Science and faith didn't start out opposing each other

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I was listening to a special on Good Friday on a Catholic radio station called Relevant Radio. A Priest on there was making many valid points about how much the Catholic Church has actually given us throughout history, but people have taken lies for truth and many people see the Catholic Church as nothing more than a roadblock. This priest was citing many sources, books and authors that have written & recorded much about this. Many people just assume that the Church is opposed to science, but did you know that the Catholic Church actually started the scientific study of things? Science started out with the study of things with faith in mind and now they seem to be opposed in many instances. The Catholic Church doesn’t condemn science, and actually helped start it. I don’t think that many people are aware that the Catholic Church actually gave us the everyday calender that we live by. The original Roman Calender was off by eleven days and the Catholic Church figured this out and fixed it. They say that we can learn much from our past. Any thoughts on this??? I will put a link for that radio station below, if anyone wants to look up that show in their archives.

www.relevantradio.com
 
I probably wouldn’t say that “Science and faith didn’t start out opposing each other” becaus it implies that they do oppose each other now when, in fact, they do not.
 
I probably wouldn’t say that “Science and faith didn’t start out opposing each other” becaus it implies that they do oppose each other now when, in fact, they do not.
I understand what your’e saying, but I also don’t think that many people feel that way. It seems that many (not all) people have mistaken Science and the natural study of things for a tool to abolish the meaning of & the existence of God and the Church. It was the Church Herself that advocated the study of natural things, but also warned that all natural things should be studied with the Supernatural in mind. It seems that in may cases, that this line has been crossed, blurred and altogether erased in many ways, especially by many in the scientific community.
 
What precisely is the thesis of your post? Are you attempting to provide a history of the development of Western epistemology, the crowning jewel of the European Enlightenment, whose legacy has brought the world numerous technology advances, a detailed understanding of various natural phenomena, and a fairly consistent view of natural history (biological and cosmological)? Based on my own analysis of the history, which admittedly is incomplete, the Catholic Church probably did lay the foundation for science, but did not significantly contribute during the secular European Enlightenment.
 
I probably wouldn’t say that “Science and faith didn’t start out opposing each other” becaus it implies that they do oppose each other now when, in fact, they do not.
Hi Joe,

That statement is not accurate. On this board, there are frequent posts about human origins. There is a great effort being made to get people to accept the biology textbook version, even to the point of quoting Popes and saints. I would think that if a real discussion occurred, some would agree and some would disagree, and that would be the end. But it doesn’t stop – and is not likely to stop. The same is happening in the outside world.

God bless,
Ed
 
What precisely is the thesis of your post? Are you attempting to provide a history of the development of Western epistemology, the crowning jewel of the European Enlightenment, whose legacy has brought the world numerous technology advances, a detailed understanding of various natural phenomena, and a fairly consistent view of natural history (biological and cosmological)? Based on my own analysis of the history, which admittedly is incomplete, the Catholic Church probably did lay the foundation for science, but did not significantly contribute during the secular European Enlightenment.
Oh brother. The crowning jewel of the mind of man? I study the history of technology and there are many contributions by thoroughly Christian people, not just secularists.

amazon.com/dp/0895260387

I suggest you look up who founded the great colleges and universities around the world.

God bless,
Ed
 
Hi Joe,

That statement is not accurate. On this board, there are frequent posts about human origins. There is a great effort being made to get people to accept the biology textbook version, even to the point of quoting Popes and saints. I would think that if a real discussion occurred, some would agree and some would disagree, and that would be the end. But it doesn’t stop – and is not likely to stop. The same is happening in the outside world.

God bless,
Ed
Fair enough. I guess it depends on what you mean by “science.” My point was to avoid giving the impression that science and faith are inherently and completely opposed to one another. But, of course, there are individual scientists (or even certain methods of conducting science) that are at odds with the faith.
 
Fair enough. I guess it depends on what you mean by “science.” My point was to avoid giving the impression that science and faith are inherently and completely opposed to one another. But, of course, there are individual scientists (or even certain methods of conducting science) that are at odds with the faith.
I’m a big fan of science, Joe. I pick up books and magazines about it. It’s just that I catch flak, along with others, if I question certain orthodox ideas.

God bless,
Ed
 
Hi Joe,

That statement is not accurate. On this board, there are frequent posts about human origins. There is a great effort being made to get people to accept the biology textbook version, even to the point of quoting Popes and saints. I would think that if a real discussion occurred, some would agree and some would disagree, and that would be the end. But it doesn’t stop – and is not likely to stop. The same is happening in the outside world.

