Science and morality

[JuanFlorencio]

Is it possible to be morally stupid and at the same time have a remarkable intelligence for mathematics or physics?

Those who participated in the Manhattan project were undoubtedly very talented. They knew the power they would be releasing with the bombs. They knew how destructive those bombs would be. Those guys who were able to see through their mathematical models, written on their blackboards and notebooks, a tremendous reality that goes unnoticed for ordinary people; were they unable to realize that a lot of human beings could be killed with those weapons? Were they unable to realize that those weapons could be used to annihilate entire populations?

Let’s suppose they were. If so, they should be taken as an evidence that one can be remarkably intelligent for science and technology and at the same time be morally imbecile.

Is it possible to be a coward and at the same time have a remarkable intelligence for mathematics or physics?

I tend to think that those scientists who participated in the Manhattan project were so smart that they could foresee the terrible and immoral consequences of their work. But, still, they went on…

One possibility is that those scientists lacked the courage to say “No!”. If it was the case, this should be taken as an evidence that one can be remarkably intelligent for science and technology and at the same time be a coward.

Another possibility is that, having foreseeing the consequences of their acts, they wanted to see them. They knew they were immoral, and they wanted to be immoral.

But…, is it immoral to be a coward or morally stupid?

 

[mikekle]

Is it possible to be morally stupid and at the same time have a remarkable intelligence for mathematics or physics?

Those who participated in the Manhattan project were undoubtedly very talented. They knew the power they would be releasing with the bombs. They knew how destructive those bombs would be. Those guys who were able to see through their mathematical models, written on their blackboards and notebooks, a tremendous reality that goes unnoticed for ordinary people; were they unable to realize that a lot of human beings could be killed with those weapons? Were they unable to realize that those weapons could be used to annihilate entire populations?

Let’s suppose they were. If so, they should be taken as an evidence that one can be remarkably intelligent for science and technology and at the same time be morally imbecile.

Is it possible to be a coward and at the same time have a remarkable intelligence for mathematics or physics?

I tend to think that those scientists who participated in the Manhattan project were so smart that they could foresee the terrible and immoral consequences of their work. But, still, they went on…

One possibility is that those scientists lacked the courage to say “No!”. If it was the case, this should be taken as an evidence that one can be remarkably intelligent for science and technology and at the same time be a coward.

Another possibility is that, having foreseeing the consequences of their acts, they wanted to see them. They knew they were immoral, and they wanted to be immoral.

But…, is it immoral to be a coward or morally stupid?

Sure, they knew what they were creating, they KNEW its destructive potential…yet they continued on. Scientists are more concerned with whether they can do something versus whether they should, or they do things just to see the results.

We can see this all thru history and then how science was also wrong about many things too over the years, what was science fact in 1700 is most certainly not the same in 2016, and the same will ring true in 3016, 4016, 20016, etc

CERN is an example, they built something just to see what they can do, they keep increasing power to see the results, some are unexpected. They are messing with things they do not fully understand and in the future, Im sure history will record some of our ‘modern’ errors in judgement regarding science, they will wonder how could people back in 2016 be so stupid to think and do such things.

 

[inocente]

You are the one who has judged the scientific community to be right and patriotic in choosing to create weapons of incredible mass destruction capable of wiping out human civilization. This lack of foresight by Einstein, Oppenheimer and others you cannot excuse on the basis of patriotic sentiment. Scientists ought to be patriotic to the human race. They should not be dedicated to its destruction.

I’m really appalled that you are defending scientists at the worst and most shameful moment in their history. It seems that so far as you are concerned scientists can do no wrong, because if there ever was a moment when they could, it was certainly the whole-hearted invention of massively annihilating nuclear weapons.

You’re the one romanticizing scientists, to me they are like all other human beings, and the same morality applies to them as to everyone else.

But you say it is moral for American soldiers, sailors, airmen and munition workers to do their government’s bidding to defend the country in wartime, but immoral for American scientists to do the exact same thing.

That’s just one of the many moral inconsistencies in your position, some of which I’ve pointed out, none of which you’ve answered. Your government paid a lot of money and had over a hundred thousand people develop the Bomb as a deterrent to protect America from the Nazis. Then, after Germany had surrendered, your government changed it from a deterrent and used it against Japan. Can’t see there’s much else to be said.

Although it might be relevant to point out that America spends more on its military each year than all the following counties combined: China, Russia, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland, Saudi Arabia, India, Brazil, Australia, Iraq and Israel.

Human beings are not perfect, no matter how much you romanticize.

 

[inocente]

And it was with the express intention of using them in Japan…

Nope. The US government developed the Bomb as a deterrent to protect America from the Nazis, since it was known that they were working on a nuclear weapon. The British tried several times to destroy the heavy water plant in Vemork, Norway to impede Nazi efforts, and sent a number of people to America to work on the Manhattan project.

