Science and faith as complementary

[MWin]

Firstly, it is a question of average IQ, which is 25-30 points higher in Europe. It takes a certain level of IQ to be inward-looking, that is, to realize that much of what you experience derives from your own soul as a projection. Apart from this, there are other congenital factors.

Concerning our medieval heritage, apart from the extrinsic cultural heritage. The latest findings in epigenetics show that acquired traits are sporadically passed on to subsequent generations–at a surprisingly high degree and at a high pace, to boot. It undergirds the notion that our medieval history has forged our modern Western mentality. According to recent findings, human evolution has been moving at breakneck speed in the past several thousand years.
reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSN1043228620071210?sp=true
sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090126203207.htm
discovermagazine.com/2006/nov/cover#.Ucslejs3B8E

Mats Winther

 

[wmw]

Firstly, it is a question of average IQ, which is 25-30 points higher in Europe. It takes a certain level of IQ to be inward-looking, that is, to realize that much of what you experience derives from your own soul as a projection. Apart from this, there are other congenital factors.

Concerning our medieval heritage, apart from the extrinsic cultural heritage. The latest findings in epigenetics show that acquired traits are sporadically passed on to subsequent generations–at a surprisingly high degree and at a high pace, to boot. It undergirds the notion that our medieval history has forged our modern Western mentality. According to recent findings, human evolution has been moving at breakneck speed in the past several thousand years.
reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSN1043228620071210?sp=true
sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090126203207.htm
discovermagazine.com/2006/nov/cover#.Ucslejs3B8E

Mats Winther

First, comparing first world IQ’s with third world IQ’s is largely about the available education and attendance practices. More about culture than genetics.

Epigenetics is mostly about environmental effects on gene expression particularly on the diet of pregnant mothers. So to now say that the mental concentrations of a continent of people have lifted the IQ’s of the genetic inheritance of their ancestors is one of the more extreme stretches I’ve heard among many claims of this quite new addition to genetics. Most of the hype is at least about taking supplements to enable “good” genes or disable “bad” ones (mostly aimed at trying to live longer).

In general most of the increase in mutations have been in developing more disease conditions that modern medicine and lifestyles in the first world can make survivable.

I don’t buy there is evidence of genetically smarter Europeans and if there is a smarter set of genes among Europeans it seems very likely it got there by either luck of mutation or the luck of the available foods of the area, not mental or religious practices.

 

[Abu]

In Science and Creation Father Stanley Jaki lists seven great cultures in which science suffered a “stillbirth” – Arabic, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, and Maya – they did not have the Catholic conception of the divine. Fr Jaki emphasises that “nature had to be de-animized” for science to be born. (Creation and Scientific Creativity, Paul Haffner, Christendom Press, 1991, p 41). “During the twelfth century in Latin Europe those aspects of Judeo-Christian thought which emphasized the idea of creation out of nothing and the distance between God and the world, in certain contexts and with certain men, had the effect of eliminating all semi-divine entities from the realm of nature.” (How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Dr Thomas E Woods, Regnery, 2005, p 93).

The twin pillars of Faith and Reason (Fides et Ratio, Bl John Paul II) will always result in the best science – directed to the discovery of God’s laws and based on His natural moral law as to ends and means – with which Christ’s Church alone is fully equipped by Him to guide.

 

[wmw]

I have a number of Father Stanley Jaki Books. He has some great things to say many of his books seem rather rambling because they seem to be more a collection of his notes and speeches. Still, and excellent source!

On an earlier post someone was into dual-isms I think a return to a classical organization of knowledge, here I’ve found a diagram on the internet:
tamayaosbc.wordpress.com/2010/04/15/moral-philosophy-lecture-1/
From this diagram you see that all human knowledge was divided by how the fields of study were conducted either by deductive reasoning for the Humanities and inductive reasoning for the Empirical Sciences.

In the deductive reasoning model the idea is to take the general laws as accepted and deduce the implications for specific individual applications.

In the inductive model small experiments hold up or bring down the more general laws and theories. Modern man thinks there have been many very general concepts of Science had to be totally refashioned to fit new information of experiments. This has given them a distrust that the general laws in use in the Humanities are valid. We have been so conditioned to change and rebuilding new models of reality that we distrust anything older than Quantum Mechanics.

I don’t have a grand solution to changing this view, but I don’t think reorganizing the diagram into dualistic patterns are going to break this mind set.

 

[MWin]

First, comparing first world IQ’s with third world IQ’s is largely about the available education and attendance practices. More about culture than genetics.

Epigenetics is mostly about environmental effects on gene expression particularly on the diet of pregnant mothers. So to now say that the mental concentrations of a continent of people have lifted the IQ’s of the genetic inheritance of their ancestors is one of the more extreme stretches I’ve heard among many claims of this quite new addition to genetics. Most of the hype is at least about taking supplements to enable “good” genes or disable “bad” ones (mostly aimed at trying to live longer).

