Science and Morality

  • Thread starter Thread starter Charlemagne_II
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
We can however already determine which chemicals are released in the brain when feelings of love occur and morality is being studied in terms of our instincts for survival as individuals and as a group.
Do you really believe love is just the result of chemicals being released in the brain?
One thing I do know, is if your faith is based currently on what science does not know, then you are falling into the trap of the “god of the gaps”.
My faith is based on the reality of personality, creativity, truth, goodness, justice, purpose, the right to life, the principles of liberty, equality, fraternity, freedom, beauty and love - which I do not attribute to chemicals being released in the brain. If that is falling into the trap of the “god of the gaps” give me the gaps any time!
However, fortunately for the atheist since their behaviour is not dependent on an unchanging(and possibly immoral) religious code, they are more capable of change when their bad behaviour becomes obvious.
The Catholic Church teaches that our conscience is the ultimate authority. Believe it or not, we are expected to make our own moral decisions.
God, is simply not an excuse you can use to justify your hate, your bad behaviour or your prejudice.
I agree with you entirely. God who is Love confirms my conviction that love is a reality rather than the result of chemicals being released in the brain…
I don’t actually think the problem is religion or a lack there-of. It is a problem with ideological fanaticism.
I agree with you entirely
Science can at the very least show us the nature of things.
The nature of all things?
Not understanding your question.
Can love shows us the nature of truth, goodness, freedom and love… of existence and purpose?
Eventually, a person has to make a choice between what they’ve been “taught” is moral and what they are being shown through science as factual.
I have never had to make such a choice and I have never known any Catholic who has.
Well then you need to get out more I think.
It would be more enlightening if you give us an example of such a choice.
Yes, science can very well help humanity find its way to a more moral and ethical state.
What can science teach you about a person’s right to life?

BTW When I politely ask you to be more precise you accuse me of being rude. Your assertion “Well then you need to get out more” insinuates that I’m not in touch with reality! I leave others to decide which is objectionable…

On the other hand I admire your honesty with regard to mathematical truths. 🙂
 
Yeah, I’ll agree with this 🙂
But the isue is not about whether numbers exist. I think we all agree that they do (accept maybe for Charlemage). The question is about whether numbers existed before there were human beings to think about them. To me it is like believing that human rights existed before humans.
 
Harris is a neurologist so he must know something about science. Can you be any more specific about what is wring with his vioews on a science of morality?
He assumes that he can know the scientific view of someone based on their party affiliation. He’s not rational, or he’s making a big joke of the subject. So why should anyone care about his careless remarks?
 
The question is about whether numbers existed before there were human beings to think about them. To me it is like believing that human rights existed before humans.
Human rights presupposes the existence of human beings. Numbers do not. You are confusing a numeral with a number. 2 is a numeral, i.e. a symbol for a quantity which existed, exists and will exist independently of human beings. Water has two hydrogen atoms and **one **oxygen atom regardless of what we think. That ratio is eternal and immutable. Nothing will ever change the fact that this planet has an equator or that the universe - as we know it - began with a Big Bang rather than two Big Bangs!
 
He assumes that he can know the scientific view of someone based on their party affiliation. He’s not rational, or he’s making a big joke of the subject. So why should anyone care about his careless remarks?
Actually he is responding to the conclusions of Haidt in his article for Edge called WHAT MAKES PEOPLE VOTE REPUBLICAN? and using the terms liberal and conservative the way that Haidt uses them for the sake of argument. While Harris promotes a view of morality concerned with human well-being, Haidt’s position is that morality is concerned with “binding groups together.” Haidt writes, “…the second rule of moral psychology is that morality is not just about how we treat each other (as most liberals think); it is also about binding groups together, supporting essential institutions, and living in a sanctified and noble way. When Republicans say that Democrats “just don’t get it,” this is the “it” to which they refer.”

