science and faith

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JohnDamien~"*…to myself it is more apparrent that God exists than that I exist; for my existence is contingent. *" I agree, and one way of stating that in metaphysical terms is “I AM, therefore included in my AMING is the contingent subject/object appearance of the Idea MAN which includes thinking.” Sorry, Descartes, IMHO you had it backwards.

Buffalo, your diagram is brilliant! as far as GOD = to the Ground of Being. You do not lable the largest circle? And it is not clear what that has to do relationally to the other overlapping/not overlapping circles. On first inspection those seem to not go with experience. Can you say more?
 
I have a similar response to antrji, as I have sometimes seen a similar diagram as an illustration of the contingency of existence in philosophy, except it was labeled differently and the circles inside the big one were different. It looks promising, but I’d like to see it developed more clearly as well. It also brings to mind Korzybski’s “structural differential,” if anyone else has seen that.
 
JohnDamien~"*…to myself it is more apparrent that God exists than that I exist; for my existence is contingent. *" I agree, and one way of stating that in metaphysical terms is “I AM, therefore included in my AMING is the contingent subject/object appearance of the Idea MAN which includes thinking.” Sorry, Descartes, IMHO you had it backwards.

Buffalo, your diagram is brilliant! as far as GOD = to the Ground of Being. You do not lable the largest circle? And it is not clear what that has to do relationally to the other overlapping/not overlapping circles. On first inspection those seem to not go with experience. Can you say more?
What I am trying to convey is God will always be outside the largest circle no matter how many there are.
 
I have a similar response to antrji, as I have sometimes seen a similar diagram as an illustration of the contingency of existence in philosophy, except it was labeled differently and the circles inside the big one were different. It looks promising, but I’d like to see it developed more clearly as well. It also brings to mind Korzybski’s “structural differential,” if anyone else has seen that.
Help me develop it.
 
I got that part, Buffalo, and heartily agree. I’m assuming that the big circle is creation, contingent on God. I don’t get why or how you see the other circles overlapping or not, or tangent.
 
I got that part, Buffalo, and heartily agree. I’m assuming that the big circle is creation, contingent on God. I don’t get why or how you see the other circles overlapping or not, or tangent.
Hmmmm.:hmmm:

I was not sure they should touch. Is it for certain they should? What else could there be in that space?
 
Well, your big circle is on what can be understood as an infinite plane or space. It contains four other smaller circles, meaning I would guess that they are ways of thinking/perceiving/understanding. Usually this kind of thing is called a Venn diagram, something which if you aren’t familiar with would be useful to look up.

Generally in the language of those widely used diagrams the intersections of the circles mean shared attributes. So, you need to decide how you wish to illustrate the relationship of reason, say to science and faith. Both of those use reason in different ways, but don’t necessarily overlap with each other, so it would be good to show that. Revelation is part of faith or visa versa, and may be a bit studied by some branch of science, maybe psychology or something, but but not math, and maybe as and aside in astronomy. So that kind of thing could be accounted for as well by the degree of overlap. And on it goes.

But if you get those straight for yourself, it will show in the picture. IDvolution, I’m guessing is your word for Intelligent Design. You have to be aware that wherever you put that, there will be controversy. But in any case, such a diagram as you constructed is an aid in visualizing and comprehending relationships. I hope that helps.
 
Well, your big circle is on what can be understood as an infinite plane or space. It contains four other smaller circles, meaning I would guess that they are ways of thinking/perceiving/understanding. Usually this kind of thing is called a Venn diagram, something which if you aren’t familiar with would be useful to look up.

Generally in the language of those widely used diagrams the intersections of the circles mean shared attributes. So, you need to decide how you wish to illustrate the relationship of reason, say to science and faith. Both of those use reason in different ways, but don’t necessarily overlap with each other, so it would be good to show that. Revelation is part of faith or visa versa, and may be a bit studied by some branch of science, maybe psychology or something, but but not math, and maybe as and aside in astronomy. So that kind of thing could be accounted for as well by the degree of overlap. And on it goes.

But if you get those straight for yourself, it will show in the picture. IDvolution, I’m guessing is your word for Intelligent Design. You have to be aware that wherever you put that, there will be controversy. But in any case, such a diagram as you constructed is an aid in visualizing and comprehending relationships. I hope that helps.
I am illustrating that Revelation informs faith and that science informs reason. Where they overlap is where faith and reason both have to be true. The area of overlap could get larger or smaller. IDvolution is the next step beyond ID the science. It is not constrained by empiricism. It can play in both the faith as well as reason realm. ID the science would be in the science circle.

