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Siddhartha
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Another wise Latina.
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debgab
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I thought of this idea too, only in regards to the muslim culture. The way women appear to be treated in this culture, probably wouldn’t be so permissible if there were veneration for the Mother of God…
Debbie
Debbie
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RedSoxWife
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Growing up Southern Baptist she was only mentioned, briefly, at Christmas. when all the little girls were desperate to play the part in the Christmas play.
Our church had not always been Baptist and so a wall had been erected to block out a stained glass window that depicted Mary. The last time I visited apparently the wall wasn’t enough and planks had been propped against the glass. Someone was clearly threatened by a simple, pretty, stained glass window to go to all that trouble.
She was definitely ignored the other weeks of the year!
Our church had not always been Baptist and so a wall had been erected to block out a stained glass window that depicted Mary. The last time I visited apparently the wall wasn’t enough and planks had been propped against the glass. Someone was clearly threatened by a simple, pretty, stained glass window to go to all that trouble.
She was definitely ignored the other weeks of the year!
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Mark77
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**Only insecure and weak men are threatened by our Mother Mary!
Jesus loved her so much He chose her to be His Mother, to raise Him and nurture Him, to be His first Disciple, to inspire His first miracle at Cana and to be the only human being who was with Him from His conception, to His Birth, to His Death on the Cross and even after His Glorious Resurrection!
** "His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” (Jn 2:5)
Jesus was speaking to all of us when He said; **“Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.” (Jn 19:27) **
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
mark
Jesus loved her so much He chose her to be His Mother, to raise Him and nurture Him, to be His first Disciple, to inspire His first miracle at Cana and to be the only human being who was with Him from His conception, to His Birth, to His Death on the Cross and even after His Glorious Resurrection!
** "His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” (Jn 2:5)
Jesus was speaking to all of us when He said; **“Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.” (Jn 19:27) **
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
mark
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kalt
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Wise latina. 
White men, some might even call them wise, have been saying the same thing about Mary for centuries. Perhaps these wise latina (and otherwise) women missed that message before now. One is tempted to say to the rest, “Wise up!”
Women who find Mary to be against so-called feminism have a very different view of feminism than I have. Then again, some women believe that all men are rapists, so it’s no wonder they see Mary as a weak victim.
White men, some might even call them wise, have been saying the same thing about Mary for centuries. Perhaps these wise latina (and otherwise) women missed that message before now. One is tempted to say to the rest, “Wise up!”
Women who find Mary to be against so-called feminism have a very different view of feminism than I have. Then again, some women believe that all men are rapists, so it’s no wonder they see Mary as a weak victim.
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Siddhartha
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The Blessed Virgin Mary appeared as a wise Latina on Tepeyac hill in 1531. So I don’t know what you’re talking about.
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kalt
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Oh, yes you do.The Blessed Virgin Mary appeared as a wise Latina on Tepeyac hill in 1531. So I don’t know what you’re talking about.
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Roy5
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Yes, perhaps Protestants should give a bit more attention to Mary. But the problem has been that Mariology has gone much too far in the Catholic Church. When I attend mass (as I often do) visible signs and symbols often appear to make more out of Mary than Jesus. I sense that the"Hail Mary" is a much more popular prayer than the “Our Father”. Etc. One cannot help but wonder if pagan goddess worship didn’t invade Catholicism way back when. After all, the first books of the New Testament were the epistles of Paul, and he doesn’t even mention Mary once in all those letters. Yet, we look to Paul for guidance and instruction when it comes to our core beliefs as Christians.
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I found it interesting to read that on July 26 (or thereabouts) Pope Benedict XVI defrocked Fr. Vlasic, who was former 'spiritual director' of the six visionaries who claimed that Mary visited them 40,000 times over the past 28 years at Medjugorje. Doesn't that suggest something? I am a friend of a couple who went there about 20 years ago. The Catholic wife was sure she saw Mary in the sky. Her Protestant husband didn't see a thing. It makes you wonder. Over thirty nillion pilgrims have visited Medjugorje, many claiming that they also saw Mary. Apparently, Fr. Vlasic has been accused of heresy as well as refusal to cooperate with the Vatican. And he also has been charged with covering up a sexual relationship he had with a nun! It's difficult to trust such leadership. Witness the recent scandal involving the departed priest who headed the Legionnaires of Mary.
Hundreds of apparations of Mary have been reported - probably thousands if you go back centuries. She has been seen in everything from a frosted window to a pizza, from a tree trunk to many cloud formations. Many faithful Catholics have been quick to gather, eager to believe. Sorry, but I see this as sheer paganism.
Perhaps Protestants have not emphasized Mary enough, but certainly Catholicism's obsession with Mary as "Queen of Heaven" and a hundred other 'queenly' titles has been alienating to those who want a reasonable religion that avoids superstition.
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Janet1983
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In what way do we miss out on anything important?Another wise Latina.
