science and faith

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Asking for proof or evidence is the same as asking for a sign.
A wicked and adulterous generations asks for signs, according to Jesus.
Jesus rose from the dead, and still some disbelieved.
In the story of the rich man and lazarus, Abraham tell the rich man " If they don’t believe Moses and the prophets, they won’t believe even if someone rises from the dead "
This extrapolates to the entire bible, since the old and new testaments are on equal footing.
Thus if they don’t believe the bible, or any derivative teachings of christian faith, they won’t believe even witnessing resurrection. So of course they won’t believe anything less, including what they call ’ credible evidence ’ So its best to leave them to God. Let him deal with their invincible ignorance. Nothing that we could tell or show them is anything new that they haven’t seen or heard before. Therefore don’t waste time on those unwilling. Jesus never did, and we are called to act like him.
 
So traillius, we should not, according to you, regard the historical origins of religions as legitimate objects of study, only of blind faith?
 
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acochran742:
I am convinced, especially from reading posts here, that an ideology is regularly being promoted, but it’s schizophrenic.
  1. Keep God away from my science!
  2. Let’s use science to “explain” the work of God.
You see? I don’t think the goal is truth. I think the goal is not to inform the faithful, not usually. Only to get Catholics to listen to experts, who change their minds several months or several years later.

I’ll stick with documents issued by the Vatican that properly illuminate scientific questions.

God bless,
Ed
 
So traillius, we should not, according to you, regard the historical origins of religions as legitimate objects of study, only of blind faith?
Not as a function of science, which is not a sufficient forum for studies of that nature.
 
I am convinced, especially from reading posts here, that an ideology is regularly being promoted, but it’s schizophrenic.
  1. Keep God away from my science!
  2. Let’s use science to “explain” the work of God.
You see? I don’t think the goal is truth. I think the goal is not to inform the faithful, not usually. Only to get Catholics to listen to experts, who change their minds several months or several years later.

I’ll stick with documents issued by the Vatican that properly illuminate scientific questions.

God bless,
Ed
Make sense to me. They seem to have a predisposition, caused by some impediment external to the argument, that makes them unwilling to accept the conclusion. Therefore, they must find some way to either discredit the argument, even if they must employ error to do so, or embrace some form of ad hominem. They dispute the argument, basically, on the grounds that they disagree with the conclusion. Flawed, and certainly not made evident directly, but prevalent.
 
traillius

*So of course they won’t believe anything less, including what they call ’ credible evidence ’ So its best to leave them to God. Let him deal with their invincible ignorance. Nothing that we could tell or show them is anything new that they haven’t seen or heard before. Therefore don’t waste time on those unwilling. Jesus never did, and we are called to act like him. *

Your sentiment is not unusual among apologists. I likewise have been tempted often at CA to kick the dust of this town from my feet and move on … especially with the invincibly obstinate, some of who seem to be here not to pursue the truth, but to play head games and smack people around. One of these days I may have to act more like Jesus. 👍
 
Not as a function of science, which is not a sufficient forum for studies of that nature.
OK then, what do we use? We’re not to use spectroscopy or other methods to test the shroud of Turin? Or leave saponifcation out of the equation when presented with a preserved body? Or can we maybe apply forensic linguistics to discover the authorship of Epistles attributed to Paul and Peter? I guess we could in every case throw up our hands and just say “God did it; I’m satisfied. Let’s go home.”

And as for the claim of schizophrenia, science makes no pretext of explaining works of God as such, only of understanding the mechanics of things within the pervue of the scientific method. So far, the predictive results of scientific method work universally regardless of the faith, or lack of, of the one using them. Gravity works equally well for atheists, agnostics, and the mid westerners who say that gravity is God pushing things back to Earth. The equations still work; they are religion neutral.

But similarly to the above throwing up of hands, we would have to do that if we allowed religion into science. We could have a scenario where we have the scientists looking at the chalk board full of equations where the last element before the = is {and then a miracle happens}. Oh–wait a minute–we could let the One True Religion inform science and maybe have another Dark Age! But then, we would have to scientifically decide which is the one true religion. But wait! we could do that by faith! Uh-oh…how do we decide which faith is deeper or truer? St. Augustine in Retractiones claimed the true religion “existed among the ancients also.” Did he mean Egypt or Mesopotamia or where? I don’t know… I’m getting confused. I’ll just pray on how to do science based on religion. I hope He tells me which one, not just something general…I mean what if the Pocomaniacs are right, or the Christadelphians, or or or or or ARRRRRGHHHH:eek:

Hey: What if I just watch and described how things work and make corrections when I see I’m wrong, use the results and simply offer prayers of gratitude based on wonder to the Source of every good and Perfect gift, and let others do the same by their lights while we enjoy the marshmallows and beer as we read each other poetry here by the fire?
 