God bless,
Ed
Amen and well said. I recently posted a video from youtube on my Facebook page about the Shroud Of Turin and a (former) Facebook friend of mine chimed in with comments about Christianity opposing science, and stated that “now all of the sudden, the Catholic Church is looking to science for help.” P.S. He is now a former Facebook friend not just because of this comment. He also posted a video from youtube comparing Jesus to Hitler, and Christianity to Nazism. I sent him a private email stating that I will not be friends with people that openly mock God. I think something can be said to the fact that the line has also been severely blurred by many when it comes to Christianity & Nazi’s. I saw this comparison and then Iv’e heard people call our current Pope “Hitlers Pope”, etc. I find it very ironic that the truth has been so totally turned upside down, and that former popes & priests were actually hiding many Jews from the Nazi’s. I don’t think that many people also realize that Hitler bombed, burned & destroyed many Catholic churches, and also tortured and killed many priests.
 
Amen and well said. I recently posted a video from youtube on my Facebook page about the Shroud Of Turin and a (former) Facebook friend of mine chimed in with comments about Christianity opposing science, and stated that “now all of the sudden, the Catholic Church is looking to science for help.” P.S. He is now a former Facebook friend not just because of this comment. He also posted a video from youtube comparing Jesus to Hitler, and Christianity to Nazism. I sent him a private email stating that I will not be friends with people that openly mock God. I think something can be said to the fact that the line has also been severely blurred by many when it comes to Christianity & Nazi’s. I saw this comparison and then Iv’e heard people call our current Pope “Hitlers Pope”, etc. I find it very ironic that the truth has been so totally turned upside down, and that former popes & priests were actually hiding many Jews from the Nazi’s. I don’t think that many people also realize that Hitler bombed, burned & destroyed many Catholic churches, and also tortured and killed many priests.
Here is a good example of what I’m talking about. Viewed through the secular lens, the Church is a billion person political power bloc and it needs to be discredited by them. It needs to be painted as a sort of enemy. Secular thought must be above religious thought in all areas of life, or, failing that, the Church and its followers must never question or oppose secular science.

God bless,
Ed
 
Here is a good example of what I’m talking about. Viewed through the secular lens, the Church is a billion person political power bloc and it needs to be discredited by them. It needs to be painted as a sort of enemy. Secular thought must be above religious thought in all areas of life, or, failing that, the Church and its followers must never question or oppose secular science.

God bless,
Ed
well said again.
 
I was listening to a special on Good Friday on a Catholic radio station called Relevant Radio. A Priest on there was making many valid points about how much the Catholic Church has actually given us throughout history, but people have taken lies for truth and many people see the Catholic Church as nothing more than a roadblock. This priest was citing many sources, books and authors that have written & recorded much about this. Many people just assume that the Church is opposed to science, but did you know that the Catholic Church actually started the scientific study of things? Science started out with the study of things with faith in mind and now they seem to be opposed in many instances. The Catholic Church doesn’t condemn science, and actually helped start it. I don’t think that many people are aware that the Catholic Church actually gave us the everyday calender that we live by. The original Roman Calender was off by eleven days and the Catholic Church figured this out and fixed it. They say that we can learn much from our past. Any thoughts on this??? I will put a link for that radio station below, if anyone wants to look up that show in their archives.

www.relevantradio.com
A lot of the current attitude on this issue is a result of a few historians in the 19th century who promoted the so-called “warfare thesis” or “conflict thesis,” i.e., that science and religion have always been in conflict. The historical research on which the thesis was supposedly based has been widely debunked.

See here for more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfare_thesis

Also, if you can afford it, the Teaching Company offers an excellent set of lectures on science and religion.

.
 
A lot of the current attitude on this issue is a result of a few historians in the 19th century who promoted the so-called “warfare thesis” or “conflict thesis,” i.e., that science and religion have always been in conflict. The historical research on which the thesis was supposedly based has been widely debunked.

See here for more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfare_thesis

Also, if you can afford it, the Teaching Company offers an excellent set of lectures on science and religion.

.
Langdell, That is a very interesting read, thanks for posting the link.
 
I think that its both funny & very ironic that I posted this thread Today, and then while I was looking through the other threads, I saw a story about a scientist who is trying to bring a lawsuit against the Pope and have him serve jail time. Dawkins, a SCIENTIST & AN OUTSPOKEN CRITIC OF RELIGION is attributed to what is being discussed in the article. Case closed??? I think so. By no means am I trying to state that this applies to all scientists, I just found that very ironic and worth sharing on this thread.
 
A lot of the current attitude on this issue is a result of a few historians in the 19th century who promoted the so-called “warfare thesis” or “conflict thesis,” i.e., that science and religion have always been in conflict. The historical research on which the thesis was supposedly based has been widely debunked.

See here for more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfare_thesis

Also, if you can afford it, the Teaching Company offers an excellent set of lectures on science and religion.

