Schismatic Worship

[BobP123]

I don’t see anything there about an Orhtodox Divine Liturgy fulfilling the Sunday obligation.

Canon 844 refers to sacraments, not the Sunday obligation

Canon 1248 - 1 says in a catholic rite - Orthodox is not Catholic.

Canon 1248 -2 recommends other prayer if one cannot attend a Catholic rite, but does not oblige it.

If a Catholic rite is not available one is excused from the obligation.

Valid Apostolic succession, valid consecration, valid Catholic rite. Look it up. I understand those Canon Laws were specifically written for the Orthodox churches. I guess it all boils down to “spiritual advantage.”

 

[palmas85]

Valid Apostolic succession, valid consecration, valid Catholic rite. Look it up. I understand those Canon Laws were specifically written for the Orthodox churches. I guess it all boils down to “spiritual advantage.”

Not entirely correct my friend.

 

[BobP123]

Not entirely correct my friend.

I presume you will return later and provide evidence from Vatican sources?

 

[palmas85]

I presume you will return later and provide evidence from Vatican sources?

No I will not but I will say that a rift exists between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, and the two are not interchangeable.

 

[BobP123]

No I will not but I will say that a rift exists between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, and the two are not interchangeable.

Who said there wasn’t a “rift” and that the two rites are interchangeable?

traditio.com/tradlib/faq06.txt

 

[Daisiegirl]

TantunErgo90 ~ basically Catholics are unworthy to recieve the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ in the eyes of the Orthodox in their House… so instead, they compromised by replacing the Eucharist, with simple bread and wine, something that does not provide everlasting life…

In Eastern Catholic tradition, blessed bread is shared AFTER the Diving Liturgy, it is NOT to be confused as a ‘replacement’ for ‘unbelievers,’ of the Holy Eucharist…

 

[Sure]

jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2005/03/orthodox_liturg.html

This makes sense to me.

If we started calling every Mass that was valid a “catholic rite”, we could attend the Old Catholic Church, the Liberal Catholic Church, the Polish National Catholic Church, etc.

 

[BobP123]

In Eastern Catholic tradition, blessed bread is shared AFTER the Diving Liturgy, it is NOT to be confused as a ‘replacement’ for ‘unbelievers,’ of the Holy Eucharist…

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[East_and_West]

Valid Apostolic succession, valid consecration, valid Catholic rite. Look it up. I understand those Canon Laws were specifically written for the Orthodox churches. I guess it all boils down to “spiritual advantage.”

They cannot and are not considered Catholic by the Church and her teachings. Only those in Communion with Rome who hold the true faith are Catholic, only they can claim to preach that which is universal.

 

[palmas85]

Who said there wasn’t a “rift” and that the two rites are interchangeable?

traditio.com/tradlib/faq06.txt

Sounded like you did.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Sure it does.

I’ll look in my commentary when I get home, but before checking that source I think we should all be able to agree that the canon must mean more than simply assisting at worship carried out according to books used by Catholic churches. After all, it would be ludicrous to say that one had fulfilled one’s obligation by assisting at a service using the texts and rubrics of the TLM but conducted by a lesbian womynpriest. So the meaning of “catholic rite” that would more readily present itself than “rite used by, among other groups, Catholics” is “rite conducted by Catholics.” On that reading, an Orthodox Divine Liturgy fails the test.

Also, if one can fulfill the obligation, one is bound to do so. But if you canvass the web for advice from respectable priests I’m pretty sure you would find most all of them saying you don’t have to attend Orthodox worship if no Catholic worship is available. From this it would follow that Orthodox worship does not satisfy the Sunday obligation, as an common-sense understanding of the canon would imply.

Now as to the original question, current law does allow attending Orthodox worship, though not receiving communion (unless it is physically or morally impossible to receive from a Catholic minister).* One always has to guard against scandal or indifferentism, but merely attending the liturgy, especially if done for the purpose of experiencing the rite (sound familiar?) and not necessarily experiencing the worship of another communion, is permissible.

In fact, if a Catholic is not permitted to attend liturgies celebrated by ministers not in communion with Rome (which is our nice cushy modern language for schisms whose borders are hard to define), then those who argue for attending SSPX Masses have no case. Actually, the Orthodox priests are in one respect in a slightly better situation than the SSPX because they stand under no canonical impediment and thus do not commit mortal sin by offering the Mass. Granted, their situation is worse from the standpoint that their schism is clear and thus they are accountable for that sin, but on the level of particulars they are not sinning every time they celebrate the holy mysteries.

*Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.
§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.
§3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.

 

[Glowwriter]

I wouldn’t worry about that since you knew the bread was unconsecrated, so you didn’t think it was the Body and Blood of Christ. Praying with people of other faiths can open dialogue and offer you opportunities to evangelize and catechize, so I’d jump at the chance. And as long as you’re not praying to a pagan deity but instead, praying to G-d WITH the other people, then I think you’re just fine.

 

[BobP123]

But if you canvass the web for advice from respectable priests I’m pretty sure you would find most all of them saying you don’t have to attend Orthodox worship if no Catholic worship is available.

I suppose if you need to ask if you **have to do **anything, it doesn’t show much enthusiasm for it; thus no spiritual advantage is gained.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I suppose if you need to ask if you **have to do **anything, it doesn’t show much enthusiasm for it; thus no spiritual advantage is gained.

Simply another way of attacking the question: it speaks directly to whether schismatic worship can fulfill the obligation.

 

[Aramis]

I was reading an article in Latin Mass Magazine and it said that Catholics are forbidden by the Holy Office to pray with heretics and schismatics. Well, a few weeks ago (before I read the article) I participated in an Orthodox Divine Liturgy (I didn’t receive communion, but they offered me unconsecrated bread and wine which I did eat), was this a sin? I sung along with my friend there and it was a good experience. Is this allowed?

The official position is that the Orthodox are neither formal schismatics nor heretics. They are a part of the Church, but one that doesn’t realize it still is. (They feel we’re schismatics and some feel we’re heretics, but that’s a different matter.)

The unconsecrated bread is not part of the eucharist, but a sign of welcome. It’s allowed. Communion is allowed if the celebrant allows it, but is (mildly) discouraged from the Catholic side; from the Orthodox side it is usually prohibited for Catholics to recieve, but some priests and even bishops make exceptions on either case by case or sometimes standing instructions to allow their priests to do so. Due to their unique situation, you are allowed to pray with the Orthodox (since they are part of the Church) and participate in the Divine Liturgy as much as they will let you.

If you’re dying, a canonical Orthodox priest is fine for last rites, IF he will give them to you… His absolution is just as good as a Catholic priest’s. But, in general, most won’t give it.

Canon Law provides the Catholics of the Eastern Rites to participate for their own spiritual advantage… Romans are allowed to attend provided no confusion nor deception is intended.

Concelebrations are still forbidden. Priests from either side are permitted to sit in choir, but not to concelebrate; in the Byzantine liturgy, sitting in choir is not concelebration, per se.