Sci-fi novel "Hyperion" by Dan Simmons

[Bobby_Jim]

So I just finished reading this book. Very dark and disturbing yet has a cliffhanger ending that forced me to buy the sequel to find out what happens.

Anyway, it was interesting. A lot of modern sci-fi takes kind of a dismissive or sneering tone toward religion. This guy does not come across as a believer, but at least shows some respect for the depth of thought and complexity inherent in Judaism and Catholicism.

I don’t want to say too much, but the book is arranged in the style of “The Canterbury Tales”, and one of the tales is told by a priest, and is quite harrowing and awful in the end, but I think says something about true religion vs twisted caricatures of religion that one sometimes encounters. In another of the tales he offers a take on the story of Abraham and Isaac and the sacrifice. I think in the end he still misses the point, but at least tries to dive a little bit below the surface and tries to get past the modern kneejerk reaction that God must be really awful to ask Abraham to sacrifice his son.

I’m curious if anyone else has read this, or anything else by this author - it’s definitely not what I would call uplifting or edifying, really quite grim and yet I was surprised to find myself drawn in. Although please no spoilers, I haven’t started reading “The Fall of Hyperion” yet.

 

[Gliggle]

Hi,

I read those years ago, very enjoyable! The following books in the series are worth reading. Yeah I felt the same at the time, it’s nice not to have the religion completely picked on for once…

I recommend Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide for some more brilliant sci-fi that isn’t completely dismissive of Catholicism. (sequels to “Ender’s Game”)

I love sci-fi! =) Have you watched the recent series of Battle Star Galactica? That is a really entertaining sci-fi that doesn’t leave God out of it like so much other science fiction does. It really surprised me when I watched it.

edit: Oh yeah I read another one by Dan Simmons called “A Song for Kali” which has really strong hindu themes. The author obviously takes an interest in the power of religion. Anyway, I am not sure I recommend that book to you, it was really very good in a way, but it was in the horror genre rather than sci-fi. It also had a lot of references to Keats, the author is clearly a fan =)

 

[Bobby_Jim]

I read those years ago, very enjoyable! The following books in the series are worth reading. Yeah I felt the same at the time, it’s nice not to have the religion completely picked on for once…

I recommend Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide for some more brilliant sci-fi that isn’t completely dismissive of Catholicism. (sequels to “Ender’s Game”)

I love sci-fi! =) Have you watched the recent series of Battle Star Galactica? That is a really entertaining sci-fi that doesn’t leave God out of it like so much other science fiction does. It really surprised me when I watched it.

edit: Oh yeah I read another one by Dan Simmons called “A Song for Kali” which has really strong hindu themes. The author obviously takes an interest in the power of religion. Anyway, I am not sure I recommend that book to you, it was really very good in a way, but it was in the horror genre rather than sci-fi. It also had a lot of references to Keats, the author is clearly a fan =)

Thanks for the recommendations - I read those Ender books years ago, and had forgotten about the Catholic aspects those. It’s interesting because Card is a Mormon, but I haven’t seen him describe the Mormon church in space. I do recall another of his series, I forget what it’s called, with the family in exile in the desert split into warring factions, which I’ve heard has some parallels to the Mormon scriptures but I’m not that familiar with those…

But as I think about it, between Hyperion, and the Ender series, and also “The Mote in God’s Eye” by Larry Niven & David Pournelle (which I think is set in Pournelle’s future “universe”), we have three examples where the Catholic church spreads with humanity to other words. At least two of those also have Muslims spreading with humanity. So maybe there’s a sense that these are still vital religions, or perhaps a deep-rooted sense of the missionary Church, or something. But I don’t recall, for example, specific examples of Lutherans or Methodists in space.

I have not seen the recent Battlestar Galactica - just haven’t had time to get sucked into another series! But I have heard it’s excellent, and I’ve vaguely heard that its producers have some sort of religious leanings (but I forget what, maybe Mormon again?)

 

[Gliggle]

Oooh I haven’t read “The Mote in God’s Eye” will check it out if I ever have time. hehe too bad about the time issue =(

Yes, the producer/creator of Battle Star Galactica is Mormon too! Hope you get a chance to watch it some time.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

Oooh I haven’t read “The Mote in God’s Eye” will check it out if I ever have time. hehe too bad about the time issue =(

Yes, the producer/creator of Battle Star Galactica is Mormon too! Hope you get a chance to watch it some time.

“Mote in God’s Eye” in my opinion is bloated and dull, and also a bit dated. There are some parts of it that are really imaginitive and thoughtful, but overall it was a slog to get through. It’s considered a classic though, so a lot of people must’ve liked it.

The edition I read comes with a testimony from Robert Heinlein “Quite possibly the best science fiction novel I have ever read!!!” which I have to say is a stretch. But maybe if one like Heinlein (which I don’t…) one also likes “Mote”.

 

[Dandelion_Wine]

I read Hyperion MANY moons ago. I didn’t recall much of it but remembered there was something disturbing about it. I went to wiki and remember more of it. I don’t specifically remember reading the Fall of Hyperion, but I must have.

I’m a huge fan of Card as well (Ender’s Game and Speaker for the Dead especially) and also of Larry Niven (I really enjoyed Ringworld).

The Mote in God’s Eye is my favorite of all time. I think what I really enjoy about it was it was different that ‘first contact’ stories I’ve read or watched. I thought of Star Trek and how they’re always coming upon different species and how they can always magically (through their comms and computer) communicate and also how most species are symmetrical like us and other animals - and neither is that the case here.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

I’m a huge fan of Card as well (Ender’s Game and Speaker for the Dead especially) and also of Larry Niven (I really enjoyed Ringworld).

The Mote in God’s Eye is my favorite of all time. I think what I really enjoy about it was it was different that ‘first contact’ stories I’ve read or watched. I thought of Star Trek and how they’re always coming upon different species and how they can always magically (through their comms and computer) communicate and also how most species are symmetrical like us and other animals - and neither is that the case here.

See, “Mote” definitely has its fans. I will grant that on the “first contact” side it really does defy the conventions, and the aliens are among the most alien I’ve read in sci-fi. From what I’ve read, the more interesting parts of this book can be attributed to Niven, and the boring “British Empire in Space” and military aspects can be attributed to Pournelle.

I read Ringworld maybe 20 years ago - I remember feeling obligated to read it as part of the sci-fi canon, like a rite of passage for being a nerd. I remember I made it through it pretty quickly, so I must have found it at least passable, but I barely remember a thing about it today.

 

[Baelor]

I have read the entire Hyperion Cantos; they inject a thoughtfulness and literary aspect into science-fiction that is not often seen. The books are memorable and deserve the awards and accolades they have received. Very good, but not hard sci-fi by any means. Simmons studied English, which explains a lot.

I think in the end he still misses the point, but at least tries to dive a little bit below the surface and tries to get past the modern kneejerk reaction that God must be really awful to ask Abraham to sacrifice his son.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Sol Weintraub misses the point.

I’m curious if anyone else has read this, or anything else by this author - it’s definitely not what I would call uplifting or edifying, really quite grim and yet I was surprised to find myself drawn in. Although please no spoilers, I haven’t started reading “The Fall of Hyperion” yet.

I find it extremely edifying because it is stimulating. I think that the equivocation of “edifying” with “simplistic and overt promotion of Catholic ideals” is destructive and limiting.

The Fall of Hyperion works as a sequel to Hyperion; Endymion and Rise of Endymion are related but a separate story. It is impossible to explain without spoilers, but the latter two books involve a less moral institutional Catholic Church and the suggestion that institutional Catholicism loses an element of authentic Christian teaching (i.e. “back to basics,” simple focus on the needy, etc.).

 

[Bobby_Jim]

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Sol Weintraub misses the point.

Indeed… one can’t assume that the author is merely projecting his own beliefs on his characters. Either way it reflects a deeper thought on the authors’ part about the Genesis story than many people are willing to enter into!

I find it extremely edifying because it is stimulating. I think that the equivocation of “edifying” with “simplistic and overt promotion of Catholic ideals” is destructive and limiting.

Yes, I agree that “edifying” is not equal to “rehash of the Catechism”. Around these forums sometimes one has to throw in qualifiers like that to not get jumped on.

But “edifying” is not simply equal to “stimulating” or “deep thought-provoking” either. Personally I can read something and consider it in light of my faith, so for me maybe Nietzsche would edifying, whereas for a high school wannabe-intellectual it could be the opposite. There are also people who find “Star Wars” edifying because it broadly features themes of good is better than evil, and hope for redemption, and promoting values like courage and loyalty and so forth, and then there are people who find it not edifying for “promoting gnosticism” or some such. Maybe “edifying” is just too subjective of a term…

The Fall of Hyperion works as a sequel to Hyperion; Endymion and Rise of Endymion are related but a separate story. It is impossible to explain without spoilers, but the latter two books involve a less moral institutional Catholic Church and the suggestion that institutional Catholicism loses an element of authentic Christian teaching (i.e. “back to basics,” simple focus on the needy, etc.).

could be interesting… but sounds like something where I could put down the series after “Fall” and come back to it after a while? I get really annoyed looking through Sci-Fi titles. Everything now is part of a trilogy, or a quintology, or an N-ology. Doesn’t anyone write standalone books anymore? The answer is no, there’s more money in series because some fraction of your customers will keep coming back. Kind of like drug companies, they don’t want to make drugs like antibiotics that you take for a week or two, they want to make things you’ll be on the rest of your life.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

More on this “edifying” thing… I guess maybe originally I was using it more in the sense of “fills one with hope” moreso than “reinforces the faith”. In my previous post I was buying in to the latter rather than the former sense.

