Science and family:are there ANY good workplace conditions out there?!

[alice24]

Ok, I´m stressed out right now. Lost one job of two some hours ago, financial support for the last semester of my studies is a HUGE bureaucratic mess as for all for people without parents with money here and all there years of sky high mountains of paperwork for…one year contracts with the term of constant flexibility to move thousands of miles away. I am so tired.
Is there someone, mainly in the university field (as historian, as me for example) who has found a way to combine this with family life as a woman?
The answer of my male coworkers and chefs at workshops to the question “what does your wife” is in most cases NOT “the same as me” if they have children and she still works, and I start to understand why. There is simply no time for that.

Sorry, I am just sooo tired of this whole work circumstance issue as a young woman.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Ok, I´m stressed out right now. Lost one job of two some hours ago, financial support for the last semester of my studies is a HUGE bureaucratic mess as for all for people without parents with money here and all there years of sky high mountains of paperwork for…one year contracts with the term of constant flexibility to move thousands of miles away. I am so tired.
Is there someone, mainly in the university field (as historian, as me for example) who has found a way to combine this with family life as a woman?
The answer of my male coworkers and chefs at workshops to the question “what does your wife” is in most cases NOT “the same as me” if they have children and she still works, and I start to understand why. There is simply no time for that.

Sorry, I am just sooo tired of this whole work circumstance issue as a young woman.

Why should work for women be any different than men?

Women shouldn’t be doing paperwork, or expected to be flexible in a job that demands it?

Parenting takes effort from both spouses. Both cannot have demanding careers and still give the children necessary attention.

If you have your masters and teaching experience and want to stay at uni level, there’s always teaching adjunct, especially online adjunct.

But, no offense, a young adult should really look at the career path for the degree they pursue. History, English, philosophy, religion, psychology, art…these are all degrees that basically fodder for more higher education or jobs that will demand odd hours and time. Want a 9-5? Get a degree that is condusive to 9-5. Non-retail management, engineering, elementary teaching…etc.

There are many Catholic mothers in medicine. It is clear that the husband stepped into the caregiver role or they had family that did or they simply hired someone who became “like family” and did the day-to-day work of raising children.

Being a woman dosn’t create any more circumstances than it does for men. A supportive spouse is what is needed.

 

[alice24]

Well, If you get fired when you are pregnant, then there is a huge differnece between men and women. Of course both spouses should take care for the children, but I simply can not choose to work full time during pregnancy. As a man, you can choose to do this, even if it is not the best option, but a way to not get fired.

That university work is not a 9 to 5 job as other jobs is half true. I worked for many years at the “free economy” and wouldn´t have the chance to have time for children, so I got a better education to “have good conditions when I am older”. I love what I do, the main work, the research. I think it doesn´t have to be like this at work, and this makes me sad.
Now I am visiting conferences where the level of ultra chauvinistic talk is frightening, as, by the way, the constant blaming of religion (and I´m not showing my believes that openly and still feel it).

 

[alice24]

A “supporting spouse” means a spouse with a good job, my future husbands is working in the same department as me and we are both not from rich families. He will make his doctor soon and for the years after, there will not be financial security or time. He is a wonderful and good human and does a well job, and I hate the fact that he will have to give it up for supporting me maybe.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Well, If you get fired when you are pregnant, then there is a huge differnece between men and women. Of course both spouses should take care for the children, but I simply can not choose to work full time during pregnancy. As a man, you can choose to do this, even if it is not the best option, but a way to not get fired.

That university work is not a 9 to 5 job as other jobs is half true. I worked for many years at the “free economy” and wouldn´t have the chance to have time for children, so I got a better education to “have good conditions when I am older”. I love what I do, the main work, the research. I think it doesn´t have to be like this at work, and this makes me sad.
Now I am visiting conferences where the level of ultra chauvinistic talk is frightening, as, by the way, the constant blaming of religion (and I´m not showing my believes that openly and still feel it).

