Scandals … contraception, homosexuality, etc

[Peter_J]

I just couldn’t help but read that you really desired a Christian response but C’s and P’s could also respond if they desired!

Heh. Well that’s good too.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Peter J

I think you are one of those fortunate “nice” people out there.

This made me think. Two persons of the opposite sex can not go on holiday or be together alone and that normally cause scandal, but when two same sex persons do the same, nobody cares (And the case I am thinking of, it was a lot more obvious something was going on there). Human minds are strange, and we don’t always ask for our thinking.

Interesting point.

For Christians in the US, I think it’s generally considered acceptable for two heterosexual men, or women, to be staying together. I imagine it’s considered equally acceptable for a man and a woman, if they’re both homosexual.

 

[Rosebud77]

Honestly… one of the things I think would help is if we cut down on gossip in our own lives (if it is there ).

Apart from abstaining from things that we know to be sinful, we also have to pay attention to the Golden rule; if we are busy doing positive, perhaps the rest would take care of itself, at least amongst Christians. We aren’t responsible for the thoughts of someone else, but we are to live cleanly and mind our witness.

amen to this.far too much judging and thinking the worst

a lot that is seen these days is what was going on privately previously.

 

[Peter_J]

I throw this out for anybody who cares to contribute a thought on it. (Note: All persons in this scenario are unmarried adults.) Suppose two neighbors, Neighbor 1 and Neighbor 2, are talking about something they just heard, that Neighbor C spent the night at Neighbor D’s house. Neighbor 1 is highly scandalized. Neighbor 2 says “Well, that’s not as bad as Neighbor E, who sleeps at Neighbor F’s house every single night.” Then Neighbor 1 says “Well yeah, of course he sleeps there, because he lives there too. They’re roommates [housemates]. Neighbor C spending the night at Neighbor D’s house is more suggestive.”

(I’m not trying to argue one view or the other, I just offer this as an illustration of how different people can view things differently.
Needless to say, Neighbor 1 and Neighbor 2 aren’t good Catholics, or they wouldn’t be talking about all that with each other.)

 

[Peter_J]

I throw this out for anybody who cares to contribute a thought on it. (Note: All persons in this scenario are unmarried adults.) Suppose two neighbors, Neighbor 1 and Neighbor 2, are talking about something they just heard, that Neighbor C spent the night at Neighbor D’s house. Neighbor 1 is highly scandalized. Neighbor 2 says “Well, that’s not as bad as Neighbor E, who sleeps at Neighbor F’s house every single night.” Then Neighbor 1 says “Well yeah, of course he sleeps there, because he lives there too. They’re roommates [housemates]. Neighbor C spending the night at Neighbor D’s house is more suggestive.”

(I’m not trying to argue one view or the other, I just offer this as an illustration of how different people can view things differently.
Needless to say, Neighbor 1 and Neighbor 2 aren’t good Catholics, or they wouldn’t be talking about all that with each other.)

P.S. Of course, there could also be Neighbor 3 in that conversation, who says “I don’t formulate any ideas about what any of those four people have or haven’t done sexually. But since their actions invite people to formulate such ideas, I know that none of them are good Catholics.”

 

[Peter_J]

Honestly… one of the things I think would help is if we cut down on gossip in our own lives (if it is there ).

I agree, but to be fair it isn’t always gossip. Granted, the hypothetical conversation I just presented would be gossip. But it wouldn’t be gossip if someone just said “Unmarried persons shouldn’t sleep in the same house” etc.

 

[Kliska]

I agree, but to be fair it isn’t always gossip. Granted, the hypothetical conversation I just presented would be gossip. But it wouldn’t be gossip if someone just said “Unmarried persons shouldn’t sleep in the same house” etc.

I was just getting ready to post because that is what jumped out at me is the gossip… it has more to do with me than your post though I imagine. Gossip is one of those issues that has pressed on me lately and I admit a fair share of it in the past, not really realizing that’s what I was doing so I tend to try to notice it more now because of conviction.

