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These are where I have most of my questions. The following is jumbled. Also, I am not a scholar. Also, I am hoping for help. These are statements, but should be heard as questions. I guess I am saying that they are statements and questions at the same time.

Thanks!

Concerning the first three chapters of Genesis, the Church teaches that there are figures and symbols used in these chapters. Also, these figures all have literal meanings.

I like to use the other parts of the Bible to help me understand what is being said. Furthermore, I have taken my ideas from St. Augustine or others like him.

In the Beginning God created the Heavens and earth. Jesus is the Beginning. He, the Second Person of the Trinity, created the Heavens and the earth.

The heaven are the angels and then at a later time, the saints and angels. Revelation seems to help with this symbol. The stars are angels. Thus, St. Matthew’ uses a star and St. Luke uses an angel.

We are the earth.

We are composed of heaven (spirit and soul) and earth (body)

The deep is God’s wisdom. I think the early Church taught this based on Wisdom literature in the Holy Bible.

All was created at once. This too is based on Wisdom literature of the Holy Bible. This is taught also by the early Church.

Thus there is One Day and not seven days. It is broken down into parts for our understanding. The parts are seen as cardinal numbers and not ordinal numbers. All was created at one time, like our soul and body. An analogy, the soul is first and the body is second, not in time but in principle.

The firmament is God’s loving power.

The Tree of knowledge is one tree. It can be good or evil. It is our knowledge and will. The Tree of Life is God’s love and will. When our tree of knowledge accepts, believes and does God’s will, then our tree of knowledge is good. Another view of the tree of knowledge is: experiential knowledge of love. Analogy, to actually know how to ride a bike and not an academic knowledge of how to ride a bike.

The snake is the devil as told to us in other parts of the Holy Bible.

I think that we would be better to actually translate the four rivers into English. Also the lands through which the flow. The four rivers flow into our inner person. When they gather in us, as in an ocean, we begin to gain God’s deep or His wisdom.

The Four Rivers and their lands.
Havilah: Circle
First river: Increase (Pison)

Second river; Brusting forth (Gihon)

Ethiopia: Black

Third river: Rapid (Hiddekel)

Assyris: Stepp

Fourth river: fruitfulness… in the Greek: The Great River (Eupharates)

Eden: pleasure

When God says: “it is good.” This is telling us it is good, but not that God discovered that it is good.

Concerning The Day, it is our experiential knowledge of God that moves from darkness to light. This is true of the angels too. When we follow the Tree of Life–LIGHT! (Light comes from the fire of God’s love.)

Concerning the Light in the first chapter of Genesis, Jesus clearly teaches that He is the light of the world.

The angels that guard the way to the Tree of Life are there to push us towards the Tree of Life, like guard rails on a road. The angels use a sword. This is used to guard the way to the Tree of life. The sword is the Word of the Lord. St. Paul tells us that.

The first creation of humans is the interior man. St. Paul tells us that there is an interior person. The second creation of man is the exterior man. Origen explains this.

The thorns are worldly concerns. Jesus tells us this from the parable of the Sower of the Seed.

Adam and Eve were forced out of the Garden of Pleasure. God’s beauty and love could not be accepted by Adam and Eve. Their guilt was so great that they had to turn away. God’s goodness, love and beauty were too great for them. There weakened state could not hold God’s grace. Also, they, like Pharaoh, did not want to accept God and His love: that is, love is patient and kind (I Cor. 13: 4-7). God did not kick them out like one kicks a soccer ball. I am driven away by the guilt of my sins.

Well, I only think I know a few. I am not a scholar but a student of the Holy Bible
 
Again, Is Jesus The Day?

If He is, how did the Fathers explain that Biblically?

Thanks!
 
I am kind of jumping into this only skimming very quickly through the last few posts, I don’t have the kind of time that I desire right now to tackle this one. If I am off topic then let me know.

