinations may have hoped that it would be easier to remain chaste in a condition of enforced celibacy. But homosexuality does not necessarily (or even typically) correlate with pedophilia, so if the priesthood has a higher than average number of homosexuals that would only mean that the percentage of abusers who are homosexual would be skewed, not the total percentage.

What is true is that sexual abuse is facilitated when an adult can establish relationships that permit the abuser to become a trusted adult in the lives of children, where the abuser can persuade the child that because of his (most pedophiles are male) that he has authority that the child should/must submit to, and where the abuser has a role that other adults in the child’s life assume makes that adult “safe.” Priesthood provides that “cover,” as does coaching, another job category with a high rate of reported abuse. (Boyfriends of mothers is another group, and statistically most abusers are family members . . . )

The failure of the hierarchy to act swiftly is a scandal but not a surprise - institutions typically respond defensively to perceived threats, and until recently most people had very little understanding of the phenomenon of pedophilia or the unlikeliness of effective reformation/rehabilitation of abusers. I do think that the institutional changes recently implemented (at least in the US) are probably going to be effective, but they do not change or reverse the damage that decades of silence allowed.

What is most damaging (in terms of perception) is that the Church is supposed to be holding to a higher standard, and appears in this case to have been no different than any other institution.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
OK guys. I just read an AP story that 500 people have filed a claim against the Jesuits for abusing children. I’m starting to think there is somethinng seriously wrong with the Catholic church. Do you think that celibacy is unhealthy and leads to deviancy? The evidence might point in that direction. They say that the church is the body of christ, and has the keys to heaven, but the behavior of of church leadership is scandalous.
Click to expand...
First, there is no excuse for this behavior, and those who are guilty need to be punished to the full extent of the law.

Second, there is no connection between celibacy and abuse of children. In fact, serious studies have shown that the incidents of abuse are higher among Protestant clergy and the population at large.

Third, no one will ever hear of a similar lawsuit against some small, no-name church because there is no real money involved. Small churches don’t have the deep pockets that the Catholic Church has, and consequently, there is little to be awarded.

Fourth, the media reports this because it sells newspapers.

Fifth, Satan hates the Catholic Church above all.
 
The percentage of abusers is about the same among clergy in any religous group.

Unfortunately this makes the Catholic church look bad for 2 reasons:
  1. There are so many Catholic clergy that despite a low percentage of abusers the numbers seem greater than organizations with fewer clergy.
  2. Society likes to pounce on any Catholic issue. Catholics are a beacon of truth and morals in the world. Whenever one among us falls the attack dogs start salivating.
I would contest that the vast majority of abuse cases in this world that go by without our knowing are not performed by practicing Catholics.

If you think that abuse is limited to the Catholic church go to google and type Lutheran abuse, or Methodist abuse, or abuse. You’ll see.
 
it always saddens and diappoints me to hear Catholics, when asked about the sexual abuse of children in their church, immediately come up with “well, Protestants do it, too! it’s not just us, they’re equally bad!”

it reminds me of those Muslims who, when asked about the disproportianate and very noticable amount of violence and hatred propegated by a signifigant minority of Muslims, respond with “well, what about you, what about the Crusades? what about the “Christian terrorists” in Serbia and Sierra Lione? what about the priests abusing children, what about that?”

that shifting of the same accusation to another party does nothing to answer the question directed at the Muslim, or the Catholic. if the asker wanted to know about child abuse in Protestant churches, or about Christian violence, they wouldn’t have asked what they did.

it’s difficult for non-Catholics to look at the Catholic church with respect and seriousness when questions are deflected, or projected onto some one else. i realize the church and Catholics must be weary of these kinds of questions, and of defending their church because of the crimes of a few. at the same time, these are serious questions that people will ask, usually not because they hate the Catholic Church, but because they are concerned about the rape and abuse of children being covered up and kept quiet for decades within a very powerful and influential church, who had the resources and the theology to understand that sin is sin, crime is crime, and that wolves in sheeps’ clothing should not be allowed to keep preying on more sheep. and that there is much value in plucking out that member which causes the whole body to sin, and asking forgiveness of the hurt parties, from the get go.
 
grace_singh said:
it always saddens and diappoints me to hear Catholics, when asked about the sexual abuse of children in their church, immediately come up with “well, Protestants do it, too! it’s not just us, they’re equally bad!”

it reminds me of those Muslims who, when asked about the disproportianate and very noticable amount of violence and hatred propegated by a signifigant minority of Muslims, respond with “well, what about you, what about the Crusades? what about the “Christian terrorists” in Serbia and Sierra Lione? what about the priests abusing children, what about that?”