However, if it’s not gossip, and just a conversation about facts or hypotheticals, I do think “scandal” is really individual, and is situationally dependent. From my POV we are called to common sense things to avoid that could cause scandal. Thinking of scripture, the early believers were called to avoid anything that would scandalize Jewish individuals to the extent that they would turn their back on the truth because of the seriousness of the scandal.

So, for example, if I take a girls’ trip with my friend, I don’t think I should have to anticipate someone may think we are lesbians. However, I’m married, and I think I should have to anticipate someone may think I’m cheating on my hubby if I’m walking through my hometown holding hands with a male friend. So, setting is important? lol I don’t know. It’s tough. If I’m in my hometown, people know I’m a Christian. If I’m 500 miles away people don’t know that unless I’m in a church setting. It’s that harm to a specific witness that I think is the issue. Does any of that touch on what you are looking for as far as discussion?

 

[Reuben_J]

Sometimes I think this is a realm that falls more naturally on women, regarding the whole contraception thing. I’ve had several opportunities within the past year to make subtle comments about it. We’re the ones who make the OB visits, who get asked if our latest pregnancy was planned, how many children we want, etc. “We try to be open to God’s plan for our family,” and “We don’t have an upper limit on children,” or “However many God blesses us with,” etc. I think that usually gets the point across. My experience so far has been that people assume contraception, and comment accordingly.

I guess so. Thanks. I think like a man and had given my personal comment accordingly.

This is a reason too that we would usually bring along a woman member when ministering to a woman. There is certain area where a person of the same sex could understand better.

 

[Peter_J]

Does any of that touch on what you are looking for as far as discussion?

Well, I’m interested in all sorts of thoughts people might have on the subject.

It’s like your phrase from Post #11: doing positive. I mean it’s easy for me to think of things *not *to do, for example:

• not to gossip
• not to judge
• not to cohabitate
• not to make statements that could appear boastful
• etc.

but things to do about it all are harder to come by.

 

[Peter_J]

I was just getting ready to post because that is what jumped out at me is the gossip… it has more to do with me than your post though I imagine. Gossip is one of those issues that has pressed on me lately and I admit a fair share of it in the past, not really realizing that’s what I was doing so I tend to try to notice it more now because of conviction.

However, if it’s not gossip, and just a conversation about facts or hypotheticals, I do think “scandal” is really individual, and is situationally dependent. From my POV we are called to common sense things to avoid that could cause scandal. Thinking of scripture, the early believers were called to avoid anything that would scandalize Jewish individuals to the extent that they would turn their back on the truth because of the seriousness of the scandal.

So, for example, if I take a girls’ trip with my friend, I don’t think I should have to anticipate someone may think we are lesbians. However, I’m married, and I think I should have to anticipate someone may think I’m cheating on my hubby if I’m walking through my hometown holding hands with a male friend. So, setting is important? lol I don’t know. It’s tough. If I’m in my hometown, people know I’m a Christian. If I’m 500 miles away people don’t know that unless I’m in a church setting. It’s that harm to a specific witness that I think is the issue.

I think you’re quite right about common sense.

 

[kozlosap]

I have seen two families torn apart by parents trying to control their adult children’s private lives. In one case the parents refused to even speak with their adult (lawyer) son when he moved in with his girfriend. They did not attend the wedding and have not seen their first grandchild, but heaven knows they have not provided scandal to their judgemental friends. What a sad situation when you bite off your own nose to spite your face. I can’t imagine disowning my own child because they choose to live with another adult, but if they became a white supremest, that just might be another story…

 

[Peter_J]

I have seen two families torn apart by parents trying to control their adult children’s private lives. In one case the parents refused to even speak with their adult (lawyer) son when he moved in with his girfriend. They did not attend the wedding and have not seen their first grandchild, but heaven knows they have not provided scandal to their judgemental friends. What a sad situation when you bite off your own nose to spite your face. I can’t imagine disowning my own child because they choose to live with another adult, but if they became a white supremest, that just might be another story…

Rest assured I’m not advocating anything like that.

 

[Tagetes]

• “Yes, that’s my wife over there talking to the pastor. And we don’t contracept because it’s a sin.”
• “No, because I’m gay. And I don’t engage in homosexual sex because that’s a sin.”
• “No, but I’m engaged. And we don’t engage in sexual intercourse because that’s a sin outside of marriage.”