As for “Day” or for the whole Genesis account I have always been partial to St. Augustine’s explanation found in hsi City of God. In Bk 11 chapter 7 he talks about Day. Here is his quote.
We see, indeed, that our ordinary days have no evening but by the setting, and no morning but by the rising, of the sun; but the first three days of all were passed without sun, since it is reported to have been made on the fourth day. And first of all, indeed, light was made by the word of God, and God, we read, separated it from the darkness, and called the light Day, and the darkness Night; but what kind of light that was, and by what periodic movement it made evening and morning, is beyond the reach of our senses; neither can we understand how it was, and yet must unhesitatingly believe it. For either it was some material light, whether proceeding from the upper parts of the world, far removed from our sight, or from the spot where the sun was afterwards kindled; or under the name of light the holy city was signified, composed of holy angels and blessed spirits, the city of which the apostle says, “Jerusalem which is above is our eternal mother in heaven;” Galatians 4:26 and in another place, “For you are all the children of the light, and the children of the day; we are not of the night, nor of darkness.” <A href=“http://www.newadvent.org/bible/1th005.htm#5” 1 Thessalonians 5:5< a> Yet in some respects we may appropriately speak of a morning and evening of this day also. For the knowledge of the creature is, in comparison of the knowledge of the Creator, but a twilight; and so it dawns and breaks into morning when the creature is drawn to the praise and love of the Creator; and night never falls when the Creator is not forsaken through love of the creature. In fine, Scripture, when it would recount those days in order, never mentions the word night. It never says, “Night was,” but “The evening and the morning were the first day.” So of the second and the rest. And, indeed, the knowledge of created things contemplated by themselves is, so to speak, more colorless than when they are seen in the wisdom of God, as in the art by which they were made. Therefore evening is a more suitable figure than night; and yet, as I said, morning returns when the creature returns to the praise and love of the Creator. When it does so in the knowledge of itself, that is the first day; when in the knowledge of the firmament, which is the name given to the sky between the waters above and those beneath, that is the second day; when in the knowledge of the earth, and the sea, and all things that grow out of the earth, that is the third day; when in the knowledge of the greater and less luminaries, and all the stars, that is the fourth day; when in the knowledge of all animals that swim in the waters and that fly in the air, that is the fifth day; when in the knowledge of all animals that live on the earth, and of man himself, that is the sixth day.
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As I continue, I do want to point out that Augustine elaberates on the seperation between the light and the darkness, it is very interesting, and I recommend reading it. Here is the link. It is found in chapters 19-20, just scroll down. newadvent.org/fathers/120111.htm
 
Hi Friends,
Copland said
The abyss is nothing more than the invisible and unformed earth. The firmament is the sky.
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I am not criticising, but I feel that the abyss is the word to describe the context of the depth of interstellar space, seen as a reflection of the oceans.
The sky of course is a pure illusion, being just the view of deep space from the planet surface, but the science of the time was based upon nested crystal spheres, each sphere carrying a heavenly body.
The known heavely bodies were in those days,
1/ The Moon,
2/ The Sun,
3/ Mercury,
4/ Venus,
5/ Mars,
6/ Jupiter,
7/ Saturn,
8/ and the ‘fixed’ stars.
Thus, below the lowest shell, and thus below the sky, lies the Earth.
Between shell one, and shell two is the first heaven, and all the way up to between shell seven and shell eight, is the seventh heaven.
Beyond the eighth shell is the highest heaven, or the realm of G_d.
Of course we all know so much ‘better’ now, but much biblical symbology is based on this universe model, and without understanding this, many spurious ideas will be posited.

It is though a nice coincidence that modern physics posits a ten dimensional space, and if we subtract the three dimensions we perceive, we are left with seven, one for each heaven.
And if we take literally that G_d created time and space, then the realm of G_d must lie outside of those ten dimensions, or at least contain them, as the space beyond the eighth shell!

In the words of a certain taylor: ‘I believe in coincidences, but I do not trust them’. That is I do not trust them to be coincidences.

There is symbology in the Bible, but failing to understand the world view could result in attributing a symbology where there is none intended.

Indeed, this world view was still the accepted position up to the time of Galileo, and so mch of theology is based on this world view that its demise brought great discomfort to some, and indeed, still causes discomfort to some Muslims, who still teach ‘Flat Earth’.
I remember a discussion with the trainee navigators in Saudi Arabia, and being told that their instructors had to teach that: ‘The world is flat, but for navigational purposes, it can be treated as if it were a sphere.’
When I started to snigger, I was warned seriously not to, for this was not to be taken lightly.
 