We do not hate Mary and we do love her. We just do not venerate her unjustly…
She is the perfect example of how God can use everyday people to accomplish tremendous things.
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Della
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I attend Mass every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation and the only time Mary is every mentioned in the Mass (unless it’s a Mass in honor of her) is in the Nicene Creed and at the Intercessions at the Altar. Otherwise, Jesus is the entire focus. Maybe you’ve only gone to Mass at Christmas or New Years Eve (which is the celebration of Mary, Mother of God) which might have given you that impression, but it’s certainly not the case for ordinary Sunday or weekday Masses. As for the Rosary, the Hail Mary is said more often, but that has nothing to do with it being more popular than the Our Father–to explain why would take the thread off topic, but there have been many threads on this which you can research. I’ll only say that the whole focus of the Hail Mary isn’t Mary, but Jesus. The first part is straight out of Luke and the second part is merely asking her intercession–as a saint in heaven, a part of our belief in the Communion of Saints, which you might also want to research.
One can wonder all sorts of things, but history doesn’t back up the idea that goddess worship entered into the Church. And the first books of the NT are the Gospels, which mention Mary quite often. Paul referred to her in Galatians, but his focus (as was the Gospel writers) was the message of Jesus. Mary’s role was no less significant nor worthy of our veneration merely because she isn’t the focus where she herself wouldn’t have wanted to be.
The sins and vagaries of human beings says nothing whatsoever about Mary’s place in our salvation. Plenty of Protestants have been major sinners and deceivers and done all sorts of terrible things too.
Catholicism isn’t “obsessed” with Mary. But we do give her the honor that is her due instead of ignoring her as if she were the crazy old aunt of the family who we are ashamed to mention as so many Baptists treat her. Now that is truly sad! Better a bit of over-affection in honoring her than that!
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debgab
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The sins and vagaries of human beings says nothing whatsoever about Mary’s place in our salvation. Plenty of Protestants have been major sinners and deceivers and done all sorts of terrible things too.
The recent Tony Alamo scandal comes to mind.
The recent Tony Alamo scandal comes to mind.
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Roy5
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A couple clarifications
I should have been clearer re Paul. Scholars all agree that the letters of St. Paul were written before the gospels. These epistles were sent to the early churches to instruct, etc. Not a single mention of Mary. She is ignored altogether. If Mary should be so central in our doctrine and devotion, why was she so ignored by the Great Missionary Apostle?
I should have been clearer re Paul. Scholars all agree that the letters of St. Paul were written before the gospels. These epistles were sent to the early churches to instruct, etc. Not a single mention of Mary. She is ignored altogether. If Mary should be so central in our doctrine and devotion, why was she so ignored by the Great Missionary Apostle?
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Of course, the gospels are the first four books in the New Testament, but were written a bit later than the epistles.
Now, as for the gospels, Mary is mentioned only three times (as I recall) between the birth and crucifixion of Christ. Once was when she and Joseph seem to have left Jerusalem without Jesus (which, in all honesty, still is difficult for me to understand - which of us as parents would have done that to our only or any child of twelve?).
On the other two occasions, Jesus doesn't seem to be deferential toward Mary. In Matt. 12 and elsewhere when someone said to Jesus that "your mothrr and brothers are standing outside." How did Jesus respond: "Who is my mother?" Then he pointed to his disciples and said" Look! Here are my mother and my brothers." Etc. Then, in John 2 Jesus was at the wedding feast. When Mary said to Jesus that they are out of wine, Jesus responded: "You must not tell me what to do." It seems that that may even say something about praying to Mary to intervene with Jesus. Myself, I go directly to God.
Having said all that, fine, Mary should be honored. But honored is quite different from veneration, crowning, special prayers, and all sorts of apparitions that are emphasized by traditional Catholicism.
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kalt
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I think that these supposed Mary sightings are nothing but hogwash. No one is obligated to believe in them.
They see Jesus in all those things, too, and not just Catholics! It’s insanity to believe that any image found on a piece of toast, even if everyone agress that it does look like Jesus, Mary, or Mickey Mouse ears, is anything but accidental. To give meaning to Jesus’ likeness on a potato is utter insanity.
Have you been to a Catholic Mass? Then surely you know that the Hail Mary is not recited during the Mass.
In my church there is one statue of mary, one of the saint the church is named for, one for a saint the pastor has a sepcial devotion to. As for Jesus, there are 2 crucifixes on the walls, 2 crucifixes that are carried in the procession at Mass, and Jesus is depicted in each of the Stations of the Cross. Those are just images. Most importantly we have the monstrance on display for devotions. And don’t forget the Eucharist. If you see a light there, Jesus in present in the Eucharist. I don’t think you could find a non-Catholic Church which is decorated in a more Christ-centered way.
I’ve been to Protestant churches, but I can’t honestly remember how many images, if any, there were of Jesus. I wasn’t counting.
