Scholars raise concerns over Pope Francis remarks on how doctrine develops

[OneSheep]

The concept of mercy comes from the Old Testament and is grounded in the fall of man where humans through the fall have earned God’s wrath, so a work of mercy is in itself a conduit of God’s forgiveness and loving kindness towards those who do not merit it, but really merit punishment as a result of the fall.

This actually makes God’s mercy dependent on the fall. I get more of the impression that God’s mercy is a ramification of His Love, which flows from His being.

The whole concept of God’s wrath is completely turned upside down with the incarnation. God’s wrath is simply projected by man. God always forgives, as Christ showed us from the cross. The Gospel stands as an invitation to forgive in the way Jesus did from the cross, and in doing so we transcend the human compulsion to hold debts.

It amounts to returning the broken world to God’s providential plan of goodness for it.

Then we come to the question, “Why does God want goodness for the world?”

Take a look at this, (or did I post it already?):

The Truth Will Make You Free: Joseph Ratzinger Re-Thinks Anselm's Theology of Redemption

To anyone who looks more closely, the scriptural theology of the cross represents a real revolution as compared with the notions of expiation and redemption entertained by non-Christian religions…

In the New Testament the situation is almost completely reversed. It is not man who goes to God with a compensatory gift, but God who comes to man, in order to give to him.

In light of this, do you see a different direction of purpose?

 

[HarryStotle]

This actually makes God’s mercy dependent on the fall. I get more of the impression that God’s mercy is a ramification of His Love, which flows from His being.

God’s mercy is dependent on God’s love, but is the response of that love to the fall.

Think about the parable of the unforgiving servant.

“Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. Then his lord summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” (Matt 18:23-34)

The parable make it clear that God doesn’t ALWAYS forgive, because the king does not forgive the unmerciful servant. And the king explicitly says he forgave the debt BECAUSE “you besought me.” That means the forgiveness of the servant was dependent upon the servant recognizing his debt to the king and seeking forgiveness of that debt. So it isn’t the case that “God always forgives, as Christ showed us from the cross,” as you claim, but that his mercy and forgiveness are dependent upon two things. Our sincerely seeking his forgiveness (beseech his mercy) and our forgiving those who owe a debt to us (their trespasses explicitly against us.)

What is also clear is that by not having mercy upon his fellow servant the unforgiving servant did not appreciate that the King’s forgiveness was not owed to him simply because that is the way God’s love operates. So it isn’t the case that “God always forgives” completely disconnected from our state of guilt or awareness of that guilt and seeking forgiveness for it. If the servant didn’t owe a debt to the king there would have been nothing to forgive. The parable also shows that even if we seek forgiveness and receive it, if we show unwillingness to forgive others who have trespassed against us, we are not assured of God’s mercy and forgiveness. So God does not “always forgive” unconditionally.

Continued…

 

[HarryStotle]

Is the King’s revocation of his forgiveness and his wrath against the unforgiving servant a “mere projection” of the unforgiving servant’s own wrath back on God? That would be a very odd reading of the parable.

 

[OneSheep]

The parable make it clear that God doesn’t ALWAYS forgive, because the king does not forgive the unmerciful servant.

I’m glad you brought up this parable, as it always seemed a bit odd to me, even when I did agree with the literal message.

The priest who taught our scripture course explained that since the parable is a follow-up on Peter’s question, which was “how many times am I to forgive?” and Jesus’ answer was essentially “an infinite number of times”, the parable stands as a contradiction because the master only forgives once.

When Jesus says “so also my heavenly Father will treat you” what he is referring to is the fact that if we refuse to forgive someone, for any reason, we will only be able to project that God forgives us the same way, conditionally. For the person who believes in such conditional forgiving, they will not know God’s complete forgiveness, and therefore suffer the anxiety of never knowing whether God forgives or not. Basically, God always forgives, and we can only know God’s forgiveness by ourselves forgiving.

In the mean time, like they say in A.A, “Holding a grudge is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.”

Is the King’s revocation of his forgiveness and his wrath against the unforgiving servant a “mere projection” of the unforgiving servant’s own wrath back on God?

Yes, otherwise we have the King only forgiving one time, in direct conflict with the answer to Peter’s question, and contradicting the sermon on the mount, Mark11:25, and Jesus’ forgiveness from the cross.

Did you read what I linked by Cardinal Ratzinger? Are you more likely to see truth as the image of a “sinister God”? The god who gives and takes away? The image he calls “as false as it is pervasive”? Frankly, I think he was a bit hard on Anselm, but he makes a great point.

Have we beat this topic to death now?

 

[OneSheep]

On another thread on the topic, Simpleas brought up the Gospel story about the woman caught in adultery. “He who has no sin may cast the first stone”.

Who knows how many centuries there was a law saying that adultery was a capital offence? Yet over the years people realized that the penalty defeated the purpose of justice itself. Let’s look at this very important verse on the topic:

Mark 2:27
New International Version
Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”

Law is made for man. Justice itself, the drive for justice, is made to serve our wellbeing as a species. We have a history of creating laws or penalties that sometimes end up not serving us, they cause more problems than they solve, they enact a cruelty that changes the charity of society itself (i.e. public hangings), they enact vengeance more than they promote real conversion in the sinner.

Like the application of the DP for adultery, it takes centuries to learn that certain laws do more harm than good; and doctrine clearly develops as we as Church gain in wisdom, as we get a better grasp of revelation. This is not to say that the Spirit is not active over the centuries, quite the opposite. It does appear, though, that the faithful can only handle so much revelation at a time!

Therefore, as revelation unfolds, there are changes that shake the faith of those who clearly believe that man is made for the Sabbath.

And let us all be patient with those who believe that man is made for the Sabbath!