The line each circle traces is the boundary of its own frame of reference. So we can only know what is inside the frame unless information is transmitted to us from outside the frame.

The area of uncertainty is whether God uses other ways to inform us. Perhaps angels could be put there. But God does inform us directly so I have brain drain in how to draw it up.
 
Right. And all that you said ff goes to show that it is unreasonable therefore to use even Fr. Spitzer’s new book as other than a possible direction of inquiry. I cannot deny God based on my own experience, au very contraire. I’m just saying that it is as useless to use science as “proof” as it is to say that science is math, though math is included in science.

Certainly one can be aroused to a sense of wonder and awe by science and math, feeling that there must necesarily be a God. But such wonder and awe, even though based on recent science, has no more authority in this matter than do the emotions of a Neanderthal faced with a thunderstorm, an eclipse, or a sunset. Why would we assume that our science is at or near an end point in explaining the Infinity of Universe? Despite our advances, given Infinity, are we any closer than the Neanderthals in terms of “proof” by eclipse or lightning? I don’t think so; we are just arrogant. I maintain that though belief is actual as a factor in our psyche, it is not real in the sense that a mathematical proof describes an actual dynamic of relationship useful in prediction. Our faith is not useful in prediction even nearly as non-math science is. Faith is belief is not knowledge. Faith, indeed, is a grown-up word for “let’s pretend.”

Faith, any faith, might as well be sociology, except weaker. At least some sociology is statistically useful. Ultimately we beleive because we want to. And in this we are no different looking at “constants” than ancient man first looking at fire or a starry sky. We don’t KNOW; we believe. And as we all know, we we as humans will stake even our lives on being right rather than admit being wrong, even in a belief. We project, superimpoisng what we want as an explanation over the phenomenon we partially observe with our exceptionally limited senses and limited logic.

Most of our logic doesn’t even go beyond one or two dimensions, especially regarding religion, when by math we might be looking at eleven as far as even physical reality is concerned! Add to that that faith is often a set of emotions pasted on to unverified assumptions taken as fact. If yours aren’t then ask if this doesn’t apply to someone whose religion you don’t believe. Then ask if they might not think the same about you.

What is more, if we know we don’t know, we will still use a belief as “knowledge.” In science this is fine, because we have teleology and eventyually come to some degree of self correction. In religion we have no such grace. Religions tend to be what are called “closed canons.” The beliefs aof any religon are in a creed or whatever and are the final version of that religion until there is a splinter group who see ti differently. The original faith either srvives or dies, it’s memebers cliaming til the end that they were right. This happened even in the face of Einstein’s equations. Many phyisicists went to their graves denying them. Einstein himself didn’t believe the implications of his own equations! So we have faith again denying not just science, but math!

Far be it from me to attempt to take away anyone’s faith, especially given my own position. But let’s at least have the honesty of differentiating between what we conjecture as beliefs and what we know. As humans, there is really only one thing that we can know. All the rest is consensus and ad hoc practicallity. And we use that ad hoc stuff and literary fluff to approach God when it is what we know that might in fact be the sole/soul key.
I’m very excited about the active conversation about my initial questions and comments about Fr. Spitzer’s book…has anyone out there picked it up? He talks about the difference of science and theology. Science is different than theology in that it’s inductive vs. deductive, but looking at his arguments regarding the need for an initial cause from the Big Bang and the fine-tuning of the universe, one can only say that there must be a God, by looking at the mathematical probability of this happening by chance. Maybe our OWN ideas of who God is and how wonderful his ways are need to be expanded. Science, in using the scientific method and inductive reasoning, gives us the most LIKELY answer to this question. It’s up to the individual to grasp onto humility and say we as humans don’t know it ALL, but we can develop conclusions after studying the data and either go with it or not. As for me, I’m just in awe of all the intricacies that fit so perfectly.
 
Sadly, this underscores constant attempts here to point out, by using science, that certain things recorded in the Bible could not have happened. In the meantime, God has sent Mary to deliver messages to the world. These events are recognized by the Church but are generally ignored or discredited, again by using science. The Church elevates persons to sainthood by verifying miracles attributed to their intercession. The secular press ignores such things. God has even left physical artifacts for us to see, like the cloak made of cactus fiber that should have fallen apart years ago. Our Lady of Guadalupe left an image on this cloak. It has been examined by scientists, but it is also ignored.

