School

[ATeutonicKnight]

Why does modern society have it to where you need a college degree to do anything? Especially for being a Priest and a Friar? Don’t these people realize that most of the Friars and Priests back then couldn’t read? I just don’t understand why I need even a GED to become a Friar or Priest. It seems so useless. “We can’t let him pursue his God-given calling to preach to people because he didn’t do well in science and couldn’t pass”. It seems stupid to me. Saint John Vianney, patron Saint of Parish Priests, grew up on a farm. He was kicked out of seminary because he couldn’t learn the information he needed. But he still went on to become a Priest. If that situation happened today, one of the greatest Priests in history wouldn’t be allowed to be ordained, just because he was bad at school. See how stupid it sounds?

 

[runningdude]

While I suppose exceptions have always existed, generally speaking the clergy were among the few literate classes historically. Even the term “clerical work” refers to secretarial work that was formerly the exclusive domain of “clerics” hired by rich nobility, as priests, unlike their employers, could read and write in addition to celebrating the sacraments.

 

[TuAutem]

The academic work required to become a priest is some of the most difficult in the world, and has been since at least the council of Trent. So I don’t share your opinion on that count.

To be a lay brother, monk, or friar, however, it does seem to me to be quite unnecessary to require a college degree. (Although a high school degree or GED might be a good requirement–not as a proof of intelligence, but simply as a proof of having shown some ability to handle the discipline that religious life requires.)

I am sure there must be orders that do not require a degree for lay brothers.

 

[Stylites]

The academic work required to become a priest is some of the most difficult in the world, and has been since at least the council of Trent. So I don’t share your opinion on that count.

To be a lay brother, monk, or friar, however, it does seem to me to be quite unnecessary to require a college degree. (Although a high school degree or GED might be a good requirement–not as a proof of intelligence, but simply as a proof of having shown some ability to handle the discipline that religious life requires.)

I am sure there must be orders that do not require a degree for lay brothers.

Well said. Most vocations directors might view this type of query as a desire to escape discipline and effort. Calling an educational requirement for priests “stupid” would negate a vocation application, I would think, until a more mature attitude emerged.

 

[Chatter163]

Why does modern society have it to where you need a college degree to do anything? Especially for being a Priest and a Friar?

Already you are confusing priests and friars. They are NOT the same thing. And by “modern society,” do you mean bishops and seminaries, since they are the ones who actually set ordination requirements?

Don’t these people realize that most of the Friars and Priests back then couldn’t read?

No, they are completely ignorant of Church history. It’s a shame that they don’t have the background of a learned individual, such as yourself. :bowdown:

just don’t understand why I need even a GED to become a Friar or Priest. It seems so useless.

In the case of being a priest, one will be doing graduate-level academic work, so those silly professors and priests assume that the graduate students will already have completed college-level studies, to say nothing of high school.

“We can’t let him pursue his God-given calling to preach to people because he didn’t do well in science and couldn’t pass”. It seems stupid to me.

Wow, not even halfway through your post, and you’ve already called the idea that someone must demonstrate basic competencies both “useless” AND “stupid.” You are really on a roll, aren’t you? :tiphat:

Saint John Vianney, patron Saint of Parish Priests, grew up on a farm. He was kicked out of seminary because he couldn’t learn the information he needed. But he still went on to become a Priest. If that situation happened today, one of the greatest Priests in history wouldn’t be allowed to be ordained, just because he was bad at school.

There were obstacles to ordination then, and there are obstacles now. They may not always be the same obstacles, but future priests overcome them. In your case, there may be academic obstacles, but those may be small when compared to the obstacle of immaturity. :whacky:

See how stupid it sounds?

OK, “stupid” wins, defeating “useless,” 2-1. Now go study your science.

 

[Anna_Gregorach]

Saint John Vianney, patron Saint of Parish Priests, grew up on a farm. He was kicked out of seminary because he couldn’t learn the information he needed. But he still went on to become a Priest. If that situation happened today, one of the greatest Priests in history wouldn’t be allowed to be ordained, just because he was bad at school. See how stupid it sounds?

---

Saint John Vianney is living proof of how hard one must work --and study --in order to pursue God´s calling. He was indeed kicked out of seminary and yet came back to work and study harder so that he could be ordained. He is a true model of how any obstacles can be overcome with God´s grace. He knew his limitations so he asked the Holy Spirit to enlighten him and help him out so he could finish his studies.

Priesthood and the religious life are not a detour nor an option to go thru life without proper education. God bless you.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Why does modern society have it to where you need a college degree to do anything? Especially for being a Priest and a Friar? Don’t these people realize that most of the Friars and Priests back then couldn’t read? I just don’t understand why I need even a GED to become a Friar or Priest. It seems so useless. “We can’t let him pursue his God-given calling to preach to people because he didn’t do well in science and couldn’t pass”.