In general most of the increase in mutations have been in developing more disease conditions that modern medicine and lifestyles in the first world can make survivable.

I don’t buy there is evidence of genetically smarter Europeans and if there is a smarter set of genes among Europeans it seems very likely it got there by either luck of mutation or the luck of the available foods of the area, not mental or religious practices.

No, you cannot compensate for a discrepancy of 25-30 IQ points with more education and food. American Blacks have a 20% white genetic admixture, on average, and plenty of education and food. Nevertheless, their average IQ remains at approximately 85, 10 points higher than sub-Saharan Blacks, but much lower than the white average. Please don’t imagine that you are being empathic and tolerant by refusing to give attention to the racial problem. A third of the Blacks in the U.S. are subject to measures of the legal authorities. It has a huge impact on black families, etc. One shouldn’t think of oneself as “good” if one keeps sweeping the problems under the carpet.

M. Winther

 

[Abu]

Alfred North Whitehead, F.R.S., knew that Catholic theology was essential for the rise of science in the West, while stifled elsewhere. He explained: “The greatest contribution of medievalism to the scientific movement [was] the inexpugnable belief that …there is a secret, a secret which can be unveiled. How has this conviction been so vividly implanted in the European mind?..It must come from the medieval insistence on the rationality of God, conceived with the personal energy of Jehovah and with the rationality of a Greek philosopher. Every detail was supervised and ordered: the search into nature could only result in the vindication of the faith in rationality.” [E.L. Jones, 1987; in The *Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 15].

Real science and real faith are complementary.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Alfred North Whitehead, F.R.S., knew that Catholic theology was essential for the rise of science in the West, while stifled elsewhere. He explained: “The greatest contribution of medievalism to the scientific movement [was] the inexpugnable belief that …there is a secret, a secret which can be unveiled. How has this conviction been so vividly implanted in the European mind?..It must come from the medieval insistence on the rationality of God, conceived with the personal energy of Jehovah and with the rationality of a Greek philosopher. Every detail was supervised and ordered: the search into nature could only result in the vindication of the faith in rationality.” [E.L. Jones, 1987; in The *Victory of Reason

, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 15].

Real science and real faith are complementary.

They’ve got to be, since they both equal the Truth.

 

[wmw]

Being Truth the Holy Spirit also guides us into new truth. Knowing that discovering the rational handiwork of God is possible is a small, but great truth. The knowledge of this little revelation begs the curiosity of the human soul to better grasp for God the next puzzle to solve. “For God”, in that we are his hands and minds to cooperate and subdue the wild and suffering of our world. For we are the Body of Christ though the working of the Holy Spirit.

The Body of Christ has many vocations in science, medicine, engineering, managing, law, service to others, and all the good works that we are called to build. The building upon these discoveries is a great calling, but should not be elevated above other parts of the Body for the eye should NOT say to the foot you are not important since I am enlightened, but you are dirty and tread upon.

When the non-religious say you must turn from religious prejudges to be objective, it is like telling the Dr. to not care about their patients to better “care” for their patients. We discover to build upon the truth to unravel God’s design if the goal of science were to be to disprove God then we should recuse ourselves, but this is not a Christian calling that the non-religious often falsely attempt to impose on the goal of science.

 

[Khalid]

Firstly, it is a question of average IQ, which is 25-30 points higher in Europe. It takes a certain level of IQ to be inward-looking, that is, to realize that much of what you experience derives from your own soul as a projection. Apart from this, there are other congenital factors.

Concerning our medieval heritage, apart from the extrinsic cultural heritage. The latest findings in epigenetics show that acquired traits are sporadically passed on to subsequent generations–at a surprisingly high degree and at a high pace, to boot. It undergirds the notion that our medieval history has forged our modern Western mentality. According to recent findings, human evolution has been moving at breakneck speed in the past several thousand years.
reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSN1043228620071210?sp=true
sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090126203207.htm
discovermagazine.com/2006/nov/cover#.Ucslejs3B8E

Mats Winther

That’s because the evolution (here defined broadly as “change over time”) has only been going on for several thousands of years. Before that, there was no time for evolution to take place along.

 

[Khalid]

In Science and Creation Father Stanley Jaki lists seven great cultures in which science suffered a “stillbirth” – Arabic, Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, and Maya – they did not have the Catholic conception of the divine. Fr Jaki emphasises that “nature had to be de-animized” for science to be born. (Creation and Scientific Creativity, Paul Haffner, Christendom Press, 1991, p 41). “During the twelfth century in Latin Europe those aspects of Judeo-Christian thought which emphasized the idea of creation out of nothing and the distance between God and the world, in certain contexts and with certain men, had the effect of eliminating all semi-divine entities from the realm of nature.” (How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Dr Thomas E Woods, Regnery, 2005, p 93).

