Schola in the sanctuary

[kinderbueno]

Greetings, joyous Easter people!

I’ve always had my doubts about a liturgist hired at my childhood parish, but he seems somewhat reasonable enough when confronted with authoritative documentation. I’ve moved away recently, but things seem generally the same, e.g., the pastor seems to give him carte blanche liturgically, but that’s another discussion altogether…

Anyway, visiting the parish to spend Triduum with family, after distribution of Holy Communion at both the Good Friday Liturgy and at the Easter Vigil (maybe more, but I’d since gone home), at least some of the choir entered the sanctuary and sang appropriate renaissance motets…two of my favorites, actually! I know this is new because I still communicate regularly with friends at the parish. Of course, these displays were greeted with applause.

Just to give a set up of the church, it is an 80’s architectural masterpiece where the tabernacle is far from the sanctuary, and there is an already-conspicuous choir section sanctuary-left (stage-left!) of the sanctuary.

Besides it tingling my spidey senses, can someone cite specifically anything that bars (or allows!) such a practice? I suspect it could be like the silence of rubrics surrounding stuff like holding hands at the Pater Noster or blessings of those in the Communion line, but in case someone knows something I could use…

I hope everyone had a blessed Triduum otherwise! Alleluia! Alleluia!

AMDG,
-Mike

 

[SMHW]

Greetings, joyous Easter people!

I’ve always had my doubts about a liturgist hired at my childhood parish, but he seems somewhat reasonable enough when confronted with authoritative documentation. I’ve moved away recently, but things seem generally the same, e.g., the pastor seems to give him carte blanche liturgically, but that’s another discussion altogether…

Anyway, visiting the parish to spend Triduum with family, after distribution of Holy Communion at both the Good Friday Liturgy and at the Easter Vigil (maybe more, but I’d since gone home), at least some of the choir entered the sanctuary and sang appropriate renaissance motets…two of my favorites, actually! I know this is new because I still communicate regularly with friends at the parish. Of course, these displays were greeted with applause.

Just to give a set up of the church, it is an 80’s architectural masterpiece where the tabernacle is far from the sanctuary, and there is an already-conspicuous choir section sanctuary-left (stage-left!) of the sanctuary.

Besides it tingling my spidey senses, can someone cite specifically anything that bars (or allows!) such a practice? I suspect it could be like the silence of rubrics surrounding stuff like holding hands at the Pater Noster or blessings of those in the Communion line, but in case someone knows something I could use…

I hope everyone had a blessed Triduum otherwise! Alleluia! Alleluia!

AMDG,
-Mike

I guess I need a better idea of the setup here. Is this a fan-shaped building? Cruciform? What exactly do you mean by “enter the sanctuary”? Were they front and center before the altar? Or more to the side?

The applause is not such a good thing but is not entirely within the control of the schola.

 

[Melchior_1]

Some of the consecrated religious who are regulars on these boards have stated that in religious houses/abbys, the scholas can be on the sanctuary area. But I’m not sure regarding diocesan Masses.

where the tabernacle is far from the sanctuary

Minor note; this actually is more in line with “traditional” church practices. The Franciscans were the ones to move the Tabernacle to the Sanctuary, when Francis was inspired by the Jews to do so (it also apparently solved space issues in his small chapels). Before them it was usually off to the side, so when you see that it to the side it’s actually in line with older traditions (and also the Benedictine tradition as well).

 

[kinderbueno]

I guess I need a better idea of the setup here. Is this a fan-shaped building? Cruciform? What exactly do you mean by “enter the sanctuary”? Were they front and center before the altar? Or more to the side?

The applause is not such a good thing but is not entirely within the control of the schola.

I would say the church is closer to an arrow shape, /|, where the point of the arrow is the sanctuary, and where the sanctuary-left choir section takes up part of an ‘arm’ (though the ‘arms’ are raised a little higher than my crude graphic). It would be fan-shaped otherwise except for the glass-encased ‘mother’s chapel-of-silence’ on the choir side under one ‘arm’ and the Blessed Sacrament chapel and baptistry under the other. The altar is smack in the center of the sanctuary, a large crucifix on the back wall, the ambo on the Gospel side, and the presider’s chair back and offset epistle-side.

The choir simply ascended into the sanctuary from their side (no pesky rails, of course) passing the chair on their right and were standing center between the altar and crucifix…the same area where the priest would stand versus populum, but a couple of steps back to make space for the director who had his back to the people.

Does that help paint the picture clearer?

AMDG

 

[kinderbueno]

Some of the consecrated religious who are regulars on these boards have stated that in religious houses/abbys, the scholas can be on the sanctuary area. But I’m not sure regarding diocesan Masses.

