Science and Morality

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Pascal’s wager might make a lot more sense to me in that situation, of course I’ll probably start fearing Allah as well.

But isn’t Allah just another name for the God of Abraham? You’re covered either way? 👍
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Pascal’s wager might make a lot more sense to me in that situation, of course I’ll probably start fearing Allah as well.

But isn’t Allah just another name for the God of Abraham? You’re covered either way? 👍
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Allah is a single individual who (according to the Koran) will condemn you to hell for believing that Jesus was divine. The Christian god is a triune god (single god with three individuals) which will condemn you to hell for not believing that Jesus was divine.
 
tonyrey said:
Your preoccupation with hell reveals that you are a staunch believer in goodness and justice but if God doesn’t exist there is no source of goodness and justice. If we are accidental freaks of nature we exist in a universe totally devoid of moral values. They must exist solely in human minds and bear no relation to harsh reality. So why are you so concerned? Is your state of being horribly disturbed simply an emotional reaction which has no significance?
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I am disturbed by the fact that the concept of eternal damnation terrifies so many of us. I am disturbed by the fact that it may someday have the same effect upon me, even though I know it does not exist.

Of the morality issues, you and I simply disagree. To me morality only makes sense if it came from us (that’s even if there is a god), to you just the opposite. I guess it does not matter why we think we behave with kindness and compassion and honor, just so long as we do. If belief in god motivates you to do so, then your beliefs have served a valuable function (again IMO true regardless as to whether there is a god or not).
 
severntofall said:
Allah is a single individual who (according to the Koran) will condemn you to hell for believing that Jesus was divine. The Christian god is a triune god (single god with three individuals) which will condemn you to hell for not believing that Jesus was divine.
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Please don’t distort the facts for the sake of antithesis.🙂
I cannot vouch for Islam but I know the Church does not teach that disbelief leads inexorably to hell.
 
severntofall said:
Allah is a single individual who (according to the Koran) will condemn you to hell for believing that Jesus was divine. The Christian god is a triune god (single god with three individuals) which will condemn you to hell for not believing that Jesus was divine.
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Neither of those is necessarily true, although most religious people on each side would probably agree with you. Don’t forget that Islam sees Jesus as a very important prophet though.
 
Oreoracle said:
Let’s put it this way: If ethics are objective, as I believe you’ve claimed, can you use your computer to calculate that killing innocents is wrong? No, because it has no emotion. A being with knowledge and calculating skill superior to your own, such as a computer, cannot conceive of morality because a “should” is not present in its view of reality.
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Some of my previous answers regarding those thoughts.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5226775&postcount=38
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5234565&postcount=61
 
tonyrey said:
severntofall;5257509:
In one sense it is good that the concept of eternal damnation terrifies so many of us. It highlights the reality of diabolical evil for which there is so much evidence even in this world. But it should be counterbalanced by the concept of eternal happiness which highlights the reality of unselfish love for which there is also so much evidence. Life is more extreme than many people realize. To restrict good and evil to human **beliefs **
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distorts one’s attitude to reality and leads to anomie and apathy.

Diabolical evil huh? A nice video documentary on the history of the devil for you:
wimp.com/thedevil/
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tonyrey said:
Please don’t distort the facts for the sake of antithesis.🙂
I cannot vouch for Islam but I know the Church does not teach that disbelief leads inexorably to hell.
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The bible makes it very very clear that salvation can only be achieved via faith, belief in the divinity of Jesus is a part of that faith. Those who do not recieve salvation suffer the pains of hell.
 
tonyrey said:
Precisely!👍 But you are assuming that we shall continue to do so for the rest of our lives even if we believe it all comes to nothing in the end… There is always the ultimate temptation: nihilism…
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You argument seems to be that religion is valuable whether it’s true or not.
 
severntofall said:
You argument seems to be that religion is valuable whether it’s true or not.
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Napoleon (I think it was) said if God didn’t exist we would have to invent him! Of course I believe religion is valuable because it is true. It’s very difficult for me to put myself in the position of an atheist. I think it would be valuable anyway but then I ask myself whether I am unconsciously influenced by my beliefs. You’re in a better position to judge. 🙂
 
severntofall said:
The bible makes it very very clear that salvation can only be achieved via faith, belief in the divinity of Jesus is a part of that faith. Those who do not receive salvation suffer the pains of hell.
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The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways. The Church used to teach there was no salvation outside the Church but it recognizes that our conscience that is our ultimate authority. A person cannot be condemned for ignorance, only persistent malice.
 
tonyrey said:
liquidpele;5259279:
Amongst other atrocities in the history of the human race how do you explain the Nazis’ treatment of the Jews? Pathological? That’s too easy a way out…
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I don’t follow… are you suggesting humans are incapable of such cruelty without a mythical boogyman? If so, perhaps you should investigate this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

The devil, to me, is sidestepping our responsibility by blaming something else for the evils of man.
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tonyrey said:
The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways. The Church used to teach there was no salvation outside the Church but it recognizes that our conscience that is our ultimate authority. A person cannot be condemned for ignorance, only persistent malice.
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If you are claiming that Paul did not repeatedly make this claim (it’s undeniable) then you are being disingenuous. The Catholic Church still holds that acceptance of the divinity of Jesus is necessary for salvation (except Jews are now exempt as are the unaware as you pointed out). There is just one alternative to salvation…right?
 
*Satan? Now that’s an easy way out. *

No, it isn’t. As Adam and Eve discovered.
 
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