Tuno
we could let the One True Religion inform science and maybe have another Dark Age!
The “Dark Ages” are pure myth, like so many other slanders that try to discredit Christ and His Church. Still the gullible are unable to see the wood for the trees.

catholicleague.org/research/catholicism_and_science.htm
Catholicism and Science by Rodney Stark (from Catalyst 9/2004)

“The progress achieved during the “Dark Ages” was not merely technological. Medieval Europe excelled in philosophy and science. The term “Scientific Revolution” is in many ways as misleading as “Dark Ages.” Both were coined to discredit the medieval Church. The notion of a “Scientific Revolution” has been used to claim that science suddenly burst forth when a weakened Christianity could no longer prevent it, and as the recovery of classical learning made it possible. Both claims are as false as those concerning Columbus and the flat earth.

“These tales are rooted in books like A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom, an influential reference by Andrew Dickson White, founder and first president of Cornell University. White claimed that even after Columbus’ return “the Church by its highest authority solemnly stumbled and persisted in going astray.”

“The trouble is, almost every word of White’s account of the Columbus story is a lie. All educated persons of Columbus’ day, very much including the Roman Catholic prelates, knew the earth was round.”
 
Yes, Abu, I agree with you somewhat, yet there was darkness in that age. And as for Columbus, of course he and most everyone knew the world was round. There was, I believe some debate about how round. There was no debate that in the name of Christendom he committed atrocities on innocents whom he evaluated thus: “They are artless and generous with what they have, to such a degree as no one would believe but him who had seen it. Of anything they have, if it be asked for, they never say no, but do rather invite the person to accept it, and show as much lovingness as though they would give their hearts.” He said other remarkable things about them regarding how they conformed to what we understand as the Golden Rule and “love they neighbor.” Then in the name of conversion and riches, he proceeded to decimate them by torture, rape, and exploitation, his soldiers often feeding the bodies to their hunting dogs. I would think the Knights of might reconsider their name, don’t you?
 
Tuno

OK then, what do we use? We’re not to use spectroscopy or other methods to test the shroud of Turin? Or leave saponifcation out of the equation when presented with a preserved body? Or can we maybe apply forensic linguistics to discover the authorship of Epistles attributed to Paul and Peter? I guess we could in every case throw up our hands and just say “God did it; I’m satisfied. Let’s go home.”

I get so tired of listening to junk speculations.

Newton was a believer in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. He did rather well as a scientist, don’t you think, without needing to refer to Scripture every equation or so to see if he was towing the mark? See the quote below.
 
Tuno

*I would think the Knights of might reconsider their name, don’t you? *

Being one, I think not. 😃

Columbus found what no one else had found, the midway point between North and South America. He bravely explored the seas and the land and suffered many hardships. The many slanders against him are largely made up. That he was not perfect goes without saying. No Knight of Columbus is perfect either. We do not go about stabbing atheists and feeding them to our dogs.

If you want to get into the slander game, I’m sure we can find plenty of atheists to pillory, including Stalin, Hitler, and Mao whom many atheists worshiped a good deal more than I’d worship Columbus.
 
First, perhaps you didn’t include the last of my remarks on that post in your consideration. And second, if what you say by quoting Newton is correct, why are there libraries of work, including Catholic authors, who doubt everything from the Biblical basis of an immortal soul to the origins of our faith itself, and it is all based on what appears to be good scholarship, with few notable exceptions. So, go figure.

And we were talking specifically about Columbus, who did with his men do those things. There’s your hero. I came, myself, as far as being about to be sworn in to the K of C. At the last moment, my conscience wouldn’t let me. I doffed the robe and left.
 
Tuno

*And we were talking specifically about Columbus, who did with his men do those things. There’s your hero. I came, myself, as far as being about to be sworn in to the K of C. At the last moment, my conscience wouldn’t let me. I doffed the robe and left. *

Does the fact that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington both owned slaves make you want to give up your American citizenship? Do you, knowing they owned slaves, have no more respect for other great things they accomplished?

Do you know that in his later years Columbus became a more deeply religious man than he had been in his youth? Does this count for nothing?
 
Tuno

And second, if what you say by quoting Newton is correct, why are there libraries of work, including Catholic authors, who doubt everything from the** Biblical basis of an immortal soul **to the origins of our faith itself, and it is all based on what appears to be good scholarship, with few notable exceptions. So, go figure.

There cannot be any good scholarship that doubts the biblical basis for the soul. 👍

If you think there is, you might remember that appearances may be deceiving. 😉
 
OK then, what do we use? We’re not to use spectroscopy or other methods to test the shroud of Turin? Or leave saponifcation out of the equation when presented with a preserved body? Or can we maybe apply forensic linguistics to discover the authorship of Epistles attributed to Paul and Peter? I guess we could in every case throw up our hands and just say “God did it; I’m satisfied. Let’s go home.”