I couldn’t work when I was pregnant due to medical complications.

But my husband and I handled that as MEDICAL COMPLICATIONS not as “wahhhhh I’m female I’m pregnant”

If you have no medical condition then I mean really? Wanting time off during an otherwise healthy pregnancy? Most SAHM’s are running around like crazy during pregnancy tend to their older children. Life dosn’t stop because you’re having a baby.

You went into a field either not knowing anything about it, or knowing it was anti-religion. Why are you surprised?

And parenting means, sometimes, giving up on what you want for the sake of your children or modifying your behavior so you get the financial security or raise quicker.

It sounds like what you want is a fantasy job that respects delicate femininity, doesn’t expect the same out of men and women and doesn’t have any issue with that.

 

[alice24]

You like to paint an image of me as I was a super-emotional, childish princess girl who wants to have a nice day at work, that is what it seems to me - I am sorry if I get you wrong in this case, maybe I am just stressed out.

Of course I want to work until I have to go in mother protection, but as I wrote above, I will get fired when I am pregnant. This is a differnece to “I don´t want to work”.
Why should I have known this before? Both is not true.
I don´t see why an environment of historians, catholic and protestant scholars and art historians (our department) should be anti-religious by nature. It wasn´t like that for some years, it has changed, some of my older coworkers also say this.

What is modifying my behaviour?
Sorry, I am working far more than 40 h/week, have best grades in my exams, work experiences too. I have a cooking plan to save money, buy only cheap or secondhand and so on.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

You like to paint an image of me as I was a super-emotional, childish princess girl who wants to have a nice day at work, that is what it seems to me - I am sorry if I get you wrong in this case, maybe I am just stressed out.

Of course I want to work until I have to go in mother protection, but as I wrote above, I will get fired when I am pregnant. This is a differnece to “I don´t want to work”.
Why should I have known this before? Both is not true.
I don´t see why an environment of historians, catholic and protestant scholars and art historians (our department) should be anti-religious by nature. It wasn´t like that for some years, it has changed, some of my older coworkers also say this.

What is modifying my behaviour?
Sorry, I am working far more than 40 h/week, have best grades in my exams, work experiences too. I have a cooking plan to save money, buy only cheap or secondhand and so on.

Are you in the US. Being fired for being pregnant is illegal, but of course, they can always find other reasons. However, given the number of lawsuits regarding pregnancy firings, most companies do not mess with this. If yours does (sounds like a uni) then it’s only a matter of time before they get theirs. And, if it’s just your uni that’s the issue—then you’re going to have to move. Most are EEOP employeers. If your’s isn’t then you should get out.

Honestly, you do sound spoiled. You have chosen a career that you like but is, for whatever reason, incompatible with family life. You have chosen to go back for education in a field that has issues with religion. You dwell on what “should be” but what isn’t. I worked in higher education for 8+ years. There “should be” more women in tech, since women founded computer studies and early computer science declared that the detailed work was great for women…but it isn’t that way. Yes, some men were idiots who gave women a hard time, but it was part of the gig.

Part of being an adult is looking at future opportunities and seeing what one can and cannot do with them. Education is an investment of hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars. To go into it without knowing outcomes is just foolish.

I have to laugh at your “I have a cooking plan to save money” What in the HECK do you think most Americans, especially SAH/WFH moms do? LOL. :crazy_face: Just LOL. That’s nothing special. I cook for my family on just over half of what would be a food stamp budget. (something in the order of $ 1.50 per person per day ,food stamp is north of $4 per person per day). I’ve gotten 50+ meals out of an 8lb ham. So do tell me how you “meal plan” LOL.

Buying cheap and second hand? That’s cute. Really, it is. Great for you. When my husband and I got married the majority of the stuff we found and bought and gathered over our years as singles we gave to other singles just starting off. Circle of life.