Minor note; this actually is more in line with “traditional” church practices. The Franciscans were the ones to move the Tabernacle to the Sanctuary, when Francis was inspired by the Jews to do so (it also apparently solved space issues in his small chapels). Before them it was usually off to the side, so when you see that it to the side it’s actually in line with older traditions (and also the Benedictine tradition as well).

As far as the schola, does it assume they were in the sanctuary the whole time? What if they otherwise already have a place to sing?

This tabernacle placement, and the chapel built for it, for that matter (as you can see in my previous post) is completely detached and is fairly inconspicuous – one might even say it doesn’t meet the criterion of being conspicuous enough upon entrance to the church.

AMDG,
-Mike

 

[tafan]

Minor note; this actually is more in line with “traditional” church practices. The Franciscans were the ones to move the Tabernacle to the Sanctuary, when Francis was inspired by the Jews to do so (it also apparently solved space issues in his small chapels). Before them it was usually off to the side, so when you see that it to the side it’s actually in line with older traditions (and also the Benedictine tradition as well).

Minor note about minor note: This is a misrepresentation IMO. First of all, St Francis lived a LONG time ago, so I think 1000 years is enough time to qualify for tradition (small t). Secondly, it had to become common in most “smaller” churches for a reason to have the taberbacle behind the altar beyond the simple reason that “St Francis did it”. Also, the older churches which we know have had in on the side or a different altar always, are typically very big cathedrals or basilicas;where it makes a lot more sense.

Not meaning to nit pick: but while I don’t dislike at all many our modern developments in liturgy and church designes, I absolutely hate when they are justified with ancientism. Which happens so often, that we all take those arguments for granted and don’t even think about the words “thats how the early Church did it” critically.

 

[Melchior_1]

Minor note about minor note: This is a misrepresentation IMO. First of all, St Francis lived a LONG time ago, so I think 1000 years is enough time to qualify for tradition (small t). Secondly, it had to become common in most “smaller” churches for a reason to have the taberbacle behind the altar beyond the simple reason that “St Francis did it”. Also, the older churches which we know have had in on the side or a different altar always, are typically very big cathedrals or basilicas;where it makes a lot more sense.

Not meaning to nit pick: but while I don’t dislike at all many our modern developments in liturgy and church designes, I absolutely hate when they are justified with ancientism. Which happens so often, that we all take those arguments for granted and don’t even think about the words “thats how the early Church did it” critically.

There are two schools of thoughts for this;

1. St. Francis moved it to the Sanctuary.
2. The Benedictines kept it to the side.

The two placements were kept in parallel, neither one subsided. Over the course of the last few centuries, whoever controlled the liturgical elements within the Church would dictate the lowercase traditions. For the longest while, it was the prolific Franciscans who did. They traveled, set up their chapels, and their influence became readily apparent. You can see some of these Franciscan influences with St. Pious X, who was a Secular Franciscan himself.

During the last thirty or forty years, we’ve seen Benedictine influences come into play. The Benedictines keep the Tabernacle off to the side. With several Benedictines (and those who practice Benedictine theology) getting into liturgical building design, it makes sense for them to want to move the Tabernacle to the side.

Both are long standing traditions within the Church, and is a great example of how the consecrated religious affect things on a diocesan level. It’s also a great example of misconceptions about Church practices, as most assume either that the Tabernacle has always been in the middle of the Church when some elements of the Church have always had it off on the side.

 

[Melchior_1]

As far as the schola, does it assume they were in the sanctuary the whole time? What if they otherwise already have a place to sing?

You know what, that’s a great question!

In the Franciscans and with other orders who place an emphasis on the equality of all in the order, even if they had a choir loft they might have the schola with everyone else. We’re talking about orders who don’t call their priests Father, because everyone is a Brother. All Brothers are around the sanctuary area. You can’t even tell who the priests are unless you want some Confessions or they’re doing words of Consecration at Mass. In their case, I wouldn’t be shocked even if a loft is around if that’s what happens.

In the case of the Dominicans, we’re a clerical order so I’m not sure. If I recall correctly, the local Priory has a loft in the Sanctuary area, but it’s to the side (not right in the middle).

This tabernacle placement, and the chapel built for it, for that matter (as you can see in my previous post) is completely detached and is fairly inconspicuous – one might even say it doesn’t meet the criterion of being conspicuous enough upon entrance to the church.

At the risk of derailing this thread, but is the red candle there?

 

[tafan]

There are two schools of thoughts for this;

1. St. Francis moved it to the Sanctuary.
2. The Benedictines kept it to the side.

The two placements were kept in parallel, neither one subsided. Over the course of the last few centuries, whoever controlled the liturgical elements within the Church would dictate the lowercase traditions. For the longest while, it was the prolific Franciscans who did. They traveled, set up their chapels, and their influence became readily apparent. You can see some of these Franciscan influences with St. Pious X, who was a Secular Franciscan himself.