Voco proTatiano
I am not criticising, but I feel that the abyss is the word to describe the context of the depth of interstellar space, seen as a reflection of the oceans.
The sky of course is a pure illusion, being just the view of deep space from the planet surface, but the science of the time was based upon nested crystal spheres, each sphere carrying a heavenly body.
The known heavely bodies were in those days,
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Thanks for your non-attack approach, it is appreciated. When I read 1:2 it appears to me that the focus is on earth alone, and its condition. But on the otherhand I do see room for speculation, since verse 2 could be including “heaven” too, and that being the abyss. St. Augustine made an interesting statement about this by referring to heaven and earth as their matter is unformed and distinguished, and being “like a seed of heaven and earth.”
 
Seamus,

Tertullian seemed to think that the deep was what was under the earth. Here is his quote from Against Hermogenes 31.
For the depth and the darkness underlay the earth. Since the deep was under the earth, and the darkness was over the deep, undoubtedly both the darkness and the deep were under the earth.
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St. Thomas Aquinas makes this statement in the Summa
“Darkness was upon the face of the deep” might be taken to mean the infinite mass of water, understood as the principle of all other bodies.
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Thanks!

I will be back with more questions.

Again, I want to thank you!!!
 
copland said:
Seamus,

Tertullian seemed to think that the deep was what was under the earth. Here is his quote from Against Hermogenes 31.[sign]
For the depth and the darkness underlay the earth. Since the deep was under the earth, and the darkness was over the deep, undoubtedly both the darkness and the deep were under the earth.[/sign]
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No-one here seems to get he idea of what the Earth was perceived to be like. It was clear that the crystal shells were complete spheres, for most of the eighth shell can be seen, even from fairly high lattitudes, so the depth of the Earth underfoot could not be infinite.
The conception seems to have been of a very thin layer, possibly not more than a few thousand feet thick, and if you digged deep enough, you would come to the other side, which was perceived, in many ways to be just like the upper surface. This was the under-world. The diameter of this chappatti like disk, was thought to be a few thousand miles.
Generally, what was beneath the Earth was thought to be in many ways, very like what was above it.
This of course conflicted with the ideas of up and down.
We know that this conflict does not exist, for the mass of the Earth defines gravity. They did not understand this, they thought the Earth had to rest upon something.
St. Thomas Aquinas makes this statement in the Summa[sign]“Darkness was upon the face of the deep” might be taken to mean the infinite mass of water, understood as the principle of all other bodies.[/sign]
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So Aquinas sees the Earth floating upon the deep, interpreting literally as water.
This follows from the ideas of waters above and below the Earth.

The pontifications of all these wise men need to be seen in the context of their world view.
 
Copland and Voco proTatiano

THANKS! THANKS! THANKS!!!

In your judgments, do the following passages say that God’s judgment is the deep? I believe they do. I am not sure, but believe, at least as of now.

Again, I want to thank you for your help.

Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss (teh•home’), while a mighty wind swept over the waters.

Genesis 49: 25 The God of your father, who helps you, God Almighty, who blesses you, with the blessings of the heavens above, the blessings of the abyss (teh•home’) that crouches below, The blessings of breasts and womb, 26 the blessings of fresh grain and blossoms, The blessings of the everlasting mountains, the delights of the eternal hills.

Deuteronomy 33: 13 Of Joseph he said: "Blessed by the LORD is his land with the best of the skies above and of the abyss (teh•home’) crouching beneath; 14 With the best of the produce of the year, and the choicest sheaves of the months; 15 With the finest gifts of the age-old mountains and the best from the timeless hills; 16 With the best of the earth and its fullness, and the favor of him who dwells in the bush.”

Psalm 36: 6 LORD, your love reaches to heaven; your fidelity, to the clouds. 7 Your justice is like the highest mountains; your judgments, like the mighty deep (teh•home’); all living creatures you sustain, LORD.

I Corinthians 2: 9 But as it is written: “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” 10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths (teh•home’) of God.

THANKS! THANKS! THANKS!
 
Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss (teh•home’), while a mighty wind swept over the waters.

Genesis 49: 25 The God of your father, who helps you, God Almighty, who blesses you, with the blessings of the heavens above, the blessings of the abyss (teh•home’) that crouches below, The blessings of breasts and womb, 26 the blessings of fresh grain and blossoms, The blessings of the everlasting mountains, the delights of the eternal hills.

Deuteronomy 33: 13 Of Joseph he said: "Blessed by the LORD is his land with the best of the skies above and of the abyss (teh•home’) crouching beneath; 14 With the best of the produce of the year, and the choicest sheaves of the months; 15 With the finest gifts of the age-old mountains and the best from the timeless hills; 16 With the best of the earth and its fullness, and the favor of him who dwells in the bush.”