But it’s not some kind of unusual or hard life. It’s what being a young professional is all about. You make sacrifices.

 

[alice24]

I won´t play the “I need to make you believe how hard my life is” game here. I think no one with a fulltime job, good grades and the will to do a good job should fear loosing a 9 qm room he or she can only pay with the help of food charity. No one should fear being sick because of job loss and the costs for medicine.
So, in general, there were my problems in the last years, sorry for my oh-so childish wish to work in an area that suit me well. They don´t tell you that you won´t be able to pay your rent as a doctor here, things are changing, should I be sorry for not planing my life worst case and got a safe job? I don´t see what this job is called, fantasy?
There is a reason why “academics get less children” in Germany (I live there) and I don´t think the answer to this should be “shut up and accept it, you could have made another job”.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I won´t play the “I need to make you believe how hard my live is” game here. I think no one with a fulltime job, good grades and the will to do a good job should fear loosing a 9 qm room he or she can only pay with the help of food charity. No one should fear being sick because of job loss and the costs for medicine.
So, in general, there were my problems in the last years, sorry for my oh-so childish wish to work in an area that suit me well. They don´t tell you that you won´t be able to pay your rent as a doctor here, things are changing, should I be sorry for not planing my life worst case and got a safe job? I don´t see what this job is called, fantasy?
There is a reason why “academics get less children” in Germany (I live there) and I don´t think the answer to this should be “shut up and accept it, you could have made another job”.

You don’t need to play the “how hard my life is game” although you’re trying.

You speak English well, so perhaps you can move to a more “enlightened” country. Germans also have excellent maternity and time off policies.

They also don’t allow homeschooling, one of the reasons I’d never live there.

You do need to be reasonable as to what can be done in your career to have the kind of family life you desire.

The answer IS—if your career won’t allow you the family life you want PICK ANOTHER. My friend’s husband was a skydiving teacher. Not conducive or safe for a father to do full time…so he went into another field. My brother, drempt of being a “hotshot” firefighter. (an elite of the elite) He was actually accepted shortly before he was married. He gave up that dream because, again, not the work of a family man–or at least for his family.

This notion that you should just be able to do what you want is ridiculous. Family means sacrifice in both career and personal life. If your “dream job” is not condusive to a family, then you need to find a job that you can do that is.

 

[alice24]

I really don´t see where there are those “excellent maternity and time off policies” - I guess you know them in theory, not the real circumstances.
Moving is no option. I have to take care for some sick relatives here, and I don´t think the rest of europe is that better when it comes to financial security. Germany is in many ways a good country to live, but there are three options when it comes to family life:

1. You are born rich and can take the time for your family .
2. You aren´t rich and want too have children at a younger age: You end dependent on a social care system for workless people what I don´t want.
   3.You wait with the children until you are 35 or so and have saved enough money. (No option because of health reasons)

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I really don´t see where there are those “excellent maternity and time off policies” - I guess you know them in theory, not the real circumstances.
Moving is no option. I have to take care for some sick relatives here, and I don´t think the rest of europe is that better when it comes to financial security. Germany is in many ways a good country to live, but there are three options when it comes to family life:

1. You are born rich and can take the time for your family .
2. You aren´t rich and want too have children at a younger age: You end dependent on a social care system for workless people what I don´t want.
   3.You wait with the children until you are 35 or so and have saved enough money. (No option because of health reasons)

Sorry. I know about Muuter Care. You get a year off in Germany post-baby. My cousin had both her children there. American you get 6 weeks, unpaid. Don’t try and tell me that you’re somehow worse off. My cousin and her husband are now nearing 30, and they were in their mid 20’s when they had their boys. She loved the social support and other moms. Or is this what you’re arguing against? Paid maternity leave? OOOOOOOOOKKKKKKK.

I’m totally side-eyeing your version of Germany. Like I said, it has many things that I disagree with absolutely–like no homeschooling…but they have a huge social safety net. They basically take the month of August as a vacation. The social support system there is better than most places around the world.