During the last thirty or forty years, we’ve seen Benedictine influences come into play. The Benedictines keep the Tabernacle off to the side. With several Benedictines (and those who practice Benedictine theology) getting into liturgical building design, it makes sense for them to want to move the Tabernacle to the side.

Both are long standing traditions within the Church, and is a great example of how the consecrated religious affect things on a diocesan level. It’s also a great example of misconceptions about Church practices, as most assume either that the Tabernacle has always been in the middle of the Church when some elements of the Church have always had it off on the side.

I agree that it is a good example of what you point out at the end: ie that people assume what was done 50 years ago has always been done.

I disagree that moving the tabernacle to the center of the Church was solely done over the last 1000 years simply because of fransican influence. Lets give our ancestors more credit than that. Just as now, when architects design church’s they really work hard and study what will work and not work (albeit sometimes getting it very wrong), that has always been the case. If the taberbacles have evolved over a millinium to be in the center of the church behind the altar, it is probably because many people learned that “it works”. Not just because Fransicans controll the liturgy.

 

[Melchior_1]

I agree that it is a good example of what you point out at the end: ie that people assume what was done 50 years ago has always been done.

I disagree that moving the tabernacle to the center of the Church was solely done over the last 1000 years simply because of fransican influence. Lets give our ancestors more credit than that. Just as now, when architects design church’s they really work hard and study what will work and not work (albeit sometimes getting it very wrong), that has always been the case. If the taberbacles have evolved over a millinium to be in the center of the church behind the altar, it is probably because many people learned that “it works”. Not just because Fransicans controll the liturgy.

They learned it works in large part because the Franciscans popularized it, and introduced the concept in several of their chapels. People would go, see this, and think “man, this is a good idea!” (totally not realizing that Holy Father Francis grabbed this idea of the Jews, I may add). All the while the Benedictines kept on doing what was always done; have the Tabernacle off to the side.

There’s 1.7 million Franciscans out there right now, and they have what I believe to be the largest Secular Order in the Church. Several influential Popes who directed the liturgy were Secular Franciscans (St. Pious X was by no means the only one).

All I’m saying regarding this is that the Tabernacle being on the side of the Church is not rooted in ancient history, but rather has been a persistent tradition within the Church, and pre-dates the Tabernacle being in the center by a few centuries. And because it’s not a practice that has been stopped (and lately has been coming back into popularity), it doesn’t fall under the ancientism argument.

We should probably move this into another thread soon if we continue this conversation though, because I think the OP was mostly about scholas

 

[kinderbueno]

We should probably move this into another thread soon if we continue this conversation though, because I think the OP was mostly about scholas

My thoughts precisely!

Any additional thoughts given my clarifications above?

AMDG,
the OP

 

[kinderbueno]

You know what, that’s a great question!

In the Franciscans and with other orders who place an emphasis on the equality of all in the order, even if they had a choir loft they might have the schola with everyone else. We’re talking about orders who don’t call their priests Father, because everyone is a Brother. All Brothers are around the sanctuary area. You can’t even tell who the priests are unless you want some Confessions or they’re doing words of Consecration at Mass. In their case, I wouldn’t be shocked even if a loft is around if that’s what happens.

In the case of the Dominicans, we’re a clerical order so I’m not sure. If I recall correctly, the local Priory has a loft in the Sanctuary area, but it’s to the side (not right in the middle).

At the risk of derailing this thread, but is the red candle there?

Within the chapel, yes, the red lamp is there. Outside of the chapel to tell people where He is, no. It was actually a suggestion of mine in the past to at least have a lamp outside the chapel in the main body of the church so you can see it as you enter the church. Wondering if I should make the suggestion again…it shouldn’t be too hard or expensive, right?

As for the choir and the church itself, it is a diocesan parish, far from influence by religious. Like I said, they already have a place from which to sing, and they deliberately entered the sanctuary to sing the motet as I have described above.

AMDG

 

[Melchior_1]

Within the chapel, yes, the red lamp is there. Outside of the chapel to tell people where He is, no. It was actually a suggestion of mine in the past to at least have a lamp outside the chapel in the main body of the church so you can see it as you enter the church. Wondering if I should make the suggestion again…it shouldn’t be too hard or expensive, right?

FINAL TABERNACLE COMMENT (in this thread). (Maybe).

I think that’s a very worthwhile suggestion, and quite reasonable on your part. You could even suggest that you would donate the lamp, which would carry extra weight (putting your money where your mouth is, so to speak).

As for the choir and the church itself, it is a diocesan parish, far from influence by religious. Like I said, they already have a place from which to sing, and they deliberately entered the sanctuary to sing the motet as I have described above.

AMDG

I gave a historical example of religious influences. We have very few religious by my home town, but there’s still practices that have carried over.

That said, I haven’t found what you describe involving scholas or choirs in any of my reading or discussions. Usually the folks are up there before Mass starts. The exception are cantors and the like.