that shifting of the same accusation to another party does nothing to answer the question directed at the Muslim, or the Catholic. if the asker wanted to know about child abuse in Protestant churches, or about Christian violence, they wouldn’t have asked what they did.

it’s difficult for non-Catholics to look at the Catholic church with respect and seriousness when questions are deflected, or projected onto some one else. i realize the church and Catholics must be weary of these kinds of questions, and of defending their church because of the crimes of a few. at the same time, these are serious questions that people will ask, usually not because they hate the Catholic Church, but because they are concerned about the rape and abuse of children being covered up and kept quiet for decades within a very powerful and influential church, who had the resources and the theology to understand that sin is sin, crime is crime, and that wolves in sheeps’ clothing should not be allowed to keep preying on more sheep. and that there is much value in plucking out that member which causes the whole body to sin, and asking forgiveness of the hurt parties, from the get go.
Click to expand...
I think you are completely missing the point.

Yes, we know there has been a problem.

However, do you know that the problem has been blown COMPLETELY out of proportion?

IOW, your own denomination probably has worse problems with pedophilia, abuse, divorce, adultery, etc…

BUT IT DOESN’T GET REPORTED IN THE PRESS EVERY SINGLE DAY.

After awhile, it is reasonable for us to ask YOU to look at the log in your own eye since it is LARGER than the speck in ours.

Don’t you think? 🤷
 
The only thing I’d like to add is a reply to the last post by grace:

No one is saying that any sex abuse is ever justified, but what is being said is what Christ told the crowds, “let he who is sinless cast the first stone”. What has been posted is merely a reminder that this type of tragidy is hardly exclusive to the Catholic Church.

I will also point out, on a personal level that actually that as a Catholic I actually feel like my children are more assured they won’t have to go through this again. We have a single, Universal church. Something I find seems to be a concept Protestants struggle with. When our Church is racked by such tragedies we are able to implement Church wide measures to absolutely minimize the possibility that this will happen again.

Protestant congregations have no such luxury. It seems to me that when something awful or distasteful happens at one congregation, it seems to me that there is a tendency to want to say “yeah but that was that church over there, that could never happen at my church!” Oh really?
 
Roll Tide said:
Several important things to note:
  1. Most of these claims are from the 1990s or earlier. Very few of these priests are practicing priests anymore. Reforms instituted when the first scandals arose about ten years ago are now in place, and seem to be working well (although NO system will ever be perfect).
  2. Statistically, the number of priests accused of abuse in the Catholic Church is around 2-4%, which is about the same as the number of teachers accused of abuse in the public school system.
  3. The sexual abuse rate of pastors in many Protestant churches approaches this number, but you don’t hear about it as much, especially with non-denominational groups and Baptists because there is no central hierarchy to report to. For example, the Jehovah’s Witnesses are going through a very similar crisis, but you never read about that.
  4. None of these facts IN ANY WAY justifies the abuse of even one child by a priest, or the poor handling of these situations by the bishops.
Click to expand...
…
You bring up some excellent points. I don’t think it’s specifically the fact that our Church is run by a hierarchy per-say. Catholics, Baptist, Anglicans, Mormons, Jewish, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Buddhists, or practically any religion have their own internal problems with clergy, ministers and the like who are guilty of deviant sexual acts against vulnerable children.

The reason why Catholic Priests are criticized in the media headlines is because any other sensationalized story about children being sexually assaulted even if it is questionably true, wouldn’t sell newspapers if it came from another religion.
 
The abuse of children is a HORRENDOUS crime. However, to equate child abuse with celibacy is just insane. The highest number of sexual abuse cases occur at the hands of a child’s father, yet nobody claims we should abolish marriage…of course not, and we shouldn’t…hopefully, though, by pondering this actuality, more people will think about the ridiculous stupidity of linking celibacy with abuse.

Grandpa Munster, I am not trying to insult you, it is just that I am completely fed up with people suggesting a link between celibacy and abuse, when, clearly, no link exists. Sick and/or corrupt and/or deviant people show up in all walks of life - marriage, parenthood, single life, and, unfortunately, in the priesthood and religious life, as well. Abuse has nothing to do with celibacy.

Let us pray for all victims of abuse and for all children.
 
grace_singh said:
it always saddens and diappoints me to hear Catholics, when asked about the sexual abuse of children in their church, immediately come up with “well, Protestants do it, too! it’s not just us, they’re equally bad!”
Click to expand...
As was noted, you are missing the point, in particular, the point made by the OP. He suggested that there is something in Catholic teaching (the discipline of priestly celibacy) that makes the problem (the grave sin, certainly) of child and teen abuse worse. If it can be demonstrated that the problem (the grave sin) is not worse then that answers the OPs suggestion. You should not be saddened and disappointed when facts are used to answer a question to which those facts are pertinent.
 