First off, priests were never illiterate. Priests must be able to read to celebrate Mass. Deacons (which all priests are before they become priests) must read the Gospel as that is one of their main functions, that is proclamation of the Word of God.

As has been pointed out, priests and friars are two different things. While one may be a friar and a priest, not all friars are priests.

Religious were always known in the Church for being highly educated. They started the university system. If you weren’t aware of it, the regalia worn at graduation was inspired by religious habits.

Before the council of Trent and for a period of time following it there were two classes of priests. Those who could celebrate Mass, perform Baptisms and Marriages. These priests were not as educated as the priests who could preach and hear confessions.

As pointed out earlier, this would fall under discipline and obedience.

Part of this also has to do with society today. A priest has to minister to a highly educated laity. How can they do so if they do not have a professional degree as the laity does?

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Already you are confusing priests and friars. They are NOT the same thing. And by “modern society,” do you mean bishops and seminaries, since they are the ones who actually set ordination requirements?

No, they are completely ignorant of Church history. It’s a shame that they don’t have the background of a learned individual, such as yourself. :bowdown:

In the case of being a priest, one will be doing graduate-level academic work, so those silly professors and priests assume that the graduate students will already have completed college-level studies, to say nothing of high school.

Wow, not even halfway through your post, and you’ve already called the idea that someone must demonstrate basic competencies both “useless” AND “stupid.” You are really on a roll, aren’t you? :tiphat:

There were obstacles to ordination then, and there are obstacles now. They may not always be the same obstacles, but future priests overcome them. In your case, there may be academic obstacles, but those may be small when compared to the obstacle of immaturity. :whacky:

OK, “stupid” wins, defeating “useless,” 2-1. Now go study your science.

Of course I know they’re not the same thing. I’ve looked into being both of them. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’m going to. That’s why I have this entire rant.

Usually I wouldn’t use words like that in such a redundant fashion, but it was three in the morning and I knew I was doing it. I just really didn’t care at that moment.

I wouldn’t say I’m immature. I’m getting sick of people saying this. Can’t I have an honest rant without being called immature? How about you rant about gay relationships and I tell you you’re immature for having an opinion on something, much like this thread is? I’m simply stating I don’t find the need for this and I think it’s unnecessary. I’m sorry for having a mind and opinion.

How can you call me immature when you say things like this at the end of your post? It seems to me you’re the adult and you’re acting like a twelve year old.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

First off, priests were never illiterate. Priests must be able to read to celebrate Mass. Deacons (which all priests are before they become priests) must read the Gospel as that is one of their main functions, that is proclamation of the Word of God.

As has been pointed out, priests and friars are two different things. While one may be a friar and a priest, not all friars are priests.

Religious were always known in the Church for being highly educated. They started the university system. If you weren’t aware of it, the regalia worn at graduation was inspired by religious habits.

Before the council of Trent and for a period of time following it there were two classes of priests. Those who could celebrate Mass, perform Baptisms and Marriages. These priests were not as educated as the priests who could preach and hear confessions.

As pointed out earlier, this would fall under discipline and obedience.

Part of this also has to do with society today. A priest has to minister to a highly educated laity. How can they do so if they do not have a professional degree as the laity does?

Once again, I REALIZE Friars are not always Priests. I was simply ranting about the fact that most of the time BOTH Friars AND Priests require a college degree…

 

[Joannm]

Today’s priests need to be highly educated because as another poster stated, they will most likely be ministering to a highly educated population, at least in my area. In order to preach properly and open up the readings to the people, it is important for a priest to know the scriptures not just from a faith perspective with a hermeneutical perspective so that they can provide sufficient exegesis on the texts. Proficiency in this requires not only good communication and writing skills but the ability to do research, which also comes in handy when teaching classes for parishioners.

A priest need to be sufficiently educated in ecclesial matters, including canon law and morality so that he can properly perform his duties as priest, pastor and confessor. Pastors today need to have knowledge of finances (which they don’t teach in the seminary so a good undergrad business or finance course is very helpful). Undergrad classes in psychology would be helpful. Classes in the arts can be very useful. Basically what I am saying is an all round good liberal arts education is practically necessary.

The other discipline that is absolutely necessary for study for the priesthood is philosophy. All theological study is grounded in philosophy and seminarians must have a number of courses in it before they can begin their theological studies.

Church history, liturgical studies (which includes a lot of historical background) and languages, especially Spanish in many areas of the US due to the growing Hispanic population, is necessary. Most seminaries will now be requiring Latin as well.