The twin pillars of Faith and Reason (Fides et Ratio, Bl John Paul II) will always result in the best science – directed to the discovery of God’s laws and based on His natural moral law as to ends and means – with which Christ’s Church alone is fully equipped by Him to guide.

Jaki’s ideas either directly influenced or were directly influenced by Toynbee, who developed the idea of “aborted civilizations” (although along different, less-technological grounds) in A Study of History.

 

[grannymh]

They’ve got to be, since they both equal the Truth.

Unfortunately, that media sound bite (urban myth) ignores the conditions for scientific “truth” and Catholic “truth”.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I found this in a Saints book about Albert the Great (1200-1280):

"Compatible Faith and Science

As more and more about the world was understood through the use of reasoning, so less seemed to be explained by the providence of faith. Debate raged about whether the knowledge of Creation, as supposedly revealed by God, was compromised by that acquired through man’s own intelligence. For Albert, there was no contradiction between the two routes to knowledge. There was no “double truth” as some asserted: One for faith and another for reason. All that is really true, he said, was joined in harmony, though some mysteries can be grasped only by faith alone."

From A Treasury of Saints by Malcolm Day.

 

[grannymh]

I found this in a Saints book about Albert the Great (1200-1280):

"Compatible Faith and Science

As more and more about the world was understood through the use of reasoning, so less seemed to be explained by the providence of faith. Debate raged about whether the knowledge of Creation, as supposedly revealed by God, was compromised by that acquired through man’s own intelligence. For Albert, there was no contradiction between the two routes to knowledge. There was no “double truth” as some asserted: One for faith and another for reason. All that is really true, he said, was joined in harmony, though some mysteries can be grasped only by faith alone."

From A Treasury of Saints by Malcolm Day.

Thank you for entering into discussion with me.

Re: “For Albert, there was no contradiction between the two routes to knowledge.
There was no “double truth” as some asserted: One for faith and another for reason. All that is really true, he said, was joined in harmony, though some mysteries can be grasped only by faith alone.”

What is necessary in this century is to describe the actual two routes that Albert the Great was referring to.

In the middle of an old This Rock article, there is a reference to St. Thomas Aquinas’ description of [possibly Albert the Great’s] two routes. I am traveling so I cannot fetch the link until later.

Regardless, if we can use a bit of common sense, the necessary conditions for scientific research and Catholic doctrines to be in harmony will be obvious. We need to know the conditions or the circumstances that are necessary for science to be really true and for Catholic doctrines to be really true.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Thank you for entering into discussion with me.

Re: “For Albert, there was no contradiction between the two routes to knowledge.
There was no “double truth” as some asserted: One for faith and another for reason. All that is really true, he said, was joined in harmony, though some mysteries can be grasped only by faith alone.”

What is necessary in this century is to describe the actual two routes that Albert the Great was referring to.

In the middle of an old This Rock article, there is a reference to St. Thomas Aquinas’ description of [possibly Albert the Great’s] two routes. I am traveling so I cannot fetch the link until later.

Regardless, if we can use a bit of common sense, the necessary conditions for scientific research and Catholic doctrines to be in harmony will be obvious. We need to know the conditions or the circumstances that are necessary for science to be really true and for Catholic doctrines to be really true.

What I found edifying was him saying that some mysteries can be grasped ONLY by faith.

Yes, science can explain a lot about how things work, but it definitely cannot explain many other things, and it is doubtful that it ever will - things such as love, madness and cancer to name a few.

And YES there is also some really BAD “science” out there, which is meant to confuse and distort the truth.

 

[Gricken]

As a catholic I see no problems with science. And tend to get very flabbergasted when people think they science and faith can’t compliment each other

 

[grannymh]

What I found edifying was him saying that some mysteries can be grasped ONLY by faith.

That edifying sentence is what many, not all, Catholics have abandoned because the heresy of Modernism is alive and well within the Catholic Church. Sometime Google Franciscan scholar, Fr. Michael Guinan, OFM. As for “science and faith” discussions, check out the BioLogos Foundation which ignores Catholic doctrines on human origin and subsequently Romans 5: 12-21. There are times when we need to question the umbrella term “faith”.

Yes, science can explain a lot about how things work, but it definitely cannot explain many other things, and it is doubtful that it ever will - things such as love, madness and cancer to name a few.

Science cannot explain the total, fully-complete human nature and it is at that point that science and Catholic faith collide in a non-complementary battle.

And YES there is also some really BAD “science” out there, which is meant to confuse and distort the truth.

For the record.
I deeply respect the dedicated women and men who are sincerely working in the many disciplines of natural science. Natural science is a gift from God which benefits society.