Psalm 36: 6 LORD, your love reaches to heaven; your fidelity, to the clouds. 7 Your justice is like the highest mountains; your judgments, like the mighty deep (teh•home’); all living creatures you sustain, LORD.

Romans 11: 33 Oh, the depth (bathos) of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor?”

I Corinthians 2: 9 But as it is written: “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and
what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” 10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths (bathos) of God.
 
Sirach 24: 22 All this is true of the book of the Most High’s covenant, the law which Moses commanded us as an inheritance for the community of Jacob. 23 It overflows, like the Pishon, with wisdom-- like the Tigris in the days of the new fruits. 24 It runs over, like the Euphrates, with understanding, like the Jordan at harvest time. 25 It sparkles like the Nile with knowledge, like the Gihon at vintage time. 26 The first man never finished comprehending wisdom, nor will the last succeed in fathoming her. 27 For deeper than the sea are her thoughts; her counsels, than the great abyss.
 
Seamus_Sully said:
Copland and Voco proTatiano

THANKS! THANKS! THANKS!!!
Click to expand...
Hi Seamus,
This is from the hip. . .
In your judgments, do the following passages say that God’s judgment is the deep? I believe they do. I am not sure, but believe, at least as of now.
Click to expand...
I think not, see below.
Again, I want to thank you for your help.
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Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss (teh•home’), while a mighty wind swept over the waters.
Click to expand...
I think ‘mighty wind’ is a gross mistranslation. Context suggests that the KJV interpretation ‘Spirit of G_d’ is more likely correct.
Genesis 49: 25 The God of your father, who helps you, God Almighty, who blesses you, with the blessings of the heavens above, the blessings of the abyss (teh•home’) that crouches below,
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This is another literalism.
Why would a man crouch below something?
To support it of course!
Substitute for ‘that crouches below’, ‘that supports’.
Remember here that the chappatti Earth was thought to be afloat upon the waters of the deep below, and rain came from trhe waters of the deep above.
The blessings of breasts and womb, 26 the blessings of fresh grain and blossoms, The blessings of the everlasting mountains, the delights of the eternal hills.
Click to expand...
Deuteronomy 33: 13 Of Joseph he said: "Blessed by the LORD is his land with the best of the skies above and of the abyss (teh•home’) crouching beneath; 14 With the best of the produce of the year, and the choicest sheaves of the months; 15 With the finest gifts of the age-old mountains and the best from the timeless hills; 16 With the best of the earth and its fullness, and the favor of him who dwells in the bush.”
Click to expand...
Psalm 36: 6 LORD, your love reaches to heaven; your fidelity, to the clouds. 7 Your justice is like the highest mountains; your judgments, like the mighty deep (teh•home’); all living creatures you sustain, LORD.
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This is not saying that the LORD’s judgement has any properties other than bigness, when compared with the highest mountains, or mighty deep.
The mountains and the deep are given as examples of enormity.
I Corinthians 2: 9 But as it is written: “What eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and what has not entered the human heart, what God has prepared for those who love him,” 10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths (teh•home’) of God.
Click to expand...
Again this is figurative. We understand the idea of deep mysteries.
This is saying that even mysteries of unplumbable depth are clear to the Holy Spirit.
THANKS! THANKS! THANKS!
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I want to thanks for your time and thoughts, Voco proTatiano.

I am aware that these passages are using some sort of figures of speech.

I accept the teaching that all these figures have literal meaings, even if they are figures.

The figures are not literal, but have literal meanings.

I think that the figure “abyss” has a literal meaning.

I believe, don’t know, that the literal meaning of abyss is God’s judgments and or counsels.

Again, I am working to discern the meaning these Biblical figures.

I cannot thank you enough for your time and energy-- not to mention the peaceful attitudes that are needed to examine such sublime and supernatural revelations.

I believe these to be inspired–I hope that does not offend.

Again, I cannot thank you enough.