So you see, a good education is necessary if a priest in today’s society is going to be effective. Get your GED, begin to take college courses with an eye toward achieving the goal of priesthood.

BTW I know several priests who had very difficult times in the seminary because they were not good students or had learning disorders. They had tutors and were afforded extra time and effort by their professors. Some of them barely made it through, but because they persevered they were ordained and now some of them are pastors and are so happy for their intense seminary education.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Once again, I REALIZE Friars are not always Priests. I was simply ranting about the fact that most of the time BOTH Friars AND Priests require a college degree…

Which the rest of my post addressed and you have seemed to ignore.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Once again, I REALIZE Friars are not always Priests. I was simply ranting about the fact that most of the time BOTH Friars AND Priests require a college degree…

Regardless of your rant it is important to remember that no one has a right to enter religious life or to be ordained so the setting up of requirements for such a thing is not a crime against justice. You may believe that it is unfair but fairness is not an issue that the Church looks upon, nor is life ever fair.

A person may feel a call to religious life and/or ordination but it is the Church (through bishops and religious superiors) that confirms these calls. If the Church does not call one to orders or to enter religious life, then the call does not exist regardless of how a person may feel.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

First off, priests were never illiterate. Priests must be able to read to celebrate Mass. Deacons (which all priests are before they become priests) must read the Gospel as that is one of their main functions, that is proclamation of the Word of God.

As has been pointed out, priests and friars are two different things. While one may be a friar and a priest, not all friars are priests.

Religious were always known in the Church for being highly educated. They started the university system. If you weren’t aware of it, the regalia worn at graduation was inspired by religious habits.

Before the council of Trent and for a period of time following it there were two classes of priests. Those who could celebrate Mass, perform Baptisms and Marriages. These priests were not as educated as the priests who could preach and hear confessions.

As pointed out earlier, this would fall under discipline and obedience.

Part of this also has to do with society today. A priest has to minister to a highly educated laity. How can they do so if they do not have a professional degree as the laity does?

On your note, I don’t think you understand where the world is at right now. One in one hundred people go to college. And now, thanks to the economy, even less people will go. There’s been such a drop rate already that businesses are considering lowering their standards so they can hire more people. Besides, the smartest person I know (Whom constructed the Black Hawk by the way), finished high school and then he taught himself. He put engineers with all of their fancy degrees to shame. That in itself proves college is unneeded in the first place. I’m not saying there’s no need for Seminary, because obviously one cannot teach himself to become a Priest, I’m simply saying making the requirement to go to college to become a Priest is unnecessary. In many places they allow you to go to seminary for eight years instead, which is definitely the better route regarding how expensive college is getting at such a high rate. When my sister went to Benedictine college it was 20,000 a year. Now, in just two short years, it’s 33,000. Tell me it’s that important, especially now that I don’t have the money.

 

[Chatter163]

On your note, I don’t think you understand where the world is at right now. One in one hundred people go to college. And now, thanks to the economy, even less people will go. There’s been such a drop rate already that businesses are considering lowering their standards so they can hire more people.

This is part of why your maturity has been called in to question. You, obviously still in school, make blanket statements, telling adults that they “don’t understand where the world is at right now.” Believe me, we know. We are dealing with mortgages and increasing health care costs, and worry about being laid off. We are well aware of where the world is now, thank you.

Then you make the erroneous claim (n the USA, at least) that only “one in one hundred people go to college.” Not only is that number patently absurd (the number is a little more than one-third of all high school students, including dropouts, and nearly half of all high school graduates go to SOME type of college training), but college enrollment numbers have been increasing during the recession. Many folks have stayed in college and others have gone in to grad school, hoping to buy time while the economy improves, or at least have more training with which to enter the work force. Business do not lower their standards. See finaid.org/educators/20100816countercyclicality.pdf

Now just take a breath and, if you are truly trying to understand something, then ask us honest questions, and listen with an open mind and heart. If your purpose is merely to vent, then I would suggest you take it to Facebook.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

On your note, I don’t think you understand where the world is at right now. One in one hundred people go to college. And now, thanks to the economy, even less people will go. There’s been such a drop rate already that businesses are considering lowering their standards so they can hire more people. Besides, the smartest person I know (Whom constructed the Black Hawk by the way), finished high school and then he taught himself. He put engineers with all of their fancy degrees to shame. That in itself proves college is unneeded in the first place. I’m not saying there’s no need for Seminary, because obviously one cannot teach himself to become a Priest, I’m simply saying making the requirement to go to college to become a Priest is unnecessary. In many places they allow you to go to seminary for eight years instead, which is definitely the better route regarding how expensive college is getting at such a high rate. When my sister went to Benedictine college it was 20,000 a year. Now, in just two short years, it’s 33,000. Tell me it’s that important, especially now that I don’t have the money.