What Catholics need to learn is that science research uses the Inductive Method which considers Nature as the authority. That is proper. Where science research and Catholic doctrines fight for dominance is where particular, individual research purports going thousands of years backwards in order to find evidence for the offered hypothesis.

In these cases, it is not so much a question of really bad science, it is the question – Does the evidence (including assumptions and methods) support the interpretation that leads to an universal conclusion? Going back to the dawn of human history, one cannot prove all negatives with objective certainty. In turn, it is those persons who interpret science so as to “scientifically” update basic Catholics doctrines (heresy of Modernism) who are distorting the truth.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

What Catholics need to learn is that science research uses the Inductive Method which considers Nature as the authority. That is proper. Where science research and Catholic doctrines fight for dominance is where particular, individual research purports going thousands of years backwards in order to find evidence for the offered hypothesis.

In these cases, it is not so much a question of really bad science, it is the question – Does the evidence (including assumptions and methods) support the interpretation that leads to an universal conclusion? In turn, it is those persons who interpret science so as to “scientifically” update basic Catholics doctrines (heresy of Modernism) who are distorting the truth of possibility and probability.

I think you are right about the interpretation, often organizations/political parties use pseudo-scientific data to further their own ends and agenda.

Also pure science has been put to use in diabolical ways by governments and corporations, in the form of bombs, chemical warfare and genetic tinkering for the purpose of power and profits.

But pure science itself is not evil, it is only limited by man’s mental capacities to understand and utilize God’s creation. There are many scientists who believe in God, and worship him.

 

[Khalid]

…For Albert, there was no contradiction between the two routes to knowledge. There was no “double truth” as some asserted: One for faith and another for reason. All that is really true, he said, was joined in harmony, though some mysteries can be grasped only by faith alone.

Mr Winther, this is the exact “theory of double truth” that I was talking about. It’s hard to find information on it; Wikipedia redirects to some Buddhist doctrine.

 

[grannymh]

Thank you for entering into discussion with me.

Re: “For Albert, there was no contradiction between the two routes to knowledge.
There was no “double truth” as some asserted: One for faith and another for reason. All that is really true, he said, was joined in harmony, though some mysteries can be grasped only by faith alone.”

What is necessary in this century is to describe the actual two routes that Albert the Great was referring to.

In the middle of an old This Rock article, there is a reference to St. Thomas Aquinas’ description of [possibly Albert the Great’s] two routes. I am traveling so I cannot fetch the link until later.

Regardless, if we can use a bit of common sense, the necessary conditions for scientific research and Catholic doctrines to be in harmony will be obvious. We need to know the conditions or the circumstances that are necessary for science to be really true and for Catholic doctrines to be really true.

This is the above mentioned link.
catholic.com/magazine/articles/aquinas-vs-intelligent-design

“Into this medieval debate comes Aquinas, who reasoned thus: God is the author of all truth; the aim of scientific research is the truth; therefore, there can be no fundamental incompatibility between the two. Provided we understand Christian doctrine properly and do our science well, we will find the truth.”

Please take note of the word Provided.

“In the Thomistic view, the teachings of the faith are fully compatible with what we learn of nature through scientific research, provided we both understand those divine teachings correctly and we do our scientific research consistently and rigorously.”

Again, there is that word P**rovided **which, in this century, is gleefully omitted by most, not all, people when talking about two “routes” being complementary.

 

[wmw]

Catholicism is compatible with empirical science as it is a methodology to obtain a sub-set of truth and knowledge. Yet, empirical science is rightly guarded against any hypothesis that includes actions of God. He can’t be measured or predicted except in His creation. This necessary exclusion is often exaggerated into statements that say there is no compatibility between science and Catholicism, but this is not true, it does exist though the compatibility is only one sided, true for Catholicism, but false for science.

Catholicism includes the knowledge of the empirical sciences, but the empirical sciences can’t include the knowledge of Catholicism. This is a limitation on the methodology employed in science not a limitation or deficit in Catholicism.

The humanities that all theology includes employ deductive reasoning while empirical methods are inductively reasoned. Deduction means starting from initial, general truths and deducing further truths from them. Empirical/Inductive methods start from instances of small observations including experiments and developing general theories.

To combine the information of all methods is a freedom for everyone to employ and enjoy. Not being strictly empirical in all our thinking is a symptom of a healthy diversity of thought, but we should also know that empirical scientific work will be lacking this diversity due to this restriction in acceptable methodology and unaccepted initial or revealed truths.

Catholics can be scientists by putting their minds to scientific work by using inductive methods. Scientists can be Catholic by accepting the truths of the faith and using reason to deduce that there is a God that can’t be empirically demonstrated nor proved impossible, but can be known and loved and visits us in the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ.