Scandals in the Church

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I had read in a few sources that the Church has had a 2000 year history of pedophilia. The Church is not the only organisation with these horrific abuses, but what would you say to someone that thinks that these abuses mean the Church is not morally better than any other organisation?
 
Why would they think something that has the same scandals is morally better? Ask them to stop making accusations and start providing evidence.
 
Society has a much longer history of war and violence. Should we just do away with society? How about government since it’s always been a source of violence?
 
That is the point though. The Church is supposed to be better than things like government.
 
Well there’s no point in trying to downplay the current crisis in the Church, however I’m not sure if the same level of abuse was occurring 2000 years ago, that’s a new one.

The Church has never claimed to be morally superior to any other organization. The truths that the Church possesses with regards to Salvation, aren’t always reflected in the best light, especially if you judge them by her members and even the clergy.

But you can’t look at someone like a McCarrick or even your local parish members and say that the Church as a whole is false, merely because these individuals don’t follow the truth.
 
IYE said:
I had read in a few sources that the Church has had a 2000 year history of pedophilia. The Church is not the only organisation with these horrific abuses, but what would you say to someone that thinks that these abuses mean the Church is not morally better than any other organisation?
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Ask for the stats going back 2000 years.

No stats, no pedophilia.
 
I don’t think this particular evil has been around in every era to the same extent for 2000 years–different eras have their own evils more or less. In any event, the Church hands on the way of salvation, but we didn’t invent that way form our won wisdom. I don’t think anyone is confused that these acts are not mortal sins according to our doctrines. We received them from Christ. But not everyone in the Church will follow that path of salvation to completion.

Jesus Himself says most won’t–“many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matt 22:14). He also says “It is impossible that scandals should not come: but woe to him through whom they come.” (Luke 17:1)

Evil will live among the good in the Church until the final judgment:
Matt. 13:[41] The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity. [42] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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That doesn’t mean we should be complacent about it and we should definitely oppose it as much as we can, but we also shouldn’t lose faith when we see it. Jesus told us we would see it.
 
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Free advice.
  1. Stop reading “in a few sources”
  2. Where is “pedophilia” officially taught and practiced as a matter of course?
  3. Stop wasting irreplaceable life time on such drivel.
 
Genesis315 said:
I don’t think this particular evil has been around in every era to the same extent for 2000 years–different eras have their own evils more or less.
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While this is basically true, we know that this particular evil has been around for at least 1,000 years, because we have record of the Church’s attempts to control or eradicate it for at least that long.

It is a big mistake to simply relegate the issue to some modernist problem, or the sins of a few bad apples. This is a long standing and endemic problem. It will take a serious and long lasting effort to deal with it (something I am not sure has happened as of yet.)

It would also be a mistake to say that everyone in the Church is culpable, or that it erases all the good the Church does. We must face this very real problem is serious way, without losing perspective.
 
IYE said:
I had read in a few sources that the Church has had a 2000 year history of pedophilia. The Church is not the only organisation with these horrific abuses, but what would you say to someone that thinks that these abuses mean the Church is not morally better than any other organisation?
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What are these sources, let is examine their credibility first.
 
Jan 16, ’14 - world news.nbc news.com - UN Slams Vatican for ‘efforts to cover up’ pedophile priests.

Feb 5, ’14 – Christian Science Monitor - UN accuses Vatican of cover-up of sex abusers.

8/12/18 - By Chico Harlan Why the Vatican continues to struggle with sex abuse scandals
VATICAN CITY — With revelation after revelation, a new wave of sexual abuse scandals is rocking the Roman Catholic Church and presenting Pope Francis with the greatest crisis of his papacy

BBC – 2/6/17 - Child abuse: 7% of Australian Catholic priests alleged to be involved
Over 4,440 people claim to have been victims between 1980 and 2015

Aug. 14, 2018- New York Times: Catholic Priests Abused 1,000 Children in Pennsylvania
By Laurie Goodstein and Sharon Otterman Bishops and other leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in Pennsylvania covered up child sexual abuse by more than 300 priests over a period of 70 years.
Priests ran child porn ring in Pittsburgh diocese: state AG’s grand jury report.

USA Today, March 9, 2017, ROME (RNS) — Lurid accusations of priests involved in sex orgies, porn videos and prostitution have emerged from several parishes in Italy recently, sending shock waves all the way to the Vatican and challenging the high standards Pope Francis demands of clergy.

There… more sources…
 
That’s quite helpful.

Now would you mind posting the same stats for the Jewish rabbis, Christian pastors of all faiths, Christian fathers and mothers, Jewish fathers and mothers, as well as of course Muslim imans, Muslim parents, non-Abrahamic religious leaders and parents, and of course ‘agnostic’ leaders, atheist leaders, and especially ‘nones’ leaders (and parents)?

And if one is zeroing in on Catholic (and they always forgot Orthodox here too), two things:

Of the 12 Apostles, one betrayed Jesus. Which is, um, I believe an 8.5% ‘abuse’ rate. . .so it’s not like the Church ever claimed, “Join us, we only have perfect people, and all our leaders are guaranteed perfect too’.

Of all the nearly endless lists (one could add also schools, Scouts, etc) of those who abuse, why is no one focusing on PARENTS? Who are guilty by far of the most abuse? If you’re claiming that “Catholics should be perfect’ by virtue of them claiming to be the Church who has the most complete teachings (not that that guarantees that any given person will follow them, just as being created sinless didn’t guarantee Adam and Eve wouldn’t choose to sin. . .and they walked and talked with GOD HIMSELF!)—then why is there not the same outrage that the parents, the ‘bone and flesh’ of their children, abuse them? All the people out there who yammer about how wonderful humanity is (we don’t need ‘god’ apparently) and who taunt Christians about how their ‘god lovers’ are such sinners don’t appear to care that wonderful marvelous human beings abuse their kids at a rate that staggers the imagination.