How many are there in your church?If I wasn’t clear before, I agree with you that giving meaning to images in bread crumbs is ridiculous. I don’t believe in any of the sightings of Mary, Jesus, or whoever. I think it’s a lot of wishful thinking.
Though I agree with you that that stuff is silly, I disagree that that makes having a special thing for Mary wrong. Saints are good examples that any Christian would be smart to follow–and none is better than Mary.
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kalt
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Mary is not just an everyday person as you are. Mary is the mother of God. If you refuse to believe that truth, then you still must admit that she is the mother of Jesus.
I think that raises her above the average Joe. Remember, as the OP’s quote indicated, Mary was not a passive person who had something done to her. Who could believe that the Holy Spirit forced an unmarried virgin to become pregnant? She assented to God’s will. This is always a choice. God forces no one, and “uses” no one against their will.
IMO, the idea that God uses people against their will is wishful thinking on the part of people who want to make sense of the world. I didn’t go to church often for a long while. It was only while defending the faith against attacks by a Protestant that I realized how much I loved my religion, and how close it was to me. Do you think God used that man against his will to get me to go to church? Hardly. Especially since he would probably say that the debate with me brought him into a new appreciation for his own religion and that God used me to help him! Truth can’t contradict truth, and only one debate point could have been right. Either Catholicism was right, or the Baptist had it right. It couldn’t have been both. If God used both of us, God wanted the Baptist to live in ignorance a while longer, since he must have used me to drive him more firmly into error on the doctrines we were discussing.
Mary was not “used” by God. What a horrible thought!!
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Della
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When the Epistles of Paul were written compared to the Gospels is open to debate by many scholars. But, that’s not the point here, is it? Paul did not ignore Mary in the sense you mean. St. Paul’s letters were written to specific persons for specifics reasons. For the most part he was trying to correct misunderstandings and fend off attempts to make Gentile Christians into some kind of extended Judaic people. As I wrote, Mary wasn’t his focus. It matters not at all how many letters he wrote. Mary’s place in our salvation is unique no matter who wrote about her and who didn’t. It’s irrelevant.
I think you need to re-read the Gospels. Mary appears much more than you are indicating here. Luke in particular tells us quite a bit about her. Some time meditating on her role in his Gospel might be helpful to you.
I’m afraid the whole context, understood as they were understood for centuries before the Reformation (and even long after) doesn’t support your ideas here. It wasn’t until quite recent times that these passages were looked on as any kind of dismissive attitude on Jesus’ part. Luther and Calvin certainly didn’t have any such idea. It was only when certain sacraments were rejected by off-shoots of the major Protestant denominations that people rejected the traditional understanding of the relationship between Jesus and Mary. There have been several threads on the passages you cited on CAF–almost too many to count. And there are well-written articles on the topic in CA’s library. I suggest you read them to understand Catholic thinking here.
As to going just to God, that’s not really true, you know.
All of us go to many others for support and prayers. No one is a Lone Ranger for God. Jesus established a Church that is made up of us living on earth and those who have gone before us (they aren’t cut off from us by death). Those in heaven pray for us–they’re a part of the family Jesus was talking about in the passage you cited. Jesus himself told us that God is the God of the living not the dead (cf. Mt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27, & Lk. 20:38). Mary is one of those who help us with their prayers. And I don’t know about you, but I will take all the help I can get. No. The honor given to Mary by the things you cited are called hyperdulia, which means “exalted honor”. Mary is given this because of her unique position as the Mother of God or Theotokos (Council of Ephesus 431). Our personal distaste for things we don’t understand should never stand in the way of learning what those things actually are and what they can mean for us.
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Janet1983
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Who said that it was against her will? She said yes, just as everybody else can do. She therefore was used by God and by that God accomplished something wonderful, namely the salvation of His creation.
Who would not be honored to be used by the Lord of Hosts? God can take those who obey Him and use them to accomplish His purposes.
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estesbob
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She was just a “baby mamma” correct? God just found a convenient womb to park his son in for 9 months. Nothing special about that, right?
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Janet1983
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Mary was a virgin who conceived Jesus Christ by the will of God, through the Holy Spirit and with her own consent.
She is the mother of Christ, but she was not without sin. She lived and died like everybody else. She also was not a perpetual virgin, especially not during and after childbirth… that is ridiculous, even though Pope Pius XII taught that her corporal integrity was not affected by giving birth.
There is something special about that: She gave herself over into the service of the most high and that is something we should aspire to do too. God is almighty and we are His creatures. He made us, so what makes you assume that God using someone is not special?
All of this shows her devotion towards God. A devotion that many others have had throughout history till today.
This devotion however does not make her into a mediatrix and it does not make her the mother of all Christians or the co-redemptrix or the queen of heaven or even the mother of God.
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Siddhartha
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And you know all this, how?
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Janet1983
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You ever witnessed a birth? She conceived as a virgin and then she gave birth. After that there is simply no chance for the hymen to stay intact… Had there been anything special about Jesus being born, wouldn’t it have been mentioned in the Bible?
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