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seagal
Guest
Actually, the mind is made up of consciousness, subconsciousness, and unconsciousness.
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Bahman
Guest
They have to be.
Could you experience something which is formless? No. Is mind formless? Yes. Hence you cannot experience your mind. We however are sure that mind exist. Where? It cannot exist in our objective world no matter how hard you try. It only can affect our objective world hence we indirectly deduce that it does exist. We are wrongly call our consciousness as mind. The consciousness is simply a reflection of our objective world as it is presented to mind, we then wrongly assign that to mind which is not.
Because they have form and mind is formless so they cannot exist in the same place. One lives in the world of forms lets call it external world and one lives in formless world lets call it internal with the border which is our consciousness.
Because you equate consciousness to mind which is not correct. Your memories, all your life experiences, your thoughts, etc they all exist in your mind formlessly.
Have you ever notice how things pop up to your consciousness when you are thinking of a subject matter? They are all delivered by subconsciousness mind, storing things, recalling a piece of thought or feeling when it is necessary, and many other things… Could you claim that all this are done with consciousness mind? If it is so you have very strong conscious mind otherwise you have very strong subconscious mind.
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seagal
Guest
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According to psychologists, the conscious mind is our awareness of ourselves and our surroundings. What you said goes against psychological study. This may be your way of defining the mind but it’s not the commonly accepted way.
I agree.
I can agree with this also, that is exactly how the subconscious minds works.
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Bahman
Guest
How many topics you can consciously think of in each moment? One. What then take care of thoughts sorting bringing the right thought into your conscious mind? Subconscious mind. What is the duty of conscious mind then? It allows that things solely to being experienced when it is needed so it can be memorized by subconscious mind. Our conscious minds are then Epiphenomena to what we call deep thinking unless you could claim that your conscious mind is capable of holding many topics at a time working on all of them, derive the right thing from scattered ideas which are floating in your conscious mind etc. Are your conscious mind has all these titles, then you are super-conscious person that I doubt.
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
Incorrect, we don’t put reality and truth up for a consensus vote. Access to the Truth is the result of correct philosophical analysis and/or Divine Revelation. Not all people have been exposed to the truth, some reject it, usually for ideological reasons.
You have a soul, you are aware of who you are, what you are doing, what you are thinking. That is you acting through your soul.
Also, there is one world, you know that world directly by your reflection on what you receive from that world through the senses. What goes on in your mind is not a separate world. Nor is it subjective in any ontological sense, it is an accurate representation of the external reality. But it is all one world. Your mind is a part of the real world. The only difference is that we know the external world by the action of the intellect and senses. One should not use the word " subjective " to describe the operations or content of the mind. The only time the operations or content of the mind could be described " subjective " is when we make judgments not based on reality and truth but upon personal prejudices.
We do not live in Schroeding’s box!!! What happens to the quanta when it is disturbed by laboratory apparatus has absolutely nothing to do with our daily lives or with reality as lived and experienced everyone.
Linus2nd.
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GEddie
Guest
You shouldn’t need philosophy to be aware of your soul. That would be like needing science to show that you have a body!
You are your soul; among other aspects, a conscious mind and an emotional “heart;” neither of which are part of your solid, biological body.
Before the psychological revolution of the 1900s (and the word “psychology” itself means “soul study”!!!) it was understood that these nonphysical layers of a human being comprised his/her soul. It was not until current times that the word “soul” became a loaded religious term.
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Linusthe2nd
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Yes, common sense can understand that the soul exists. But without either philosophical proof or Divine Revelation, one would not have a correct understanding of its nature. If Plato, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas and the Church had not written so much on the soul, psychology would never have a concept of its nature. And even with their help, many psychologies are way off base.
Linus2nd
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seagal
Guest
I’m not exactly sure what you mean here. Our conscious minds are aware of what’s going on, both externally and internally. If you’re aware of doing something then that’s your conscious mind at work. That includes thinking. I don’t know about you but I’m aware of being conscious of many things at once; for example I’m aware of thinking of this response, aware of typing the correct keys, aware of the tv in the other room, aware of the sound of traffic outside. I’ll concede that my mind is aware of these things one at a time rather than all at once, but it happens so quickly that it seems instantaneous. My conscious mind is also aware of other unrelated thoughts bubbling up from my subconscious. If it weren’t for my conscious mind I wouldn’t be thinking at all, let alone deeply thinking. Hardly “epiphenomena” (I admit I had to look that up: "An epiphenomenon is a secondary phenomenon that occurs alongside a primary phenomenon. "). Conscious thought is primary, unless we’re sleeping or in deep meditation. Maybe you meant memories, which are held in our subconscious?
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Bahman
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Why not? Why truth should manifest itself in different form? There are simple fact they are striving to, such as we are simple living being subjected to gradual decay, our state of life completely depends on our body which is subject to decay, hence everything finishes upon the death. What is wrong with this simple philosophical framework which are based on facts each individual can experience and we have common understanding of it?
To me philosophy cannot complete the job without science and vice versa since the philosophy is an attempt to acquire knowledge of what is simple from what is composed and science is an attempt to acquire knowledge of what is composed from what is simple. The question like what life, soul, etc are the subject of metaphysics which neither belong to philosophy nor to science but both.
So it is person dependent. I don’t understand why you said that I am incorrect.