I wouldn’t make too much of the politics of the essay. The issue I was hoping you’d focus on is whether science can study morals. Harris response is published on Edge.org under the title, “Brain Science and Human Values,” where he makes the same case for a science of morals as he does in the Beyond Belief conference that I linked to previously. Try again to understand his argument without concerning yourself with politics. I’ve edited out the less relevent parts to our discussion:

Harris writes,
"…Belief encompasses two domains that have been traditionally divided in our discourse. We believe propositions about facts, and these acts of cognition subsume almost every effort we make to get at the truth—in science, history, journalism, etc. But we also form beliefs about values: judgments about morality, meaning, personal goals, and life’s larger purpose. While they differ in certain respects, these types of belief share some important features.

Both types of belief make tacit claims about normativity: claims not merely about how we human beings think and behave, but about how we should think and behave. Factual beliefs like “water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen” and ethical beliefs like “cruelty is wrong” are not expressions of mere preference. To really believe a proposition (whether about facts or values) is also to believe that one has accepted it for legitimate reasons. It is, therefore, to believe that one is in compliance with a variety of norms (i.e., that one is sane, rational, not lying to oneself, not overly biased, etc.) When we really believe that something is factually true or morally good, we also believe that another person, similarly placed, should share our conviction.

Despite the remonstrations of people like Jonathan Haidt and Richard Shweder, science has long been in the values business. Scientific validity is not the result of scientists abstaining from making value judgments; it is the result of scientists making their best effort to value principles of reasoning that reliably link their beliefs to reality, through valid chains of evidence and argument. The answer to the question, “What should I believe, and why should I believe it?” is generally a scientific one: Believe a proposition because it is well supported by theory and evidence; believe it because it has been experimentally verified; believe it because a generation of smart people have tried their best to falsify it and failed; believe it because it is true (or seems so). This is a norm of cognition as well as the epistemic core of any scientific mission statement.

But what about meaning and morality? Here we appear to move from questions of truth—which have long been in the domain of science if they are to be found anywhere—to questions of goodness. How should we live? Is it wrong to lie? If so, why and in what sense? Which personal habits, uses of attention, modes of discourse, social institutions, economic systems, governments, etc. are most conducive to human well-being?


Much of humanity is clearly wrong about morality—just as much of humanity is wrong about physics, biology, history, and everything else worth understanding. If, as I believe, morality is a system of thinking about (and maximizing) the well being of conscious creatures like ourselves, many people’s moral concerns are frankly immoral.

Does forcing women and girls to wear burqas make a positive contribution to human well-being? Does it make happier boys and girls? More compassionate men? More confident and contented women? Does it make for better relationships between men and women, between boys and their mothers, or between girls and their fathers? I would bet my life that the answer to each of these questions is “no.” So, I think, would many scientists. And yet, most scientists have been trained to think that such judgments are mere expressions of cultural bias. Very few of us seem willing to admit that simple, moral truths increasingly fall within the purview of our scientific worldview. I am confident that this period of reticence will soon come to an end.

Unless human well-being is perfectly random, or equally compatible with any events in the world or state of the brain, there will be scientific truths to be known about it. These truths will, inevitably, force us to draw clear distinctions between ways of thinking and living, judging some to better or worse, more or less true to the facts, and more or less moral.

If there are objective truths about human well-being—if kindness, for instance, is generally more conducive to happiness than cruelty is—then there seems little doubt that science will one day be able to make strong and precise claims about which of our behaviors and uses of attention are morally good, which are neutral, and which are bad."
 
Human rights presupposes the existence of human beings. Numbers do not. You are confusing a numeral with a number. 2 is a numeral, i.e. a symbol for a quantity which existed, exists and will exist independently of human beings. Water has two hydrogen atoms and **one **oxygen atom regardless of what we think. That ratio is eternal and immutable. Nothing will ever change the fact that this planet has an equator or that the universe - as we know it - began with a Big Bang rather than two Big Bangs!
The hydrogen atoms exist and the oxygen atom exists, which is not the same as counting them. Numbers are words that name counts in counting. Numbers are completely contained within language.
 
