Sci-fi and politics

[TheDoors]

So…
I was watching a show that I’ve come to very much enjoy, “Battlestar Galatica” last night before turning in. And the focus of the episode is a young lady who came from one ship (which is ruled by one set of planetary law) to another (which, of course, follows another set) in order to obtain an abortion. Under the laws of her home ship the young lady, being under the age of consent, is the property of her parents. As her home ship is populated by a very right-leaning religious people, they would, of course, not allow her to have an abortion.

Now, backstory and plot aside, I found something… well, worth mentioning. One of the biggest plot points in the whole episode was the wanton cruelty and injustice that existed because her parents “owned” the girl, and could thus limit her liberty at their whim. The fact that she escaped to a place where she was free to have an abortion was shown as a very clear victory. But the idea that she was perpetrating an enormiously cruel injustice to her own child wasn’t even glossed-over, but completely ignored. It has me a bit cranky to see that treating one person as property is obviously wrong, but treating another as property is perfectly legitimate. Perhaps it’s because we don’t see the child dressed in a hospital gown weeping on an examination table.

Thoughts?

 

[Contarini]

So…
I was watching a show that I’ve come to very much enjoy, “Battlestar Galatica” last night before turning in. And the focus of the episode is a young lady who came from one ship (which is ruled by one set of planetary law) to another (which, of course, follows another set) in order to obtain an abortion. Under the laws of her home ship the young lady, being under the age of consent, is the property of her parents. As her home ship is populated by a very right-leaning religious people, they would, of course, not allow her to have an abortion.

Now, backstory and plot aside, I found something… well, worth mentioning. One of the biggest plot points in the whole episode was the wanton cruelty and injustice that existed because her parents “owned” the girl, and could thus limit her liberty at their whim. The fact that she escaped to a place where she was free to have an abortion was shown as a very clear victory. But the idea that she was perpetrating an enormiously cruel injustice to her own child wasn’t even glossed-over, but completely ignored. It has me a bit cranky to see that treating one person as property is obviously wrong, but treating another as property is perfectly legitimate. Perhaps it’s because we don’t see the child dressed in a hospital gown weeping on an examination table.

Thoughts?

Indeed. But BSG’s attitude to abortion is a bit more complex than that. In the episode you describe, Roslin decides to ban abortion throughout the fleet, though the reason isn’t concern for unborn life but for the survival of humanity.

Perhaps even more significantly, a few episodes before that one you have the episode in which they want to abort Sharon and Helo’s hybrid baby, a baby who turns out to represent humanity’s hope for survival in many ways (perhaps I’m giving away too much there, though I think by the point you’ve reached something like this is clear).

I won’t deny that BSG is basically “pro-choice” in its assumptions, but as with other moral issues it presents a pretty complex picture.

Edwin

 

[JK8619]

I am not too surprised by things like that. Glorifying immorality is pretty common in all forms of media today.

You should stick with the original BSG from the 70s. Less immorality and better writing/acting.

 

[J_Peterson]

I won’t deny that BSG is basically “pro-choice” in its assumptions, but as with other moral issues it presents a pretty complex picture.

The writers are Mormon so I’m not sure I’d say they are pro-choice. A lot of that show was influenced by Mormonism. I was shocked that Momonism is so sci-fi.

 

[edwest2]

So…
I was watching a show that I’ve come to very much enjoy, “Battlestar Galatica” last night before turning in. And the focus of the episode is a young lady who came from one ship (which is ruled by one set of planetary law) to another (which, of course, follows another set) in order to obtain an abortion. Under the laws of her home ship the young lady, being under the age of consent, is the property of her parents. As her home ship is populated by a very right-leaning religious people, they would, of course, not allow her to have an abortion.