Seamus O’Sullivan
 
Seamus,

I ran onto another patristic insight to the Genesis 1:2 and 1:8 from St. John of Damascus. Here is the quotes.
*And darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the *
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Spirit of God* moved upon the face of the waters* Genesis 1:2 . For the deep is nothing else than a huge quantity of water whose limit man cannot comprehend.
The heaven of heaven, then, is the first heaven which is above the firmament. So here we have two heavens, for God called the firmament also Heaven
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Genesis 1:8 . And it is customary in the divine Scripture to speak of the air also as heavens, because we see it above us. Bless Him, it says, all you birds of the heaven, meaning of the air. For it is the air and not the heaven that is the region in which birds fly. So here we have three heavens, as the divine Apostle said 2 Corinthians 12:2 . But if you should wish to look upon the seven zones as seven heavens there is no injury done to the word of truth. For it is usual in the Hebrew tongue to speak of heaven in the plural, that is, as heavens, and when a Hebrew wishes to say heaven of heaven, he usually says heavens of heavens, and this clearly means heaven of heaven, which is above the firmament, and the waters which are above the heavens, whether it is the air and the firmament, or the seven zones of the firmament, or the firmament itself which are spoken of in the plural as heavens according to the Hebrew custom.
 
Seamus,

I have noticed that you ask some unique questions. What kind of studying are you doing? Is it for personal studies or something else? Just curious, I enjoy being asked!
 
Copland

I ask questions for myself and the students that I teach. I teach high school theology.

My theological understanding is simple: Love rules all of theology.

In other words, Love rules faith and all of the other parts of God’s grace.

My most favorite prayer can be found in the second Eucharistic pray: Make us grow in love!

Next, I believe that the Bible is the best interpreter of the Bible.

I am a Roman Catholic, and, as far as I know, that is Catholic.

I believe the Roman Church is the official interpreter of the Holy Bible. I do not want to be me own guide. I am not intelligent enough. Also, I am just too weak.

Next, I have studied a great deal about the four senses of Scripture.

I have studied Origen, Ambrose, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas and many others.

From what I have studied, the four senses are Christ Himself. Or I should say, in the manner in which I understand the four senses.

Next, the reason I ask you questions is that you are the best source I know to find out what the Fathers taught.

I would love to know how you do it. Your talent is worth billions upon billions of graces.

Next, I think that the official teaching on the early chapters of Genesis is that they are written with figures.

Also, I think that the official teaching of the Church is that the figures always have a literal meaning.

I think the literal can describe God, our soul and the relationship thereof. In other words, the literal can be about God, spiritual beings, and human beings.

I think that the figures are clarified in other parts of the Holy Bible.

One example: Star as used by St. Matthew, and angel by St. Luke. Then the combination of star and angel by St. John in the Revelation. Also, Wise men and shepherds. Also, Jesus teaches that thorns are anxieties of the world. The thorns of the curse in Genesis comes to mind.

With those examples, I do not know if I am correct, and that is why I am questioning.

Also, and this is big for me, the Holy Bible reveals God’s love from Alpha to Omega. When God created in the BEGINNING, that was love. The Heavenly city is filled with God–Who is Love.

Jesus is the BEGINNING and GOD so loved the world that He sent His SON.

I hope that helps understand my questioning. I love this idea: It is what we do not know that will give us light. What you can teach me is what will give additional light.

Your talent is a great gift from God. I hope and pray that you share it with us.

In God’s Infinite Love and Eternal Beauty (just to mention a few),

Seamus O’Sullivan
 
Seamus,

Thanks for the answer, and mega thanks for your compliments! You are too kind! You seem very zealous, and that just made me curious about what makes you tick. Zeal for the Scriptures and an open heart for truth seems to be rare anymore. Thanks again! I am looking foward to more dialogue! I find myself throughout the day pondering on some of the questions and answers on this sight, especially what you have posted lately, I enjoy that kind of stuff!
 
I believe that In The Beginning is speaking about the Word. I got the idea from the early Church.

Do this sound correct?

Thanks!!

Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters.

St. John 1: 1 In the beginning (archē) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be 4 through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; 5 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
N. B. B. The Septuagint uses the same word in Genesis 1: 1 and St. John 1: 1, that is, “archē”, I think.

Colossians 1: 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For in Him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through Him and for Him.

Revelation 1: 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty.”

Revelation 21: 6 He said to me, "They are accomplished. I (am) the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water.”

Revelation 22: 12 “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning (archē) and the end.”

St. John 8: 25 So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “What I told you from the beginning (archē). 26 I have much to say about you in condemnation. But the one who sent me is true, and what I heard from him I tell the world.” (The Latin translations of St. Augustine’s time reads: “I AM the Beginning.”)

Revelation 1: 17 When I caught sight of him, I fell down at his feet as though dead. He touched me with his right hand and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last, 18 the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.
 
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