“Brain Science and Human Values,”

Much of humanity is clearly wrong about morality—just as much of humanity is wrong about physics, biology, history, and everything else worth understanding. If, as I believe, morality is a system of thinking about (and maximizing) the well being of conscious creatures like ourselves, many people’s moral concerns are frankly immoral.
He is just like everyone else he is not well informed. He ideas are also confused. In science facts are simply perceived, not believed. Propositions about facts come after the observation of the facts, not during or before.

He said that questions about truth are scientific questions, but those are philosophical questions. Science only assumes that its demonstrations and observations are true, it does spend alot of time struggling with epistemological arguments. Even though as a religion, science only has one commandment which would be thou shalt not bear false witness.

Anyway I don’t see how the physical measurements which science concerns itself with can become a guiding force in morality.
 
Leela

In short, if there are moral truths to be known, then we can try to know them just as we inquire about other aspects of life. We don’t yet have a scientific paradigm for doing so, but I can’t see why such a paradigm is impossible.

This seems to be the bottom line of your claim. There is reason to worry about science assuming itself capable of knowing (and therefore likely controlling) all aspects of the human condition. Orwell talked about this in his novel 1984. The State will become Big Brother, and will use science and technology to watch everyone, and will severely discipline anyone who departs from the party line (and this may, we can assume, have nothing to do with “Love one another”).

In other words, the complaint that atheistic scientists have often lodged against the Inquisition will be visited upon the scientific community itself sooner or later if it dares to reduce humanity to a behavioral formula that it can qualitatively and quantitatively control according to the desire of Big Brother … the secular and atheistic State toward which it has been argued by some that modern civilization is heading.

If that happens, the tyranny of science over Man will be far more universal and dreadful than any tyranny the Church could ever exercise. In that case, the Church, with one of its sublime teachings, the doctrine of free will, may become the rallying point for a revolution against science the likes of which the world has never seen. Have we not already seen that in Poland where the Church effectively blocked the continuing reign of scientific and atheistic materialism imposed by the old Soviet Union?
 
The hydrogen atoms exist and the oxygen atom exists, which is not the same as counting them. Numbers are words that name counts in counting. Numbers are completely contained within language.
Counting implies that there are things to be counted. Are you saying we imagine there are two atoms? That there is no real difference between one and two? You might as well say all language is a false description of reality…
 
Leela

In short, if there are moral truths to be known, then we can try to know them just as we inquire about other aspects of life. We don’t yet have a scientific paradigm for doing so, but I can’t see why such a paradigm is impossible.

This seems to be the bottom line of your claim. There is reason to worry about science assuming itself capable of knowing (and therefore likely controlling) all aspects of the human condition. Orwell talked about this in his novel 1984. The State will become Big Brother, and will use science and technology to watch everyone, and will severely discipline anyone who departs from the party line (and this may, we can assume, have nothing to do with “Love one another”).

In other words, the complaint that atheistic scientists have often lodged against the Inquisition will be visited upon the scientific community itself sooner or later if it dares to reduce humanity to a behavioral formula that it can qualitatively and quantitatively control according to the desire of Big Brother … the secular and atheistic State toward which it has been argued by some that modern civilization is heading.

If that happens, the tyranny of science over Man will be far more universal and dreadful than any tyranny the Church could ever exercise. In that case, the Church, with one of its sublime teachings, the doctrine of free will, may become the rallying point for a revolution against science the likes of which the world has never seen. Have we not already seen that in Poland where the Church effectively blocked the continuing reign of scientific and atheistic materialism imposed by the old Soviet Union?
I don’t know what to say about the “tyranny of science over man.” It sounds to me like the tryranny of literary criticism over man or the tyranny of historical analysis over man. It sounds absurd to me that science leads to communism or other authoritarianism. I don’t see how you make that leap. Science has continually undermined the authoritarianism of the Church. It is anti-authoritarian.

Science is merely the collection of things that we have good reason to believe. I don’t think it is a stretch to look for good reason to believe that cruelty is wrong or that forcing woman to wear burqas is not conducive to human flourishing. Such things can be studied systematically like anything else if we expand our view of science to include the study of morals.
 