Now, backstory and plot aside, I found something… well, worth mentioning. One of the biggest plot points in the whole episode was the wanton cruelty and injustice that existed because her parents “owned” the girl, and could thus limit her liberty at their whim. The fact that she escaped to a place where she was free to have an abortion was shown as a very clear victory. But the idea that she was perpetrating an enormiously cruel injustice to her own child wasn’t even glossed-over, but completely ignored. It has me a bit cranky to see that treating one person as property is obviously wrong, but treating another as property is perfectly legitimate. Perhaps it’s because we don’t see the child dressed in a hospital gown weeping on an examination table.

Thoughts?

Did they actually use the word “property”? If so, that was wrong and shows a bias, and propaganda message, by the writer(s). If not, all young people who are under the age of consent, need consent in the real world to get a major medical procedure done.

The fact that getting an abortion anyway was presented as a victory and the death of the child ignored, reinforces the fact that science fiction is being used to further the pro-Death and even anti-Parent agenda. As an aside, I’m tired of seeing TV shows where at least one parent is a moron or the teenage daughter is smarter than her mom. By that I mean, not in a helpful way, but in a “Mom? Are you stupid or what!?” kind of way.

I can’t stand Battlestar because (a) they have found an alternative to the word F*** and make it sound normal, (b) alcoholism as, you know, just something people do/have, and (c) for a lack of logic in some cases.

As someone who has written SF and who works with professional writers, your work will influence others. It’s not rare for the company I work for to get e-mails, phone calls and even letters from people who tell us our fictional books helped them get through a rough time, or encouraged them or even gave them the confidence to pursue their current career.

We strive to be pro-family and our heroes are heroes in every sense of the word, not guys who beat up people or the only way you can tell they’re heroes is because they’re just a little less brutal and racked up a lower body count than the “bad” guy in the story.

Peace,
Ed

 

[wmw]

In many ways I enjoyed the new BattleStar Galatica precisely, because it shows a civilization that attempts to flourish, but manages to be destroyed by its own accomplishments. Neither science nor religions are set up as the “right answer”. Through its science was less of a caricature, or maybe a more serious caricature walking about as cylons, than its religions. The morality is definitely setup to be something the general (non-Catholic) audience would identify with including much of the culture of death, but this does “fit-in” with the generally morbid and morally infantile situation. I won’t talk too much about the resolution only the great conflict to be resolved isn’t so much this war between humans and cylons, but how to end the cycle of self destruction that seems to come about by technological growth without a solid moral foundation that would preclude enslaving or destroying any free thinking beings by others. I understand the comments of edwest2 and much should be done to make sci-fi more family friendly. I never introduced the show to my 15 year old precisely for his reasons.

 

[Contarini]

The writers are Mormon so I’m not sure I’d say they are pro-choice. A lot of that show was influenced by Mormonism. I was shocked that Momonism is so sci-fi.

Were the writers of the “re-imagined” series Mormon? I thought the creator of the original show was Mormon, and that the reimagined show just used the Mormon themes because they were there in the source material. I don’t think Ron Moore is a Mormon.

Edwin

 

[TheDoors]

Did they actually use the word “property”? If so, that was wrong and shows a bias, and propaganda message, by the writer(s). If not, all young people who are under the age of consent, need consent in the real world to get a major medical procedure done.

The fact that getting an abortion anyway was presented as a victory and the death of the child ignored, reinforces the fact that science fiction is being used to further the pro-Death and even anti-Parent agenda. As an aside, I’m tired of seeing TV shows where at least one parent is a moron or the teenage daughter is smarter than her mom. By that I mean, not in a helpful way, but in a “Mom? Are you stupid or what!?” kind of way.

I can’t stand Battlestar because (a) they have found an alternative to the word F*** and make it sound normal, (b) alcoholism as, you know, just something people do/have, and (c) for a lack of logic in some cases.

As someone who has written SF and who works with professional writers, your work will influence others. It’s not rare for the company I work for to get e-mails, phone calls and even letters from people who tell us our fictional books helped them get through a rough time, or encouraged them or even gave them the confidence to pursue their current career.