I encourage everyone to look up Our Lady of Guadalupe.

Wow, I believe that one can still believe in the Big Bang and believe in Chapter 1 of Genesis. If you look closely at what scientists think MAY have happened immediately post Big-Bang, one can parallel it with the book of Genesis. We must remember that TIME, is relative, so what is a day for us may not be a day in God’s time. Has anyone read the book, The Big Bang, by Gerald Schroeder? He tried to converge both scientific and religious thought on the creation and does a beautiful job of it…

God bless,
Ed
 
I’m very excited about the active conversation about my initial questions and comments about Fr. Spitzer’s book…has anyone out there picked it up? He talks about the difference of science and theology. Science is different than theology in that it’s inductive vs. deductive, but looking at his arguments regarding the need for an initial cause from the Big Bang and the fine-tuning of the universe, one can only say that there must be a God, by looking at the mathematical probability of this happening by chance. Maybe our OWN ideas of who God is and how wonderful his ways are need to be expanded. Science, in using the scientific method and inductive reasoning, gives us the most LIKELY answer to this question. It’s up to the individual to grasp onto humility and say we as humans don’t know it ALL, but we can develop conclusions after studying the data and either go with it or not. As for me, I’m just in awe of all the intricacies that fit so perfectly.
Yes, that is all wonderful and causing of wonder. But really, speaking as one who knows God to BE, if things didn’t fit that perfectly and still worked then we would actually have an extra scientific basis for believing in a God. For my part, both science and religion are leaving out significant propositions in their limited ways of approach. But at least science is teleological and admiting of its own limited scope, whereas the faiths tend to go by way of closed cannon and schism.
 
tuno

So what is the difference then, in the “Laws of Nature,” and “Natural Law?” The way I see it, if we stuck to “natural law,” we would not have airplanes.

The Church has never taught that. If the Church had taught any such thing it would not only forbid the riding of airplanes, but also the riding of horses. I’m sure the Church has never regarded the riding of horses as against the natural law.:rolleyes:

Seriously,

Aquinas made very clear his doctrine against the teaching of the double truth. With respect to the most important truths, a thing cannot be true in religion and false in science. For example, if the Scriptures teach that the universe was created, as Moses said, then science cannot be true when it says that the universe always existed (as Einstein believed). The discovery of the Big Bang has come down on the side of Moses, rather than Einstein.

As for the Venn diagram, the Big Bang overlaps Genesis.
 
acochran742
Fr. Spitzer’s book…has anyone out there picked it up? He talks about the difference of science and theology.
Interested readers will find a great examination of the relationship of the sciences at:
rtforum.org/lt/lt123.html

If “science” is defined merely to coincide with empirical science, there results a false concept of science and an impoverished idea of reality. Technical science, as distinguished from common sense, is “certified knowledge,” and some assume that only the knowledge gained from empirical science is really certified, into which they might throw historical knowledge in a broader sense. But there are other areas and levels of technical science that also give certified knowledge. Not only is there true historical science, but, in the midst of the widespread confusion and misunderstanding in the field known today as “modern philosophy,” there is still an area of true philosophical science, if one can manage to find it, and it resides in Scholastic philosophy. Again, there is still an area of theological science, and it resides today especially in Scholastic theology, and the knowledge presented in these latter two sciences is also objectively true and real.

Anthony Rizzi, in *The Science Before Science *(Baton Rouge, LA: IAP Press, 2004, reviewed by Msgr John F. McCarthy:
The dominant theme of this book is that sound philosophy is a science on a par with the empirical sciences and is actually a prerequisite for proper thinking even in the empirical sciences. Philosophy is that field of certified knowledge “that seeks and studies first principles of all things” (p. 4). A general problem that is treated throughout Rizzi’a book stems from the common attitude among empirical scientists that philosophical principles are foreign and even harmful to their field of study. But their very opposition to philosophy is itself an implicit philosophy (p. 9).
The trouble is that those who refuse to recognize any sound philosophical principles in their thinking about empirical science become the victims of blind religious, or more often anti-religious, opinion that ends up in religious fideism having no foundation in reason or in a subjectivism which subordinates objective reality to their own ego (p. 19). Rizzi uses the moderate realism of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas to develop a mental structure that begins from one’s sense knowledge and personal experience and extends through the physical sciences to the ontological analysis of being considered in itself. He shows throughout his book that the knowledge particular to the empirical sciences must logically be rooted in objective reality, and he shows that all physical scientists do in fact maintain a working assumption that they are dealing with objective reality even though they may claim otherwise (pp. xvi and 57). But wrong philosophies have always been with us, to the extent that “the most formidable enemy of science today is subjectivism” (p. xix). Rizzi treats of various idealistic systems of philosophy, such as those of Heraclitus and Parmenides in ancient times and of Descartes, Kant, Hegel and Leibniz in modern times, always to show how their great minds “fashioned great systems of clarity and force that, nevertheless, crashed against the rock of reality” (p. 11).
 