So I suppose if you make the case where the schola is a GROUP of cantors, maybe that would work? Further research required!

 

[kinderbueno]

FINAL TABERNACLE COMMENT (in this thread). (Maybe).

I think that’s a very worthwhile suggestion, and quite reasonable on your part. You could even suggest that you would donate the lamp, which would carry extra weight (putting your money where your mouth is, so to speak).

Yep, am totally planning to do just that! I couldn’t tell you how many times people have asked me where the Blessed Sacrament chapel is!

I gave a historical example of religious influences. We have very few religious by my home town, but there’s still practices that have carried over.

That said, I haven’t found what you describe involving scholas or choirs in any of my reading or discussions. Usually the folks are up there before Mass starts. The exception are cantors and the like.

So I suppose if you make the case where the schola is a GROUP of cantors, maybe that would work? Further research required!

This is editorializing a bit, but it really smelled of performance to me (my wife said the director’s actions made it look like he was dancing). The cantor and co-cantors had already been singing from the choir section for the rest of the Liturgy/Mass. This just served to draw attention to themselves, IMO, whether intentional or not.

From things I’ve read about cantors and liturgical music (like a nice three-part series I saw in Adoremus.org), that whole bit would be a stretch, at best, for what a “cantor” can do. And this liturgist can justify most anything if there is no express prohibition.

Thanks for your help and discussion!

AMDG

 

[tafan]

We should probably move this into another thread soon if we continue this conversation though, because I think the OP was mostly about scholas

Very good point, but I hope the OP will allow me one joke that your last post reminded me of.

Did you know that God was not omniscient? There are three things He does not know:

1. How much money the Dominicans have
2. How many orders call themselves Fransiscan
3. What the Jesuits believe

 

[Melchior_1]

Very good point, but I hope the OP will allow me one joke that your last post reminded me of.

Did you know that God was not omniscient? There are three things He does not know:

1. How much money the Dominicans have
2. How many orders call themselves Fransiscan
3. What the Jesuits believe

LAWL! I wouldn’t know what you’re talking about with #1 though…

 

[kinderbueno]

Very good point, but I hope the OP will allow me one joke that your last post reminded me of.

Did you know that God was not omniscient? There are three things He does not know:

1. How much money the Dominicans have
2. How many orders call themselves Fransiscan
3. What the Jesuits believe

I’ll allow it …and LOL

 

[Melchior_1]

Yep, am totally planning to do just that! I couldn’t tell you how many times people have asked me where the Blessed Sacrament chapel is!

This is editorializing a bit, but it really smelled of performance to me (my wife said the director’s actions made it look like he was dancing). The cantor and co-cantors had already been singing from the choir section for the rest of the Liturgy/Mass. This just served to draw attention to themselves, IMO, whether intentional or not.

If they were up there the whole time (including before Mass), it would probably be a bit more natural. It’d be pretty jarring to have a large group just join everyone else up there in the middle of Mass.

From things I’ve read about cantors and liturgical music (like a nice three-part series I saw in Adoremus.org), that whole bit would be a stretch, at best, for what a “cantor” can do. And this liturgist can justify most anything if there is no express prohibition.

I’m saying it’s plausible, not saying it’s correct

 

[sllhouette]

You know what, that’s a great question!

In the Franciscans and with other orders who place an emphasis on the equality of all in the order, even if they had a choir loft they might have the schola with everyone else. We’re talking about orders who don’t call their priests Father, because everyone is a Brother. All Brothers are around the sanctuary area. You can’t even tell who the priests are unless you want some Confessions or they’re doing words of Consecration at Mass. In their case, I wouldn’t be shocked even if a loft is around if that’s what happens.

In the case of the Dominicans, we’re a clerical order so I’m not sure. If I recall correctly, the local Priory has a loft in the Sanctuary area, but it’s to the side (not right in the middle).

Hey Melchior, the Dominican priory near me that I sometimes visit has a loft as well. But it was not made for a choir, but for the cloistered nuns who once lived nearby. In this particular situation, the brothers all sing so there isn’t really a need for a choir. The same MIGHT be true for you as well. During mass the ordained brothers should be wearing a stole.

To the OP:
Although it is not my decision… they really shouldn’t be up there. The placement of the tabernacle aside, we ought to respect the alter. Not to mention the danger of a choir thinking that they are “performing” rather than serving.

 

[tafan]

LAWL! I wouldn’t know what you’re talking about with #1 though…

Oh my, I had not noticed your byline. Sorry for that. Somewhat more seriously: When I heard the joke years ago, the part about the Fransicans and Jesuits made perfect sense, I remember thinking that someone must have just made something up about the Dominicans to have it round out to three things. To this day, its the only thing I have ever heard about Dominicans having money; of course the same cannot be said about the other two items on the list.