We strive to be pro-family and our heroes are heroes in every sense of the word, not guys who beat up people or the only way you can tell they’re heroes is because they’re just a little less brutal and racked up a lower body count than the “bad” guy in the story.

Peace,
Ed

Well Ed, for your objections…I can say that the first is rather common in every branch of the military that I’ve encountered. And I will note that the profanity seems to be MUCH more prevalant in the armed ships than the civilian ships. Likewise for the addictions. It’s one of the more realistic things I see in the series, to be honest. And it can be hard telling who is the good guy in real life as well during bad times.

I have Definately noticed the “Dad is a moron” theme in many shows and movies. You never seem to see the wise, quiet father in the center of the family. But then, I’ve noticed a rather solid campaign against men in many, many shows, books, magazines, advertiesments, shapes in the clouds…

 

[edwest2]

“It is in your nature to destroy yourselves.”

Terminator from Terminator 2.

Across all media, including what is still wrongly called “comedy,” the strong attitude that death is good, that there is no God, that “There is no such thing as bad language,” (Louis Black) and that “There’s no one - up there.” George Carlin.

You grow up, get a job cause you need to pay the bills, get high, have sex with whoever and die - to nothing. That is social anarchy, that is nihilism and radical individualism where the individual is god and no one - nobody - can tell him to do anything.

In the past, Science Fiction was about solving problems, exploration, helping people through technology and building a better world. NOT careening through life and accidentally bumping into people and situations that may or may not be good for you. With the driving philosophy going back to the Hippies, “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.”

Take the original Star Trek. True friendship, willing to lay down your life for your friends, intelligence, analysis, deduction, wit and the willingness to take on threats with well thought out plans, and a touch of humor. That is the kind of science-fiction I want, or the original, first two Star Wars movies. Even on the design level, before the Enterprise, spaceships were usually tubes with a pointed end and the opposite end had fins and spit fire, with the occasional saucer shape.

So I don’t buy contemporary SF. In the 1980s, my company received Asimov and Analog magazines for free. Most of the writing was mediocre, with only one writer who was quite good. Years later, she received an award or two, but I look at SF paperbacks today and nothing catches my eye or a few have this retro look. Then they started to add sexuality to the stories, so I just stopped reading them.

It’s a shame - a real shame - that instead of stories for all ages, they’re injecting immorality, inappropriate sexuality and “dark” themes into most fictional media today. They can keep it. I don’t want it.

Peace,
Ed

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Odd, I think I have watched every episode of that series, and I don’t remember that one

So…
I was watching a show that I’ve come to very much enjoy, “Battlestar Galatica” last night before turning in. And the focus of the episode is a young lady who came from one ship (which is ruled by one set of planetary law) to another (which, of course, follows another set) in order to obtain an abortion. Under the laws of her home ship the young lady, being under the age of consent, is the property of her parents. As her home ship is populated by a very right-leaning religious people, they would, of course, not allow her to have an abortion.

Now, backstory and plot aside, I found something… well, worth mentioning. One of the biggest plot points in the whole episode was the wanton cruelty and injustice that existed because her parents “owned” the girl, and could thus limit her liberty at their whim. The fact that she escaped to a place where she was free to have an abortion was shown as a very clear victory. But the idea that she was perpetrating an enormiously cruel injustice to her own child wasn’t even glossed-over, but completely ignored. It has me a bit cranky to see that treating one person as property is obviously wrong, but treating another as property is perfectly legitimate. Perhaps it’s because we don’t see the child dressed in a hospital gown weeping on an examination table.

Thoughts?

 

[TheDoors]

Odd, I think I have watched every episode of that series, and I don’t remember that one

Second season, I believe. Or early in the third. I want to say about the 33rd episode.

 

[tabycat]

I am not too surprised by things like that. Glorifying immorality is pretty common in all forms of media today.

You should stick with the original BSG from the 70s. Less immorality and better writing/acting.

I am more of a fan of the original BSG, and I found the ‘new and (name removed by moderator)roved’ the reimaged’ one boring.