Counting implies that there are things to be counted. Are you saying we imagine there are two atoms? That there is no real difference between one and two? You might as well say all language is a false description of reality…
No one would disagree that things existed before people. The question is whether human concepts like “number” existed before humans. If you believe in God, then you can imagine such a conceot existing in the mind of God, but if like me you do not believe in God, then there was no where for such a concept to reside before people came along.
 
No one would disagree that things existed before people. The question is whether human concepts like “number” existed before humans. If you believe in God, then you can imagine such a conceot existing in the mind of God, but if like me you do not believe in God, then there was no where for such a concept to reside before people came along.
Well, that just depends on how you want to define things would it not? If you see a number as a representation of reality, then that reality existed with or without us (at least, unless you want to question reality but that’s another argument) but the representation itself is only a part of us.
 
Leela

I don’t know what to say about the “tyranny of science over man.” It sounds to me like the tryranny of literary criticism over man or the tyranny of historical analysis over man. It sounds absurd to me that science leads to communism or other authoritarianism. I don’t see how you make that leap. Science has continually undermined the authoritarianism of the Church. It is anti-authoritarian.

This should correct your error.

isreligion.org/pdf/froese_russia.pdf

I could easily supply several more articles on this theme if you are interested.
 
Leela

I don’t know what to say about the “tyranny of science over man.” It sounds to me like the tryranny of literary criticism over man or the tyranny of historical analysis over man. It sounds absurd to me that science leads to communism or other authoritarianism. I don’t see how you make that leap. Science has continually undermined the authoritarianism of the Church. It is anti-authoritarian.

This should correct your error.

isreligion.org/pdf/froese_russia.pdf

I could easily supply several more articles on this theme if you are interested.
No matter how many articles about how bad communism is you send me, you still won’t have a case concerning science as tyranny. Science is not a form a government. It is a catch-all term for our best attempts to distinguish what we wish were true from what we have good reason to believe.
 
Leela

No one would disagree that things existed before people. The question is whether human concepts like “number” existed before humans. If you believe in God, then you can imagine such a conceot existing in the mind of God, but if like me you do not believe in God, then there was no where for such a concept to reside before people came along.

The thing you are overlooking is the fact, often observed by mathematicians and other scientists, that the universe lends itself to mathematical equations, whereby the laws of the universe can be understood. One cannot invent equations to which reality corresponds, but one can discover them, test them, and see if reality welcomes them. One can talk about the age of the universe only if the universe has an age … a period of time in which it has existed that can be measured according to years … 10-15 billion more or less.

One can talk about the accelerated rate at which the universe is expanding only if it is expanding at an accelerated rate, and the acceleration can be measured. God has designed us in such a way as to understand more about the foundations of creation than we have ever known before, thanks to science. But without mathematics that understanding would be truly pathetic and primitive.

Mathematics is at the foundation of everything, including music and poetry, painting and sculpture. Even the Bible was created one book at a time, as the universe was created one day at a time until the seven ages of creation were complete. You will find in genetics a plethora of mathematics. This was known right from the start by Gregor Mendel. The computer on which you are writing is largely a mathematical construct. Christian theology is loaded with significant numbers, including 1,3,4,7,12,40, etc. But these numbers would be largely insignificant if they did not correspond to something that has happened in the physical and spiritual world, things that were not so much created as discovered to be immanent in the universe at the time of creation and have over time emerged triumphant in the human mind.

Even with morality we can be assured that numbers are significant. There are ten commandments … or there are two that encapsulate the ten, if we prefer. These moral laws were not invented. They were immanent in us at the time of our creation, when only one commandment required that we trust God and obey Him for our own happiness. Even that one commandment we could not keep, the fruit being so ripe and tempting.

Numbers serve not only to identify the varieties of creation, but also the laws that underpin each member of that variety. Light travels at a certain velocity. Gravitation pulls with a certain measurable strength. Tribes of men add other tribes to increase their strength, or divide among themselves to their own destruction. These are not invented facts, but realities that mathematics will allow us to discover to our benfit or to our destruction. Science has been most helpful along the way. The question is whether science, full of its own success, will exceed (again, a mathematical construct) its authority by usurping to itself roles it was never intended to play in the great order of things. The notion that the Church could once exceed its authority, but that science never will, not even in the realm of morals, is silly on the face of it.
 