Abu

A general problem that is treated throughout Rizzi’a book stems from the common attitude among empirical scientists that philosophical principles are foreign and even harmful to their field of study. But their very opposition to philosophy is itself an implicit philosophy.

Good point. Their opposition to religion is also an implicit aspect of their philosophy. This has come to be called the heresy of scientism (a word not yet in the dictionary … heresy being defined as a falsehood).
 
QUOTE=Abu;6966632]
Interested readers will find a great examination of the relationship of the sciences at:
rtforum.org/lt/lt123.html
I haven’t been able to find this book in our local university library, so I can’t comment on the book directly.
If “science” is defined merely to coincide with empirical science, there results a false concept of science and an impoverished idea of reality. Technical science, as distinguished from common sense, is “certified knowledge,” and some assume that only the knowledge gained from empirical science is really certified, into which they might throw historical knowledge in a broader sense.
I think most practising scientists (myself included) and many philosophers of science would disagree with that statement. Science, almost by definition, is empirical and relies on validation by measurement to confirm theories.
But there are other areas and levels of technical science that also give certified knowledge.
I would agree that there are other areas of knowledge (I don’t know what you mean by “technical science”) that also give “certified” knowledge.
Not only is there true historical science, but, in the midst of the widespread confusion and misunderstanding in the field known today as “modern philosophy,” there is still an area of true philosophical science, if one can manage to find it, and it resides in Scholastic philosophy. Again, there is still an area of theological science, and it resides today especially in Scholastic theology, and the knowledge presented in these latter two sciences is also objectively true and real.
all these terms don’t agree with common usage of the term “science” as scientists and most philosophers understand it.
Anthony Rizzi, in *The Science Before Science *(Baton Rouge, LA: IAP Press, 2004, reviewed by Msgr John F. McCarthy:
The dominant theme of this book is that sound philosophy is a science on a par with the empirical sciences and is actually a prerequisite for proper thinking even in the empirical sciences. Philosophy is that field of certified knowledge “that seeks and studies first principles of all things” (p. 4). A general problem that is treated throughout Rizzi’a book stems from the common attitude among empirical scientists that philosophical principles are foreign and even harmful to their field of study. But their very opposition to philosophy is itself an implicit philosophy (p. 9).
I think you and possibly Rizzi are misusing the term for science. Although the derivation of the term “science” is from the classical “Scientia” (to know or knowledge), philosophy, while an important source of knowledge, is not science, since philosophical conclusions can’t be tested by experiments or observation.
The trouble is that those who refuse to recognize any sound philosophical principles in their thinking about empirical science become the victims of blind religious, or more often anti-religious, opinion that ends up in religious fideism having no foundation in reason or in a subjectivism which subordinates objective reality to their own ego (p. 19). Rizzi uses the moderate realism of Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas to develop a mental structure that begins from one’s sense knowledge and personal experience and extends through the physical sciences to the ontological analysis of being considered in itself. He shows throughout his book that the knowledge particular to the empirical sciences must logically be rooted in objective reality, and he shows that all physical scientists do in fact maintain a working assumption that they are dealing with objective reality even though they may claim otherwise (pp. xvi and 57). But wrong philosophies have always been with us, to the extent that “the most formidable enemy of science today is subjectivism” (p. xix). Rizzi treats of various idealistic systems of philosophy, such as those of Heraclitus and Parmenides in ancient times and of Descartes, Kant, Hegel and Leibniz in modern times, always to show how their great minds “fashioned great systems of clarity and force that, nevertheless, crashed against the rock of reality” (p. 11).[/QUO
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One danger of letting science be infused with philosophy or some other value system is illustrated by the corruption of science in Communist Russia and Nazi Germany; in the former case one can point to Lysenkoism and other examples pointed out by Fr. Stanley Jaki; in the latter case one can point out the rejection of general relativity, because it was formulated by the Jew Einstein. Granted, we have a firm belief in the dogma and doctrine of the Catholic Church, but that belief does not rest on scientific findings. Indeed one can show that there is no conflict between what science tells us about the world we live in (see: home.ptd.net/~rkurland
There are many eminent scientists who are dogmatic atheists (Steven Weinberg comes to mind); there are also many who are strong believers, one, a Fellow of the Royal Society, is also an Anglican priest; there have been priests who have been eminent scientists–Mendel, LeMaitre come to mind (see faith.org.uk/Publications/Magazines/May10/May10PriestlyContributionsToModernScience.html
There are colleges like St. John’s College which educate the student in all the knowledge of the Western tradition, the “100 Great Books”. I contend what is needed is not a new definition of science, but a return to the quadrivium, classical education at the college level.
[/quote]
 