And unless you’ve pulled out of the nationwide health coverage and opted for your own, private care, Germany is considered one of the best.

Also, if you’re going to argue something, you should be informed. The average age of a first time Mom in Germany is 29.

You could argue the same thing in most developed countries. Older parenting is very common.

If you want something, you can find a way to make it work. Obviously, most people are not waiting until 35. German pre-natal care is among the best in the world–that is–if you aren’t pulling yourself off of state care so you can have more money.

 

[Clementine14]

I’m actually not completely sure about what you are asking- what do you consider “good workplace conditions”? Do you currently have children?

I have worked in higher education most of my career (I am in my mid-thirties), doing both research and teaching. Full time before I had our son, and now I teach part time as an adjunct. (I also worked full time throughout my entire pregnancy- unless there are health complications I don’t see why this isn’t possible?) It’s not much money but it helps us out a little and keeps my resume fresh. I had always wanted to be a SAHM without having to work outside the home for at least a few years, but that is not realistic or affordable for our family.

I also do not have any child care for my son, and balancing his care with my job (which is about 20 hours/week) is difficult. If you want (and/or need) to have a family and a career, there are all kinds of ways to make it work, but that doesn’t mean it won’t be hard. My job does not pay very well but it is flexible allows me to stay home with our child for now, and for that I am grateful. Perhaps an arrangement like this would work for you?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

In Germany thins are far better for women and their choices than in America.

They do give parents a “child allowance” of about $216 American dollars per child per month and even more if the parent chooses to work less than 30 hours a week.

This money is available to all EU or EEA citizens.

I was able to look it up and it appears that Germany has stronger protections for pregnant women than in the US!!!

https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/maternity_protection.html

 

[TheLittleLady]

Do I have this right? You are a young woman, pregnant and engaged to be married. You are in school (post graduate school?) and it takes two jobs for you to make ends meet.

Am I on the right track?

Your fiancee is in med school and will be a doctor?

You wonder if there is a job out there that will bring in money to support your young family while your husband finishes med school and gets established as a doctor.

If I have that right, I’ll take a stab at it.

I don’t know about the German medical fields, but, in the US nursing school is a grueling couple of years but you then have good flexibility for scheduling and the pay is good.

Another thing to think of is starting your own business. Maybe photography? Shooting weddings, family photos and baby pictures can be done without a studio.

Something else that is a very family flexible friendly career is as a hairdresser. Here the schooling is 9 months, and you do work in the later months of the training. After that you can pretty much set your own schedule.

Tutoring, personal cheffing, heck helping people organize their closets or housecleaning these are all easy entry businesses than can be flexible.

 

[AlNg]

I don´t see why an environment of historians, catholic and protestant scholars and art historians (our department) should be anti-religious by nature.

Some historians believe it was a bit cruel to burn people at the stake for a religious disagreement. For example, Henry Charles Lea.

 

[alice24]

Not at all, sorry, my writing was a bit confused because I was really stressed out.
I am not pregnant, but we would like to have a family soon. We are engaged and marry in december.
I was not talking about the medical doctor, but the dotor degree in classics/history.

But you are right, I wonder how I can finance this without having done my studies for nothing (of course, the wisdom is not lost if I or my fiancé don´t work in this field, but it makes me sad. He was just sad when he saw that there are students and doctors here who have worse grades, but a good financial security and time to network because they don´t need to work and get the better jobs because of this.)

Your thought of starting something own is on my mind for a long time. I learned tailoring on my own, but stopped working because most people won´t pay just half of a fair price for this, some customers didn´t payed and I lost the money. So, I changed to a company for a safer income. But, I liked and still like this work.
I have a loan for some months I need to make my final exams, and I won´t need the full money because I studied very fast. Probably could take the full money and start something with it, but until now, I don´t know what would work. I worked in the trading field for some years and would like to connect this with my knowledge of antiques, but I fear the marked is supersaturated when you don´t trade with really precious things I couldn´t afford to store.