Well, that just depends on how you want to define things would it not? If you see a number as a representation of reality, then that reality existed with or without us (at least, unless you want to question reality but that’s another argument) but the representation itself is only a part of us.
I think it’s a very good idea to think of reality as existing before ideas and a very bad idea to think of ideas as existing before their were people to have them.
 
Leela

*No matter how many articles about how bad communism is you send me, you still won’t have a case concerning science as tyranny. *

I can see you are not moved. I just want to point out that atheism, science, and communism have been very compatible bedfellows. I am not implying that science is always tyrannical, just as the Church was not always tyrannical. What I am arguing is a fact of history that may well repeat itself … namely, that science can be a tool for tyranny, and that scientists are no more moral than the rest of mankind, and with a newfound hegemony, could be a great deal less.

Certainly Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the chronic fear of ending mankind in one fell swoop continue to haunt us, thanks to nuclear physics.

“Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
 
The thing you are overlooking is the fact, often observed by mathematicians and other scientists, that the universe lends itself to mathematical equations, whereby the laws of the universe can be understood. One cannot invent equations to which reality corresponds, but one can discover them, test them, and see if reality welcomes them.
[/quotes]

Newton came up with some equations that do a great job of predicting experience and would have thought of his equations as representations like you do, but his equations are also known to be wrong as representations of the universe. Einstein’s make even better predictions, but Einstein couldn’t imagine the possibility of comparing reality to a set of equations and saw his equations as “free creations of the human mind.” The testing you are talking about is concerned with making useful predictions not testing to see if our equations are somehow written into the fabric of the cosmos.
Charlemagne II;5331743:
The question is whether science, full of its own success, will exceed (again, a mathematical construct) its authority by usurping to itself roles it was never intended to play in the great order of things. The notion that the Church could once exceed its authority, but that science never will, not even in the realm of morals, is silly on the face of it.
Science is philosophically opposed to arguments from authority. It could never exceed its authority because it doesn’t claim any such authority. Its claims are either born out in lived experience or not. For science, the ultimate authority is the facts. It’s attempts to explain the facts are only as good as the predictions they make.
 
Newton came up with some equations that do a great job of predicting experience and would have thought of his equations as representations like you do, but his equations are also known to be wrong as representations of the universe.

Newton’s laws were not wrong. They were incomplete.

The testing you are talking about is concerned with making useful predictions not testing to see if our equations are somehow written into the fabric of the cosmos.

The eqations were written into the fabric of the universe or they would not be observable so much as made up and useless.

Science is philosophically opposed to arguments from authority. It could never exceed its authority because it doesn’t claim any such authority.

This would be true if you are speaking only of science as an abstract entity. But you forget that scientists are people, no better and no worse than any other people, capable of as much good or evil as any other people. If you do not understand this, you do not understand human nature.

Don’t forget those physicians willing to exterminate “useless eaters” under Hitler. Don’t forget the savagery of nuclear bombs. Don’t forget the idiocy of B.F. Skinner’s behavioral psychology as a tool for controlling people.

Have you made an idol of science before which you bow down and worship? Then you are religious after all!!! :bowdown: SCIENCE! :highprayer:
 
Another point to consider.

In Einstein’s theory of relativity he supplied a mathematical constant to account for the eternity and infinity of the universe (he had always assumed the universe was uncreated). By doing this Einstein’s mathematical fudge cut him off from recognizing that with a more correct mathematical procedure, later supplied by George LeMaitre (a Catholic priest, by the way) the Big Bang was made theoretically possible, and later made inevitable as Hubble’s telescope indicated.

What LeMaitre showed was that mathematics correctly applied ties itself not only to the fabric of the universe, but to its history as well, since time cannot be divided from space, matter, and energy.

“The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility.” Albert Einstein
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top