there have been priests who have been eminent scientists–Mendel, LeMaitre come to mind

Not to mention Copernicus himself.

I don’t think philosophy needs to dominate science, as you point out; but I think it can be found that philosophy and science are at times somewhat compatible in their conclusions. Also, the branch of philosophy that is called ethics is very much applicable to scientific research and the application of scientific discoveries, such as nuclear weapons. The very methodology of science is the result of philosophical musings, among whom the philosophers Roger Bacon and Francis Bacon were perhaps the most memorable exponents.

Some people refer to ID as philosophy rather than science. Here is an area where I think philosophy and science can overlap. When a thing such as a single celled creature looks like it has been designed, that is an empirical observation, not a mere speculation. But when scientists say it definitely was not designed because we cannot find a designer, that is sheer speculation. Going farther, when it is alleged that a single celled creature that looks designed is the product of sheer chance, the odds of that being true are so far remote, never mind unprovable, that one hesitates to call it either science or philosophy.
 
Anselm33
I think most practising scientists (myself included) and many philosophers of science would disagree with that statement. Science, almost by definition, is empirical and relies on validation by measurement to confirm theories.
I think you and possibly Rizzi are misusing the term for science. Although the derivation of the term “science” is from the classical “Scientia” (to know or knowledge), philosophy, while an important source of knowledge, is not science, since philosophical conclusions can’t be tested by experiments or observation.
I guess that could be a problem for “most practising scientists” – a horizon limited to their own empirical field.

Theology was defined as the “Queen of sciences” in the universities of Europe. In this context “science” refers to “an organized body of knowledge” thus including subjects other than biology and the physical sciences, although it includes those as well.

Webster’s dictionary defines theology as “The science of God or of religion; the science which treats of the existence, character, and attributes of God, his laws and government, the doctrines we are to believe, and the duties we are to practice. . . the science of Christian faith and life.”

“Philosophy is the discipline that seeks to understand the causes, or principles, of things according to reason. Its object can be being, existence and nature (metaphysics), knowledge and how and what we know (epistemology and logic), religion, mathematics, natural science, culture, art etc…” (Colin P Donovan, EWTN, June 15, 2009).

Thus it is facing reality to not limit science to a reliance on experiment, observation and mathematical deduction only, as Msgr John F McCarthy explains.

rtforum.org/lt/lt126.html
4. What is science? Most books and articles written by empirical scientists on the subject of “science” avoid attempting a definition and simply declare that science is what results from the “scientific method.” In general, we may say that science is certified knowledge, and its certification comes from the use of a method that is guaranteed to produce proven results. More precisely, according to philosopher W.H. Walsh, a science is "a body of knowledge acquired as the result of an attempt to study a certain subject-matter in a methodical way, following a determinate set of guiding principles."1 This definition of science adds the element of a mental framework, to which we shall have to return later, but even this definition is not specific enough, because it fits pseudoscience as well as true science, seeing that pseudo-scientists also work in a methodical way and usually follow a determinate set, however false, of guiding principles. A further element is needed, and this is the element of “reality,” which is the characteristic of all true science. Hence, a simple but complete definition of science is “the knowledge of reality as such.” By “reality as such” is meant “reality as reality,” and this feature requires that the possessor of science is somehow focused on the notion of reality and subjecting the objects of his knowledge to his awareness of reality. For the scientific thinker as such, the notion of reality is the distinguishing concept in the mental framework that he uses in order to pursue his method. Thus all science requires the awareness of a mental framework in which adherence to the concept of reality is the specific controlling element.2

Notes
  1. W.H. Walsh, An Introduction to the Philosophy of History, 3rd rev. ed. (London: Hutchinson and Co., 1970), p. 35.
  2. See J.F. McCarthy, *The Science of Historical Theology *(2nd printing, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books and Publishers), pp. 34-42.
 
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