To the OP, do you really believe that Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, recommended a life choice that is unhealthy and leads to deviancy? What would that say about the inspiration of scripture?
 
grace_singh said:
it always saddens and diappoints me to hear Catholics, when asked about the sexual abuse of children in their church, immediately come up with “well, Protestants do it, too! it’s not just us, they’re equally bad!”
Click to expand...
Well, except that the OP asked if the problem lies with priestly celibacy, so the contrary evidence of non-celibate clergy is complete germaine.
 
Abuse is horrible no matter who does it. . .

It is a medical fact (look it up in the DSM-IV) that the highest percentage of child abusers are married men (this is abuse both of their own children and unrelated children).

As another poster noted, are we going to outlaw marriage thereby?

If the numbers of the accused Jesuits ‘shock’ you, what of the number of the married (not celibate you notice) men whose abuse is far greater in number?

That is the point of those who (correctly) point out that the problem exists and is as widespread (or more, much more) than in the Catholic Church.

Not that ‘others do it too’. (That is ridiculous. Two wrongs don’t make a right).

But that "this is not limited to Catholics’. It seems that this is the same argument but the focus is ‘slanted’. Making the case that it is not limited to Catholics reminds us that the problem needs to be addressed everywhere, not JUST in the Catholic church, and it also reminds us that the ‘causes’ are absolutely, totally not related to celibacy.
 
and again, the same “well, what about the horrible married Protestants, they do worse” reply.

if the only thing the Catholic Church can do to answer survivors, the world, and faithful Catholics is to keep pointing the finger at other denominations, this isn’t going to go anywhere.

the right thing to do would be to hold those priests and brothers accountable, defrock them, appologize to the survivors, offer to make reperations, and take steps to make sure this does not happen again, or that if it does happen, that the right and responsible things are done.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
OK guys. I just read an AP story that 500 people have filed a claim against the Jesuits for abusing children. I’m starting to think there is somethinng seriously wrong with the Catholic church. Do you think that celibacy is unhealthy and leads to deviancy? The evidence might point in that direction. They say that the church is the body of christ, and has the keys to heaven, but the behavior of of church leadership is scandalous.

SPOKANE (AP) — More
than 500 people have filed
claims accusing Jesuits of
sexually abusing children
across the Northwest.
The claims vary in
severity and span decades
and geography, from
Native Alaskan village
children to students at
Gonzaga Prep.
People were required
to file their allegations
by Nov. 30, a deadline
imposed by the federal
judge overseeing the
Chapter 11 bankruptcy of
the Oregon Province of
the Society of Jesus. That
organization includes
Jesuits in Oregon, Washington,
Idaho, Montana
and Alaska.
Click to expand...
are all these people telling the truth? i know of a few cases in which people accused the priest and he was innocent. now and days we see so many false accusations against others. where there is money there is danger of someone try to scorge money from.
just an opinion.
 
why is it that the catholic church is always the one in the news when other religions do the same or even worse and don’t get picked on like the catholics we are all humans and make mistakes
 
GramdpaMunster said:
OK guys. I just read an AP story that 500 people have filed a claim against the Jesuits for abusing children. I’m starting to think there is somethinng seriously wrong with the Catholic church. Do you think that celibacy is unhealthy and leads to deviancy? The evidence might point in that direction. They say that the church is the body of christ, and has the keys to heaven, but the behavior of of church leadership is scandalous.

SPOKANE (AP) — More
than 500 people have filed
claims accusing Jesuits of
sexually abusing children
across the Northwest.
The claims vary in
severity and span decades
and geography, from
Native Alaskan village
children to students at
Gonzaga Prep.
People were required
to file their allegations
by Nov. 30, a deadline
imposed by the federal
judge overseeing the
Chapter 11 bankruptcy of
the Oregon Province of
the Society of Jesus. That
organization includes
Jesuits in Oregon, Washington,
Idaho, Montana
and Alaska.
Click to expand...
The Chance for Free Money will always find takers especially when the shysters are driving it. Your comments about the Catholic Church can be said about your Particular Church/Group/Denomination with Interest. So let me say it.

Every Study ever done by any & every Reputable College or Group has shown that the rate of molestation is Greater among Non-Catholics. Your slur against my Church was not appreciated, Perhaps you should get your own house in order before throwing stones in mine. :mad:
 
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