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HaveIMentionedIAmSexuallyActiveToday
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HaveIMentionedIAmHeterosexualToday

On a more serious note,

when asked questions like “Are you married?”

I answer “No.”

 

[Peter_J]

This thread has been dormant for a bit, but it seems the appropriate place for the theme of stores that sell contraceptives. Do you avoid going in them? (Assuming that you follow the church’s teaching on contraceptions to begin with.)

 

[Marie5890]

This thread has been dormant for a bit, but it seems the appropriate place for the theme of stores that sell contraceptives. Do you avoid going in them? (Assuming that you follow the church’s teaching on contraceptions to begin with.)

Is it really possible to avoid all stores that sell them?
I can’t think of one store in a 50 miles radius in my area where this is possible

 

[Peter_J]

Is it really possible to avoid all stores that sell them?
I can’t think of one store in a 50 miles radius in my area where this is possible

Well I guess that depends where you live. But to be honest I never thought much about the possibility of avoiding such stores – I just saw their selling of contraceptives as irrelevant to what I was there for.

I’m thinking that it becomes more of an issue if something that you want to buy is located next to contraceptives.

 

[MichaelP3]

Well I guess that depends where you live. But to be honest I never thought much about the possibility of avoiding such stores – I just saw their selling of contraceptives as irrelevant to what I was there for.

I’m thinking that it becomes more of an issue if something that you want to buy is located next to contraceptives.

Well getting a Tic Tac box next to the condoms at the payment aisle never really boggled my mind. Maybe I am Protestant and that’s a reason… But then again, I never even bought condoms in my life. And yes I am a married man.

In other words, I do and don’t get your point.

Regards

 

[Peter_J]

Well getting a Tic Tac box next to the condoms at the payment aisle never really boggled my mind.

Okay, but apart from the payment aisle … I’ve been in stores where there’s a “contraception aisle”. So if you were to walk down that aisle, even with the intention of buying something completely different that just happens to be kept in that aisle, people might think you were buying contraceptives.

 

[MichaelP3]

Okay, but apart from the payment aisle … I’ve been in stores where there’s a “contraception aisle”. So if you were to walk down that aisle, even with the intention of buying something completely different that just happens to be kept in that aisle, people might think you were buying contraceptives.

Okay this is extreme even in Protestant circles. An entire contraception aisle?

Here they would generally be in the feminine product aisle or in the last Pharmacy I’ve been to, next to the toothpaste. I would hope people rather believe I have clean teeth But then again, living in the country with such a huge HIV figure, many will maybe commend me for braving the aisle of the condoms.

 

[NM505StKate]

The Scriptural background to this thread is that the Lord tells us, not only that we shouldn’t judge (Judge not lest you be judged.” Matthew 7:1) but also that we should not cause scandal (“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” Matthew 18:6. A footnote explains that the verb translated “causes…to sin” or “causes to stumble” is the Greek verb skandalizein, hence our word scandal/scandalize. See usccb.org/bible/mt/18:6 )

Now here’s the thing: the modern world is a lot worse in some regards then past ages. For example, most married couples contracept, and even those who do not will likely be assumed to contracept by their neighbors. Likewise, most gay (homosexual) people engage in homosexual sex, and even those who do not will likely be assumed to do so by their neighbors. And, for that matter, most engaged couples have sex, and even those who do not will likely be assumed to do so by their neighbors. And any other examples that I’ve missed.

So I think the question is, what’s to be done?

I don’t want to suggest the obvious solution – namely that, when asked questions like “Are you married?” that people respond with something like:

• “Yes, that’s my wife over there talking to the pastor. And we don’t contracept because it’s a sin.”
• “No, because I’m gay. And I don’t engage in homosexual sex because that’s a sin.”
• “No, but I’m engaged. And we don’t engage in sexual intercourse because that’s a sin outside of marriage.”

but I’m open to hearing what other solutions there might be.

(Catholics and Non-Catholics are both welcome to answer, but I’m mainly interested in Christian viewpoints.)

I am not understanding the question. What is to be done about what?