And as for the claim of schizophrenia, science makes no pretext of explaining works of God as such, only of understanding the mechanics of things within the pervue of the scientific method. So far, the predictive results of scientific method work universally regardless of the faith, or lack of, of the one using them. Gravity works equally well for atheists, agnostics, and the mid westerners who say that gravity is God pushing things back to Earth. The equations still work; they are religion neutral.

But similarly to the above throwing up of hands, we would have to do that if we allowed religion into science. We could have a scenario where we have the scientists looking at the chalk board full of equations where the last element before the = is {and then a miracle happens}. Oh–wait a minute–we could let the One True Religion inform science and maybe have another Dark Age! But then, we would have to scientifically decide which is the one true religion. But wait! we could do that by faith! Uh-oh…how do we decide which faith is deeper or truer? St. Augustine in Retractiones claimed the true religion “existed among the ancients also.” Did he mean Egypt or Mesopotamia or where? I don’t know… I’m getting confused. I’ll just pray on how to do science based on religion. I hope He tells me which one, not just something general…I mean what if the Pocomaniacs are right, or the Christadelphians, or or or or or ARRRRRGHHHH:eek:

Hey: What if I just watch and described how things work and make corrections when I see I’m wrong, use the results and simply offer prayers of gratitude based on wonder to the Source of every good and Perfect gift, and let others do the same by their lights while we enjoy the marshmallows and beer as we read each other poetry here by the fire?
Uh huh. The good ol’ Dark Ages argument. Still meaningless and still without substance.

If I tell you I believe God created the world and man in six days, what will happen?

I’ll forget how to drive?
Use my cell phone?
Operate my computer?

If you can’t put God under a microscope then why waste time trying to explain His work in the Bible? Can you show me a single peer reviewed scientific paper that includes God? How about - “Investigations of Claims Made in the Book of Genesis of the Christian Bible”?

People who post comments or opinions about the Bible have zero science to back them up with. No peer reviewed papers - nothing.

Or do you think it will be Constitutional to check every backpack of every public school student to make sure he or she is not bringing anti-science literature into the building?

Puh leeeeeeez

God bless,
Ed
 
Tuno
science makes no pretext of explaining works of God as such, only of understanding the mechanics of things within the pervue of the scientific method.
Facing Reality
The very development of empirical science came about because of the Catholic understanding that God the Creator made the world with laws which could be discovered through cause and effect.

“The rise of science was not an extension of classical learning. It was the natural outgrowth of Christian doctrine: nature exists because it was created by God. In order to love and honor God, it is necessary to fully appreciate his handiwork. Because God is perfect, his handiwork functions in accord with immutable principles. By the full use of our God-given powers of reason and observation, it ought to be possible to discover these principles.

“These were the crucial ideas that explain why science arose in Christian Europe and nowhere else.” The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 22-23].

Catholicism and Science by Rodney Stark (from Catalyst 9/2004):
“It is the consensus among contemporary historians, philosophers, and sociologists of science that real science arose only once: in Europe. It is instructive that China, Islam, India, ancient Greece, and Rome all had a highly developed alchemy. But only in Europe did alchemy develop into chemistry. By the same token, many societies developed elaborate systems of astrology, but only in Europe did astrology lead to astronomy. And these transformations took place at a time when folklore has it that a fanatical Christianity was imposing a general ignorance on Europe—the so-called Dark Ages.”
 
The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 22-23].

Catholicism and Science by Rodney Stark (from Catalyst 9/2004)

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Now I understand why you are so hopelessly confused! We’re done, Abu. Nice chatting.
 
Sneering and jeering is not really facing the reality that is creation, and discovering the laws of cause and effect. It is the last refuge of the puerile.

BTW, even while considering philosophy as a “faith”, Friedrich Nietzsche (‘God is dead’) could write of empirical science: “Strictly speaking there is no such thing as science ‘without any presuppositions’… a philosophy, a ‘faith’, must always be there first, so that science can acquire a direction, a meaning, a limit, a method, a right to exist… It is still a metaphysical faith that underlines our faith in science.” (*Genealogy of Morals *III, 23-24).

The question would then be: in what faith does a scientist believe?
 
Abu
*
"By the same token, many societies developed elaborate systems of astrology, but only in Europe did astrology lead to astronomy. And these transformations took place at a time when folklore has it that a fanatical Christianity was imposing a general ignorance on Europe—the so-called Dark Ages.”*

Good point. The Catholic Church, not individual thinkers rebelling against the Church, invented the European university system and endowed it generously with funds and scholars. Without that backing, it is difficult to see how communities of intellectuals could ever have developed without the seeds planted by the Church. Aquinas did much to resurrect Aristotle, whose interest in science was very instrumental in the great awakening that followed through the next three centuries. To be sure, Aristotle’s science was deeply flawed, but we are talking about the stimulation he provided to scientific scholars like Roger Bacon (a priest) and Albertus Magnus (a bishop), who prepared the way for Copernicus (a priest) and Galileo and Newton.
 