 

[tabycat]

Were the writers of the “re-imagined” series Mormon? I thought the creator of the original show was Mormon, and that the reimagined show just used the Mormon themes because they were there in the source material. I don’t think Ron Moore is a Mormon.

Edwin

Glen Larson (the creator of the original BSG) was Mormon, There was some Mormon ideas in the series (like being ‘sealed’ [not married]).

PS If you want to read good sci-fi, IMO, try Andre Norton.:tiphat:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Did they actually use the word “property”? If so, that was wrong and shows a bias, and propaganda message, by the writer(s). If not, all young people who are under the age of consent, need consent in the real world to get a major medical procedure done.

The fact that getting an abortion anyway was presented as a victory and the death of the child ignored, reinforces the fact that science fiction is being used to further the pro-Death and even anti-Parent agenda. As an aside, I’m tired of seeing TV shows where at least one parent is a moron or the teenage daughter is smarter than her mom. By that I mean, not in a helpful way, but in a “Mom? Are you stupid or what!?” kind of way.

I can’t stand Battlestar because (a) they have found an alternative to the word F*** and make it sound normal, (b)** alcoholism as, you know, just something people do/have**, and (c) for a lack of logic in some cases.

As someone who has written SF and who works with professional writers, your work will influence others. It’s not rare for the company I work for to get e-mails, phone calls and even letters from people who tell us our fictional books helped them get through a rough time, or encouraged them or even gave them the confidence to pursue their current career.

We strive to be pro-family and our heroes are heroes in every sense of the word, not guys who beat up people or the only way you can tell they’re heroes is because they’re just a little less brutal and racked up a lower body count than the “bad” guy in the story.

Peace,
Ed

Actually alcoholism caused major problems for one of the main characters (in BSG), and perfect heroes are boring.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Well Ed, for your objections…I can say that the first is rather common in every branch of the military that I’ve encountered. And I will note that the profanity seems to be MUCH more prevalant in the armed ships than the civilian ships. Likewise for the addictions. It’s one of the more realistic things I see in the series, to be honest. And it can be hard telling who is the good guy in real life as well during bad times.

I have Definately noticed the “Dad is a moron” theme in many shows and movies. You never seem to see the wise, quiet father in the center of the family. But then, I’ve noticed a rather solid campaign against men in many, many shows, books, magazines, advertiesments, shapes in the clouds…

Actually Captain Adama (one of the main characters and the top officer in their military) fulfills the A Father to his Men trope tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AFatherToHisMen pretty well.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

“It is in your nature to destroy yourselves.”

Terminator from Terminator 2.

Across all media, including what is still wrongly called “comedy,” the strong attitude that death is good, that there is no God, that “There is no such thing as bad language,” (Louis Black) and that “There’s no one - up there.” George Carlin.

You grow up, get a job cause you need to pay the bills, get high, have sex with whoever and die - to nothing. That is social anarchy, that is nihilism and radical individualism where the individual is god and no one - nobody - can tell him to do anything.

In the past, Science Fiction was about solving problems, exploration, helping people through technology and building a better world. NOT careening through life and accidentally bumping into people and situations that may or may not be good for you. With the driving philosophy going back to the Hippies, “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.”

**Take the original Star Trek. **True friendship, willing to lay down your life for your friends, intelligence, analysis, deduction, wit and the willingness to take on threats with well thought out plans, and a touch of humor. That is the kind of science-fiction I want, or the original, first two Star Wars movies. Even on the design level, before the Enterprise, spaceships were usually tubes with a pointed end and the opposite end had fins and spit fire, with the occasional saucer shape.

So I don’t buy contemporary SF. In the 1980s, my company received Asimov and Analog magazines for free. Most of the writing was mediocre, with only one writer who was quite good. Years later, she received an award or two, but I look at SF paperbacks today and nothing catches my eye or a few have this retro look. Then they started to add sexuality to the stories, so I just stopped reading them.