I am going to touch on one thing because we totally disagree on the rest.

Tell me how going to seminary for eight years is different than going to College for four years and then Major Seminary for four year.

Now another question. What can a religious do with out a high school diploma that will support his community? What can a religious with only a high school diploma do that will support his community?

As for the cost of school, that is a legitimate question.

There are religious communities that will accept candidates who have student loan debt.

 

[Bluegoat]

It strikes me that during the periods when clergy were relatively uneducated, it actually caused quite a few problems. I don’t know if that is something to be encouraged.

But it is also the case that in the past religious orders were active in educating people to the degree they thought necessary.

In my Anglican diocese a candidate for ordination needs an undergraduate degree. If he’s then accepted by the diocese his seminary training is paid for. There are also bursaries to help people get the undergraduate degree. I would be pretty surprised if that also wasn’t the case in Catholic settings.

I’m interested in friars and monks though. I wouldn’t have thought that university work was really a necessary pre-requisite in all cases. A trade would be just as useful for some I would think.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It strikes me that during the periods when clergy were relatively uneducated, it actually caused quite a few problems. I don’t know if that is something to be encouraged.

This is true. After the Council of Trent, at the General Chapter of 1564 the Order of Carmel passed a decree saying “Novices should not be hindered from studying and are not to be admitted to profession unless they can read, sing and speak Latin properly.”

This blows a hole in the beginning rant of this thread.

But it is also the case that in the past religious orders were active in educating people to the degree they thought necessary.

In my Anglican diocese a candidate for ordination needs an undergraduate degree. If he’s then accepted by the diocese his seminary training is paid for. There are also bursaries to help people get the undergraduate degree. I would be pretty surprised if that also wasn’t the case in Catholic settings.

Yes, all religious institutes cover costs of education past what they require for entry.

Dioceses vary.

I’m interested in friars and monks though. I wouldn’t have thought that university work was really a necessary pre-requisite in all cases. A trade would be just as useful for some I would think.

This varies by community.

I will ask again, how can a friar with a trade help support his community when the ministries the community is involved in does not include trade labor?

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

This is true. After the Council of Trent, at the General Chapter of 1564 the Order of Carmel passed a decree saying “Novices should not be hindered from studying and are not to be admitted to profession unless they can read, sing and speak Latin properly.”

This blows a hole in the beginning rant of this thread.

Yes, all religious institutes cover costs of education past what they require for entry.

Dioceses vary.

This varies by community.

I will ask again, how can a friar with a trade help support his community when the ministries the community is involved in does not include trade labor?

Actually, many Friaries don’t require a college degree (The Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word, for instance). You seem to forget that Friaries teach the postulates, all the way up through their final vows, and then they take philosophy classes after that. You act like college is the only way to learn.

Precisely. Read Latin, read, and write. Obviously I can do two of these things, and I’ve studied Latin before. It’s not too hard.

But did I say I wasn’t going to do the school? You people act like I’m going to rebel against the church because I have to get my GED. I plan on getting it. I’m studying to get it. Why can’t I have a simple rant? Everyone needs to blow some steam sometime. Apparently it’s written in sacred scripture that people cannot express their sorrows.

 

[TuAutem]

I’m so tempted to say, “if you think you’ve got to put up with stupid rules now, just wait until you enter the religious life!”

In all seriousness though, I’ll be praying for you to persevere and hope you go on to become a fine friar. Maybe you can view having to do the GED work as getting a taste of the vow of obedience ahead of time. Put a spiritual twist on it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Actually, many Friaries don’t require a college degree (The Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word, for instance). You seem to forget that Friaries teach the postulates, all the way up through their final vows, and then they take philosophy classes after that. You act like college is the only way to learn.

I have said that it varies by community.

Let me ask you this, where do they get these philosophy classes? The requirements for ordination in the United States is the Masters of Divinity and the religious communities have signed off on this.

Precisely. Read Latin, read, and write. Obviously I can do two of these things, and I’ve studied Latin before. It’s not too hard.

But did I say I wasn’t going to do the school? You people act like I’m going to rebel against the church because I have to get my GED. I plan on getting it. I’m studying to get it. Why can’t I have a simple rant? Everyone needs to blow some steam sometime. Apparently it’s written in sacred scripture that people cannot express their sorrows.

You stated, in your rant, that priests in the past could not read.

Which is it?

You can have a simple rant but be prepared for the inaccuracies of it to be challenged.