Not all people are going to buy that unless unless the soul, our magic box which everything resides within could become objective to itself which is logically impossible.
That is a indirect way of deducing the presence of an intellect. Scientist however argue that intellect is simply emerges as the matter take a very specific form. They have numerous example which support their idea: liquid, superconductor, glasses, many others. How could you show that the fact which applies to almost everything does not apply to living being?
Our decision live in a box so called soul. Where they could be otherwise? How they could manifest themselves into actuality if they don’t reside somewhere? You could say that a decision is the result of collective thinking and emerges when all necessary component are in the place, but that is scientific way of thinking. Don’t you agree with this fact that new property can emerges from simple property when everything is in the right place?
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Bahman
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We are a little different in using word internal and external. Anything that could be experienced is external to intellect including our thinking. That is correct that only the person is aware of some sort of thinking, but intellect is one layer deeper than what is experienced hence even thinking is external to intellect.
That is correct but the main question is what is main work of consciousness? Let me illustrate further: one need three basic facts in any decision making namely, be aware of current state, being aware of appropriate operators, and what would be the outcome given the current state and operators. Let me give you an example, you are driving on a road and suddenly something pops up in front of you, that is basically current state. You have options to avoid this situation namely turn right or left, these are basically your operations. What is outcome, you can avoid the obstacle that popped up in the road. The problem here is that you can only be conscious of one of these thing at the spot and you need all of them to perform the proper action hence consciousness cannot dose not cause the action hence it is epiphenomena, it is necessary but it is not sufficient for an action. That is in fact the duty of subconsciousness to perform the action.
That is the luxury granted with subconsciousness that we can be aware of many things at the same time to a minimal level that guarantee we can do several things at the same time. You need to overload consciousness/focal focus to see how weak it is: just try to think of two subject matter at the same time or try to read a book that you are not aware of the content and listening to a music that you are not aware of the lyric. You will see that you cannot do both at the same time. This means that we can be just aware of one thing when the content is unknown to our subconsciousness hence we can do one thing when focal focus is needed.
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seagal
Guest
This is where psychology disagrees with you. Thinking is what you do at the conscious level, not subconsciously. There may be different layers of consciousness, I don’t know.
Again, psychology disagrees. Actions are performed at a conscious level, even if it’s a split second decision. Unless you’re talking about what is called “muscle memory” – when an action is performed over and over again and is engraved in memory. Athletes, musicians, factory workers, anyone who trains, practices and performs the same motions until they can do them without thinking is using muscle memory. Like walking. You don’t have to think about picking up one foot, moving it a certain distance forward, putting your weight on it to lift up the other foot, etc. etc. This is your subconscious at work. But if you are suddenly caught in a situation where you need to act instantly, unless you’ve trained excessively enough to develop a muscle memory, it’s your conscious mind that determines what action needs to be taken, and then tells your muscles to perform that action. All in a fraction of a second.
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Bahman
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I was not talking about muscle memory. You mentioned that you don’t know. That is a good start for thinking. I recommend you to read this.
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GEddie
Guest
There are different layers of consciousness.
At bottom, consciousness is a biological function, governed by the reticular activating system (RAS) in our brain stem, just above the neck. This is the area that keeps our bodies conscious. It is also the area where a good knock to the head, or neck, takes effect.
Consciousness of the external world is a step up, and is mediated by the eyes, nose, skin, etc, and the brain areas that operate these senses.
The “conscious mind,” or consciousness of thought, is another level altogether.
ICXC NIKA.
At bottom, consciousness is a biological function, governed by the reticular activating system (RAS) in our brain stem, just above the neck. This is the area that keeps our bodies conscious. It is also the area where a good knock to the head, or neck, takes effect.
Consciousness of the external world is a step up, and is mediated by the eyes, nose, skin, etc, and the brain areas that operate these senses.
The “conscious mind,” or consciousness of thought, is another level altogether.
ICXC NIKA.
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Bahman
Guest
Thank you for your remark. We are mostly interested in conscious mind here. Are there many layers of conscious minds which is responsible for thinking?
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empther
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You change topic with every post. :hey_bud:
In this way you really don’t have to defend any position since you’re always on a new one.
I’m surprised that people fall for this.
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Bahman
Guest
I am wondering why you bother and I didn’t change the topic. It is related and it should be discussed. How many layer of conscious mind do you have? One. How possibly you can think of different things at the same time, making decisions which involves several factor, etc? You see it is about decision, in another word free will, so it is a related topic.
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GEddie
Guest
There is only one conscious mind per body.
Conscious thinking is a process centered in our heads. While we can think of different things in rapid succession, there is only one stream of thought going on.
ICXC NIKA
Conscious thinking is a process centered in our heads. While we can think of different things in rapid succession, there is only one stream of thought going on.
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Bahman
Guest
That is correct and it is what I wanted to hear. I have a little problem with this picture though since I don’t understand what sustain the stream of thought going on. It cannot be consciousness since consciousness is well occupied with thought experience.
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GEddie
Guest
The nature of mind is to operate the stream of thought; just as the nature of eyes is to see, and that of the limbs is to move.
As long as one is alive and his/her body is conscious, there will be a stream of thought.
One could say that like the (bodily) consciousness, the stream of thought or mind is “sustained” by the breath in the body.
ICXC NIKA.
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Bahman
Guest
You give the breath higher mark than subconsciousness?
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