It doesn’t appear to be Christianity which is at fault for abuse in that if anything, Catholic priests abuser at a lower rate than any other ‘control’ groups, even Christian parents or non-Catholic Christian pastors.

It appears that the fault lies in the individual, be he or she Christian or not, who chooses to ignore the basic and most fundamental laws God has written on the heart.

Do you blame God or Christianity when the highly regarded Baptist pastor is found to have sexually abused children? Or do you blame the pastor for rejecting his faith in doing those actions?

If the latter why in heaven’s name wouldn’t you feel the same about a Catholic priest. . .or a rabbi, an iman, parents, etc?
 
Thanks, and very good points. My reply was for the person who had asked for more references. Certainly, to list all of those who victimize children would have taken up too much space for this forum.

And I agree, the church and those within are “broken”… just like me… having pride and many other issues. As a Christian counselor, over 80% of the people I see come abused households… it certainly just one example of a broken and fallen world we live in.

Again, the context of my reply was in response to the previous writer on Catholic clergy. And for the record, just as our moral and civil laws require, there should be accountability for all those who abuse children.

Thanks for your thoughts…
 
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It worries me to see the use of rejection or betrayal of Jesus by Apostles used as comparators in discussion of child abuse.

In my view the reduction of child abuse to one of many sins is one reason for the failure of many in positions of responsibility to recognise it as a particular and pernicious evil that required the sort of determined steps now being undertaken, largely, by the Church.
 
And what do you then expect? That Catholics in particular be held to some kind of different standard based on the predicate that their Catholicity somehow confers on them as individual people a kind of Teflon coating that should render them incapable of sin?

Regards your second paragraph, baloney. This particular and pernicious evil has not been addressed PRECISELY BECAUSE people are attempting to make it an issue for ONLY the CATHOLIC church, and not addressing the root causes which underlie the abuse by ANY given individual.

Until people stop trying to make this a ‘Catholic Church’ issue, and may I remind you that even now the Church’s steps in reduction and education and safety are second to none (how are those Boy Scouts doing, BTW? Or the local Child Protective Services? Or even other religious groups? This is not to DENIGRATE or try to lessen one group, this is something that apparently the most vituperative and secularists just cannot seem to grasp —this issue is not ‘religiously oriented’, and its perpetrators do so regardless of ‘religion and in fact actual defiance of their religious beliefs. It is a societal issue.
 
The Church IS better. Her people are, taken individually, not.

I think that people tend to equate “The Church’ as “that pedophile Cardinal” or “those dissenting Catholics for choice’ and then when they are told that the Church itself is holy, do a loud horse laugh and “say what”.

Yet those same laughs go quiet if one is a non-Catholic Christian and somebody brings up a prominent nonChristian abuser. Then, “You cannot possibly equate all Baptists or Methodists or non denoms with one individual!”. . .

OR if one is a nonChristian and nonChristian abusers are referenced, “Oh well, ‘we never claimed to be superior like Christians do so you still can’t condemn whatever non Christian idea because that”. . .

Oh really? So a wrong is only a wrong if there is some kind of absolute standard that is being contravened?

Then why is a wrong ‘wrong’ for any group which doesn’t have any such standards except their own individual or collective—when it suits— determination?

Well then riddle me this:

If society has determined something wrong and an individual does that wrong, society still punishes him (unless he’s too important). The average person who is found guilty of a crime is usually looked down on in the ‘none’ world. That person has not ‘lived up to’ the moral superiority of ‘society’, right?

It’s the same thing. Society is claiming by virtue of determining a wrong that those who don’t do wrong are superior to those who DO.

And society which allows abortion and gay marriage is indeed setting itself up as being ‘morally superior’ to the Catholic Church. But nobody wants to address that, because then the hypocrisy of claiming the Church should be ‘better’ because of ‘moral superiority’ falls flat on its face.
 
stpurl said:
Regards your second paragraph, baloney. This particular and pernicious evil has not been addressed PRECISELY BECAUSE people are attempting to make it an issue for ONLY the CATHOLIC church, and not addressing the root causes which underlie the abuse by ANY given individual.
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I don’t know what ‘people’ you mean. In Australia the Royal Commission on Institutional Abuse (I recommend you check out its site) looked at a very wide range of organisations of which the Catholic Church was one. Against even this dispassionate approach the Catholic Church does not historically come out well, especially in the area of cover-ups.

I’d be interested in your response to the point I actually made which was about the treatment of child abuse as sinful and not looking beyond that to the specific nature of this ‘sin’ and the need to keep children safe.

As a secularist (as you put it) I have no trouble grasping that the issue is not simply one of religion. But there are religious aspects to the phenomenon in the Catholic Church to do with traditions of forgiveness, avoidance of scandal, reluctance to report crime of clergy and religious to civil authorities, what the Royal Commission called ‘clericalism’ (as it saw it the practice of placing priests and religious above others in all things, not just in terms of their Church roles), secrecy and lack of oversight in diocesan and religious order leadership and so on. None of this is about anything in the creed.
 
Are we forgetting about the saints? We have many that are canonized, many blesseds, and many saintly people who are known only to God. And, not all of them started out in a saintly life.
 
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