Scary Saints Quotes

[Nelka]

I have read some quotes by the earlier Saints regarding heretics being martyred and still not making it to Heaven.

Are they talking mainly about those that have left the Catholic Church for heretical churches as opposed to those that have never been a part of it?

*Even if one should shed his blood for Christ, he cannot be saved unless he has remained inside the Catholic Church.

• St. Fulgentius

True martyrs are found only in the Catholic Church; for, since there is but one true faith, there is but one true martyrdom.

• St. Irenaeus of Lyons

Heretics or schismatics, being placed outside the Church and cut off from unity and charity, even though one should be slain for the name of Christ, he could not be crowned in death.

• St. Cyprian

Baptism of Blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation because there is no salvation outside the Church.

• St. Cyprian

Outside the Church no one can be a martyr.

• St. Pacian

It is not the torture, but the cause which makes the martyr.

• St. Augustine *

Thanks.

 

[Myst]

I think the last quote answers your question. If every person killed for a cause earned martyrdom, there would be a problem. Heretics, you see, true heretics have rejected Christ. Unless they are contrite in their final moments then that rejection in life carries over into death. If you reject Christ’s mercy, then how can you accept heaven? I’d like to hope that most of them were given that extreme grace of repentance as they died. As for any person who was not already baptized, the baptism of blood will get them there. Saints say stuff that sounds extreme sometimes, but you have to read it with the theological backing that emphasizes God’s mercy. When st. Cyprian talks about schismatics not making it, it is because of the whole rejecting the truth deal. Hope that helps.

 

[Bonnie]

And remember, whatever a saint may say, it’s not Gospel. Context is everything and pithy quotes are always out of context and susceptible to varying interpretations.

 

[e_c]

Don’t think of them as “scary quotes.” These unbelievably holy men are trying to understand the justice of God.

Here’s a question: If God did exactly what these saints said He does, would we have a problem with it? Doesn’t He know what He’s doing?

We often would say, were we honest, “Yeah, it’s wrong! God would be so mean if He did that.”

A similar question could be put to these saints: If you were wrong, would you have a problem with it? Doesn’t He know what He’s doing?

Their answer would be something like, “No, I don’t have a problem with what God does, but I would have a huge problem understanding what the Church exists for if it is not necessary for salvation.”

The problem is this: we don’t trust God enough.

 

[Nelka]

Do you think they were aiming it more at Catholic’s that were leaving the Church as opposed to those born in non Catholic Churches?

 

[e_c]

Either.

I’m not an expert on the Fathers, or on ecclesiology, or on much at all really, but my sense is that the Fathers believed deeply in the urgency of the Gospel. Why else would there be a Great Commission? Jesus could have said, “Just mainly keep it to yourselves you guys, because the nice people on Earth are all going to Heaven anyway, so don’t bother them.”

The post-kerygmatic schismatic or heretical martyrdom question is just an extension of the same logic. The Fathers believed deeply in the importance of actually being a Catholic for salvation. “Don’t bother bringing good Arians/Nestorians/Protestants/whatevers into the Catholic Church, it doesn’t really matter, I’m going to save them anyway.” I think all of the men you mentioned would be annoyed with the breviary mentioning the Protestant companions of St. Charles Lwanga, even though it doesn’t hold them up as saints.

Yes, there has certainly been some authentic development on this point regarding culpability and ignorance, but on the other hand… what we profess and how we profess it matters. Martyrdom is an act of charity, charity builds on hope, hope builds on faith. If the virtue of faith is corrupted… there’s trouble.

Again: we should be okay with whatever God does with these souls. He loves them a lot more than we do.