.
I do not buy the warfare thesis at all; I merely stated that the Catholic Church has not significantly contributed to modern epistemology (notably empiricism and induction). My use of the italicized “modern” shows that I could accept the thesis that Catholicism contributed to some of the foundations of modern epistemology. The warfare thesis may apply to issues such as creationism or perhaps cosmology, but typically, the non-overlapping magisteria of science and religion are not encroached by either party, enabling them to co-exist.

(Does anyone want me to elaborate on the Catholicism/science link? It would take some time to do.)

If we do accept the negative correlation between general intelligence (as measured by IQ tests) and acceptance of revealed religion, one could hypothesize that more intelligent people are able to adeptly engage in scientific reasoning and analysis. (I do believe the correlation is correct as I will provide an explanation why, but a high IQ simply means one is able to process information efficiently; it does not necessarily mean that one’s judgments would be correct.) Science does not necessarily preclude god, but one can examine and evaluate the world through the lens of the scientific method. As I stated before, science has provided satisfactory, consistent explanations to various (natural) phenomena and events, demonstrating that they can be understood in a materialistic framework. Some might infer, due to the success of the scientific method, that God is an extraneous, unnecessary hypothesis, vulnerable to excision by Occam’s razor for the sake of parsimony. They believe that their observations of the world show no significant deviation from the naturalistic “null hypothesis” which assumes absence of the role of an intervening deity in mundane affairs, since such affairs have naturalistic causation giving no hint of supernatural involvement. Furthermore, they might believe some of God’s purported attributes, such as omnibenevolence and omnipotence, is incompatible with their observations of the world, such as the ubiquitous, immense suffering prevalent in the human condition. The latter refers to the Epicurean paradox, a deductive argument demonstrating the impossibility of a benevolent and omnipotent deity who permits suffering, because it is assumed that suffering cannot co-exist with a benevolent, omnipotent deity, since its benevolence would compel its omnipotence to ameliorate suffering.

I used to believe in the above too.
 
Most people don’t know that Copernicus was a priest. Atheist biologists hate to admit that the founder of the science of genetics, Gregor Mendel, was also a priest. And the father of the Big Bang theory, George LeMaitre, was also a priest. He and Einstein really went at each other for a while, but Einstein finally came around to LeMaitre’s way of thinking.

The Vatican has always supported scientific investigation, even when the conclusions drawn went against the traditional scientific and religious view. The case of Galileo was more atypical than typical of the Vatican’s relations with science.

In the case of evolution, the only row that developed between the Catholic Church and science was the childish conclusion drawn by some biologists (even to this day by people like Richard Dawkins) that somehow evolution makes God unnecessary and atheism respectable.
 
Most people don’t know that Copernicus was a priest. Atheist biologists hate to admit that the founder of the science of genetics, Gregor Mendel, was also a priest. And the father of the Big Bang theory, George LeMaitre, was also a priest. He and Einstein really went at each other for a while, but Einstein finally came around to LeMaitre’s way of thinking.

The Vatican has always supported scientific investigation, even when the conclusions drawn went against the traditional scientific and religious view. The case of Galileo was more atypical than typical of the Vatican’s relations with science.

In the case of evolution, the only row that developed between the Catholic Church and science was the childish conclusion drawn by some biologists (even to this day by people like Richard Dawkins) that somehow evolution makes God unnecessary and atheism respectable.
I never implied that atheism has a monopoly on the creation of scientific knowledge, I just said that Catholicism has not a significant contribution to modern philosophy of science. I was never a loath admit that Mendel was monk (more precisely an Augustinian friar) even when I was an atheist/agnostic. I still believe that atheism is a respectable worldview.
 
I never implied that atheism has a monopoly on the creation of scientific knowledge, I just said that Catholicism has not a significant contribution to modern philosophy of science. I was never a loath admit that Mendel was monk (more precisely an Augustinian friar) even when I was an atheist/agnostic. I still believe that atheism is a respectable worldview.

I wasn’t referring to you, but to some of the atheists I have encountered, who seem to have been poorly educated about how much Catholics have historically contributed to the advance of science. 🙂
 
Julian Huxley, 1959

“In evolutionary thought, there is no need or room for the supernatural, and no longer any place for it. The earth was not created, it evolved… So did all the animals and plants that inhabit it, including our human selves, mind and soul as well as brain and body. Religion, too, originated by evolution… The evolutionary man can no longer take refuge in the arms of a divinized father figure whom he has himself created.”

Will Provine, 1988

“Modern science directly implies that the world is organized according to strictly mechanical principles. There are in nature no principles whatever directed towards goals. There are no gods, and no powers can be rationally ascertained which devise or plan anything.” [Note: Mr. Provine has apparently excluded himself from the ability to devise or plan anything.]

Excerpts from Chance or Purpose by Cardinal Schoenborn.

God bless,
Ed
 
Black Rose

*I still believe that atheism is a respectable worldview. *

Why, if it is false? What other false views do you respect? :rolleyes:
 
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