It’s a shame - a real shame - that instead of stories for all ages, they’re injecting immorality, inappropriate sexuality and “dark” themes into most fictional media today. They can keep it. I don’t want it.

Peace,
Ed

I notice you don’t mention The Next Generation.

 

[edwest2]

I notice you don’t mention The Next Generation.

The Next Generation was sloppily done, and just not as memorable.

Peace,
Ed

 

[andrewstx]

I don’t watch B G, but it is surely true that some radical people regard their wivesand children as property.

My step-father certainly did. He also beat us, but of course his biological son much less. I was beaten not spanked ofte, especially when reprort cards came out. I was very embarresed when I had to change for PE class and you could see me head to toe.

He would always say: “You don’t see me doing that, do you”, he wanted me to be a carbon copy of himself. No way was that going to happen since he was the most bigoted human to walk the earth, had a vulgar name for every color and nation, and religous group on earth. Engish were “limeys” germans “krauts”, and Catholics were “un-Christian heathens”. But he could not endure more than 5 minutes without a ciggarette, so no church for him, to this jerk church was just a place to teach us to take his orders.

His mistreatment made me very depressed, and I ran away when I was 15, he had the police return me and then he kicked me out.

This was in Texas which had no child abuse laws then. He died from lung cancer not too many years later, had he been buried instead of cremated I would have gladly danced on his grave!

 

[Contarini]

I can’t stand Battlestar because (a) they have found an alternative to the word F*** and make it sound normal, (b) alcoholism as, you know, just something people do/have, and (c) for a lack of logic in some cases.

If by “just” you mean that it’s portrayed as not being destructive, you’re completely, demonstrably wrong.

Alcoholism is deeply destructive to the people affected by it in BSG.

I’m surprised that you don’t mention the portrayal of sex. I think that is a much more valid criticism than the ones you mention, since at times it crosses over into the exploitative rather than simply being a portrait of messy human behavior. (The miniseries pilot is worse than the actual show.)

Clearly where we differ most (and we’ve discussed this before) is your aversion to “darkness” in fiction.

Many conservative Christians share this taste, but I find it theologically baffling, especially for those of us in a broadly Augustinian tradition.

Wouldn’t fiction that portrayed “clear-cut” good and evil characters be Manichaeanl?
Wouldn’t fiction that portrayed naturally good characters be Pelagian?

Edwin

 

[edwest2]

If by “just” you mean that it’s portrayed as not being destructive, you’re completely, demonstrably wrong.

Alcoholism is deeply destructive to the people affected by it in BSG.

I’m surprised that you don’t mention the portrayal of sex. I think that is a much more valid criticism than the ones you mention, since at times it crosses over into the exploitative rather than simply being a portrait of messy human behavior. (The miniseries pilot is worse than the actual show.)

Clearly where we differ most (and we’ve discussed this before) is your aversion to “darkness” in fiction.

Many conservative Christians share this taste, but I find it theologically baffling, especially for those of us in a broadly Augustinian tradition.

Wouldn’t fiction that portrayed “clear-cut” good and evil characters be Manichaeanl?
Wouldn’t fiction that portrayed naturally good characters be Pelagian?

Edwin

Well, what is darkness in fiction? It certainly isn’t life affirming or good for the mind or soul. None of the names you’ve mentioned mean anything to me in this context.

I watched SF dissolve into the same muck and mire that other media did. That’s why I don’t care to read any contemporary SF.

I believe in strictly good and strictly bad characters, though not 100% perfect characters. They can make mistakes but their mistakes will usually be small.

Take the SF series the X-Files. The last season was so, so bad. In a review of the box office for the top 50 films when the last X-Files movie came out, it ranked 49th, right above Space Monkeys.

And Falling Skies. What a joke. It lacks logic, coherence and innovation. I suspect the series will end in the same muddled way as the X-Files or Lost. There are two or three movies right now that have halted production because the writers just don’t know what they’re doing.

Otherwise, for those who know what they’re doing, the political agendas are very obvious.

Peace,
Ed