 

[alice24]

Well, one of my jobs is at the department of ancient history, and the conditions there are really good - respectful, kind, fruitful for both sides. Sadly, this is the department with the lowest rate of upcoming new jobs as they mainly get zero to veeery low finacial support of the state and the economy.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Here in the US, jobs in academia are moving from secure full time professionals to part time adjuncts. The uni’s and colleges hire more administrative people, again, part time.

Around here a degree in History or Antiquities or Art History is pretty much going to assure that the person has to have two or three jobs to make ends meet. From your post it sounds as if your country is moving in the same direction.

 

[alice24]

Yes, there are better conditions when it comes to care for pregnant women or parents in general who are in ordinary working conditions - but there are circumstances beside this, believe it or not, where you can´t use this benefits. There are those aprox. 180 euro per month per child, but this is a small base, don´t you think? We pay up to 500 euro per month for chambers of 15 qm. Guess what you can save under this conditions. For example, if you don´t get work in one job with enough hours per week for a ordinary health care, then you have the duty to get a health police on your own, which can go up to aprox. 300 USD per month. For many supports you need to be open for any work, which means, they force you to stop your doctor project, after years of work, for being “availible on the market” only to have access to health care.
Yes, you won´t suffer hunger here, in most cases. But sorry, it is not spoiled to be sad because you worked for years as best as you can to end on state support only because you want a family. And no, it is not spoiled that I don´t want my fiancé give up his full education for me. I see he is happy in his studies, and I love to see him happy because I love him.
Your main point is “get over it, don´t cry, spoiled princess, just work as other people do” . Well, I´ve done this since I am a teenager, and now I lost a job bacause I was sick with my kidneys, caused by stress. Without work, I have fear, so I have more stress. Beside other health reasons, the stress based sickness makes me infertile, not as slow as I wished, so I need to act soon. I don´t think that I don´t have the right to feel sad about all this.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Yeahhhhhh no.

Germany has better health, pregnancy and family protections than most places in the world.

Americans get ZERO dollars per month when they have kids. If you’re a SAHP/WFHP and don’t use daycare you don’t even get most of the tax benefits.

300 a month for healthcare? WHAT A LARK!!! I’d love that. With an employee-sponsored plan my family pays 700 a month and we need to pay for the first $2,000 of care per person and 20% after that. In reality, it means we spend about $12,000 annually. If we had to buy it ourselves it would be about $2400 a month minimum plus the deductibles, copays, etc. And all those doctor restrictions are still applicable here, too.

You really do sound whiny to Americans who look at your “problems” and wonder what in the heck you are talking about.

You choose a field that is dying and then are mad you have to fall back on social services. Again, this “happy in his field” is utter and absolute garbage. You want a family you pick a career that SUPPORTS a family. My husband likes building web pages but that doesn’t pay the bills, so he has a much more sophisticated and desirable degree and field of work. It’s called being an adult. You seem to covet a very few, well connected, dying academic positions and think that those should become available to you because you work hard.

But when you choose an archaic and limited field your chances of getting a job are slim. You do not seem emotionally prepared for that eventuality. Many people these days have worked since they were young teens. That is not special or rare…maybe in Germany, but not for much of the world.

This whole “well this is what he loves and I want him to be happy” do you want his happiness in a field where (you and) he will always have to hold many jobs to make ends meet, making it hard to have a family, or do you want to stop and realize what the reality of your education is and find actual, real, full-time jobs that can support a family?

And when it comes to infertility–you don’t even know (or shouldn’t if you have a fiancee and not husband) yet what your body may do. You’re guessing—and blaming stress.

Maybe what you face is hard in Germany, but it’s problems that Americans simply cannot understand and have a hard time swallowing.

Honestly, you would be best off seeing a career advisor and a psycologist.