The “Dark Ages” are pure myth, like so many other slanders that try to discredit Christ and His Church. Still the gullible are unable to see the wood for the trees.

catholicleague.org/research/catholicism_and_science.htm
Catholicism and Science by Rodney Stark (from Catalyst 9/2004)

“The progress achieved during the “Dark Ages” was not merely technological. Medieval Europe excelled in philosophy and science. The term “Scientific Revolution” is in many ways as misleading as “Dark Ages.” Both were coined to discredit the medieval Church. The notion of a “Scientific Revolution” has been used to claim that science suddenly burst forth when a weakened Christianity could no longer prevent it, and as the recovery of classical learning made it possible. Both claims are as false as those concerning Columbus and the flat earth.

“These tales are rooted in books like A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom, an influential reference by Andrew Dickson White, founder and first president of Cornell University. White claimed that even after Columbus’ return “the Church by its highest authority solemnly stumbled and persisted in going astray.”

“The trouble is, almost every word of White’s account of the Columbus story is a lie. All educated persons of Columbus’ day, very much including the Roman Catholic prelates, knew the earth was round.”
Just been reading the last page of this thread. As a layman, not compromised by any compulsory indoctrination to obtain degrees in science or faith, I took an interest in the subject of faith and science some twenty years ago. In order to know that White was an anti-Catholic bigot in the propaganda business, one had to do a deep study of the history of faith and science throughout the ages. The first conclusion I came to was the following:
Having reconciled Aristotle’s metaphysics with Christianity, it was then time to cleanse other ideas of the Greek scholar’s in the light of Christian Revelation and dogmas of the Catholic Church, the understanding that everything presupposes the Creation by God. This occurred in 1277AD, when Bishop Étienne Tempier of Paris banned 219 propositions of Aristotle’s from the University at Sorbonne, the leading school of learning at the time. For example, Aristotle, aware ‘it is impossible to make something out of nothing,’ reasoned that the universe must always have existed. The Old Testament however, reveals that the world had a beginning in time when God created it. Here then, in 1277, the theology of the Church began to assert itself over the rational ideas of man. Other metaphysical beliefs shared by all the major pagan cultures including the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Hindus, the Chinese, as well as the Greeks, were then eliminated from the Sorbonne, myths like Animism (that the world is an animal); Pantheism (that the world and God are the same thing); Astrology (that the movement of the stars influence happenings and people on earth), and Cyclic History (that all events in history repeat themselves exactly in time). It was the removal of these heresies that opened up the doors to natural science. For example, Pantheism holds that God and the world are the same. How then could nature be investigated objectively? But a world created by God offered intelligibility in creation that could be examined. This of course led to discoveries in many fields that showed an interacting world working according to natural laws.

Catholics on this -and all other related threads however believe it was happy Catholic science ever after, naming Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo and Newton as their Christian champions of science. Not so, for these four men were directly responsible for handing science back to paganism. To understand how the Devil overcame - yes you atheists, I totally accept the existence of the Devil, and I now know he is far cleverer that Catholics are taught to believe - the move by Christianity in 1277 to construct science in accord with the truths of faith, a path where neither could put a foot wrong, one ought to read books like Talisman, Rheticus, etc., where one can find the roots of modern (natural) science. For example, where did Copernicus get his inspiration for heliocentrism from? What did he discover that led to the world of science going down the road of heliocentrism as the true path of science? Once installed this heliocentric ‘science’ led inevitably to Big Bang evolutionism, the ideology that now controls and directs all the natural sciences today, sciences that have convinced millions belief in a deity is no longer necessary.
The fact is that I could not find one single scientific discovery that can be attributed to Copernicus. Not one single star, one new cosmic movement, nor one sighting that added to the progress of astromomy up to that time.
A further reading shows that Copernicus and Kepler obtained their inspiration from reading the Hermetica, the books of ‘wisdom and knowledge’ handed down from the god Toth to Hermes Trismegatus, paganism at its best when the sun was GOD, the creator of all life. Indeed the Renaissance (Rebirth) is but another name for the rebirth of these pagan ideas rediscovered after 1000 years and distributed throughout Europe in the 1400s and 1500s.

So clever was the Devil that for centuries, not only lay people, scholars, philosophers and scientists today, but the popes themselves, think and boast of the great legacy of science given to the world by Christianity when in fact Lucifer is falling around laughing at Catholics trying to adjust Catholic theology and even dogmas to keep up with the paganism he planted back in Europe in 1543.
 
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