I would stand by the notion that “Hyperion” does not fill one with hope. Not everyone is looking to read something that is going to leave them depressed. I once read this book called “Space Prison” (aka “The Survivors”) by Tom Godwin. It overall has a good (if somewhat martial) message, but but dang if it doesn’t leave you feeling down in the dumps, miserable, hopeless, and depressed about the cruel unfeeling universe that doesn’t even leave room for a little child and his teddy bear. Until you get about 80% of the way through it, then it picks up I guess.

 

[Baelor]

could be interesting… but sounds like something where I could put down the series after “Fall” and come back to it after a while?

Yes. But there is a lot of information, many characters, and a complicated (and loosely-resolved) plot, so reading them soon after each other may alleviated any confusion that could arise.

I get really annoyed looking through Sci-Fi titles. Everything now is part of a trilogy, or a quintology, or an N-ology. Doesn’t anyone write standalone books anymore? The answer is no, there’s more money in series because some fraction of your customers will keep coming back.

While perhaps your cynicism is justified, I would like to suggest that science-fiction and fantasy are naturally genres suited to longer works because they must also construct a world. Fitzgerald did not need to describe in detail every aspect of America at the time of the events of Gatsby. We know them. When an author is constructing a world, this is absent.

There are some excellent standalone books – Asimov (in particular End of Eternity, The Gods Themselves), LeGuin (Left Hand of Darkness, The Dispossessed), etc.

 

[Baelor]

I would stand by the notion that “Hyperion” does not fill one with hope. Not everyone is looking to read something that is going to leave them depressed.

Sure, but that is a criterion that does not apply to everyone. Certainly you should not read something that is not pleasurable to you.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

There are some excellent standalone books – Asimov (in particular End of Eternity, The Gods Themselves), LeGuin (Left Hand of Darkness, The Dispossessed), etc.

These are all probably written 1970s or earlier, right? I occasionally scan Amazon for current offerings, and I stand by that everything written today is “book 5 of such-n-such” or “part of the blahblahblah Chronicles” or whatever. I’m not totally against series, but it just takes more of a committment of time. If something is going to be series, I tend to prefer things that are more episodic, like the Sherlock Holmes stories or James Bond novels where there is some continuity and recurring characters, but they also work standaolone and it doesn’t matter as much what order you read them in.

End of Eternity - not sure if I read that one or not. I read most of the classic Asimov series (Robots, Foundation) a while ago, found the early ones really good and then when he picked up Foundation again many years later I found they weren’t nearly as good as the first three.

I’ll have to check out The Dispossessed. I enjoyed the Left Hand of Darkness - I had bought that on my way to the airport one time for some light reading on the plane. Got maybe halfway through on the flight, then got home and had to go straight back to reading to finish it out.

 

[Baelor]

These are all probably written 1970s or earlier, right? I occasionally scan Amazon for current offerings, and I stand by that everything written today is “book 5 of such-n-such” or “part of the blahblahblah Chronicles” or whatever. I’m not totally against series, but it just takes more of a committment of time. If something is going to be series, I tend to prefer things that are more episodic, like the Sherlock Holmes stories or James Bond novels where there is some continuity and recurring characters, but they also work standaolone and it doesn’t matter as much what order you read them in.

I understand – although I do not share – your preferences. Consider reading through the shortlists of the Hugo, Nebula, and Locus awards. I am sure you will find many works that are standalone. Short stories also tend to me; there are excellent SF anthologies.

I’ll have to check out The Dispossessed. I enjoyed the Left Hand of Darkness - I had bought that on my way to the airport one time for some light reading on the plane. Got maybe halfway through on the flight, then got home and had to go straight back to reading to finish it out.

LHoD is excellent (through I would not classify it as light reading).

 

[Bobby_Jim]

LHoD is excellent (through I would not classify it as light reading).

yeah, I was surprised too at the non-lightness of it. I think when I picked it up I had mixed up in my mind Ursula LeGuin and Madeleine L’engle who I remember as more of an author of young adult fiction.

I’ve been working my way through this list of 100 sci-fi and fantasy books recommended by NPR listerners.

npr.org/2011/08/11/139085843/your-picks-top-100-science-fiction-fantasy-books

A lot of these I’ve read already. However I am much less interested in this high fantasy type of stuff (excepting Lord of the Rings) which makes up a fair number of entires. Also I am hoping for certain titles to show up for Kindle, like “A Canticle for Lebowitz”. It was actually from this list that I decided to pick up “Hyperion” (and hence this thread!)