Then, after Germany had surrendered, the US government with British government approval decided to use the Bomb against Japan.

Unless all the history books are wrong, the Allied governments decided it was necessary, and the scientists saw it as their duty to do the bidding of the governments.

The Nazis made the Jews a scapegoat. It would be tragic to deny history and make scapegoats of others.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

You’re the one romanticizing scientists, to me they are like all other human beings, and the same morality applies to them as to everyone else.

Exactly.

They are as capable of powerfully stupid malice as anyone else.

 

[inocente]

Exactly.

They are as capable of powerfully stupid malice as anyone else.

And they’re as capable of doing their duty to their government as anyone else.

Last week the Pope said of Donald Trump that Christians don’t build walls, Christians build bridges.

While Donald Trump, Adolf Hitler and Pontius Pilot wash their hands and make scapegoats of Jews, Mexicans, Muslims, Blacks, women, Protestants, scientists, gays or whoever is convenient, the Christian ought at least make an effort to walk a mile in another’s shoes, at least try to remember only God can judge ya, at least try not to be part of blame culture.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

While Donald Trump, Adolf Hitler and Pontius Pilot wash their hands and make scapegoats of Jews, Mexicans, Muslims, Blacks, women, Protestants, scientists, gays or whoever is convenient, the Christian ought at least make an effort to walk a mile in another’s shoes, at least try to remember only God can judge ya, at least try not to be part of blame culture.

Sounds like you are not interested in walking in the shoes of Donald Trump, Adolf Hitler or Pontius Pilot. Sounds like you’re also really up to blaming others. How do you escape being part of the blame culture?

"The separation of state and church must be complemented by the separation of state and science, that most recent, most aggressive, and most dogmatic religious institution. " Paul K. Feyerabend Philosopher of Science

Well, it was certainly at its most aggressive when scientists were well paid by the government to invent the greatest weapons of mass destruction in the history of the world.

Wasn’t it after all the nuclear physicist Robert Oppenheimer who said that nuclear physicists had known sin big time?

Apparently he was not reluctant to judge himself, as we all must if we are to be better than our baser selves.

 

[tonyrey]

Nope. The US government developed the Bomb as a deterrent to protect America from the Nazis, since it was known that they were working on a nuclear weapon. The British tried several times to destroy the heavy water plant in Vemork, Norway to impede Nazi efforts, and sent a number of people to America to work on the Manhattan project.

Then, after Germany had surrendered, the US government with British government approval decided to use the Bomb against Japan.

Unless all the history books are wrong, the Allied governments decided it was necessary, and the scientists saw it as their duty to do the bidding of the governments.

The Nazis made the Jews a scapegoat. It would be tragic to deny history and make scapegoats of others.

The US and UK governments chose to drop atomic bombs on two large cities without giving any warning to the Japanese government or consulting their own electorate. It was not necessary to inflict so much suffering and death on civilians who were the victims of their own government’s policies.

 

[tonyrey]

And they’re as capable of doing their duty to their government as anyone else.

Last week the Pope said of Donald Trump that Christians don’t build walls, Christians build bridges.

While Donald Trump, Adolf Hitler and Pontius Pilot wash their hands and make scapegoats of Jews, Mexicans, Muslims, Blacks, women, Protestants, scientists, gays or whoever is convenient, the Christian ought at least make an effort to walk a mile in another’s shoes, at least try to remember only God can judge ya, at least try not to be part of blame culture.

We have a moral obligation to condemn those who are ignoring the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity regardless of what they claim to believe…

 

[tonyrey]

If it wasn’t for Oppenheimer and Einstein and Feynman and so many others, we’d be calling you Schultz, not Charles. Assuming that your parents managed to live through the rain of German nuclear missiles.

The Allies defeated Germany without nuclear missiles!

 

[LogisticsBranch]

The US and UK governments chose to drop atomic bombs on two large cities without giving any warning to the Japanese government or consulting their own electorate. It was not necessary to inflict so much suffering and death on civilians who were the victims of their own government’s policies.

Easy for you to say Tonyrey but you weren’t there! My father was at Pearl Harbor (1) when the Japanese dropped their bombs and my mother was there too! My mother said the sky instantly turned black. Lots of people died. I still have the news papers from that event since my mother saved them. I feel blessed they were alive otherwise I wouldn’t be here today! But if someone attacks me I promise you that I will not hesitate to take a gun and shoot them if they are on my property!

1. Quote: "Unexpected Attack"
   *The first sign of the Japanese fleet racing towards Pearl Harbor came at 7:00 am the morning of December 7, when two US Army privates on the Hawaiian island of Oahu were just about to turn off a mobile radar station they had manned since 4:00 am. A slight disturbance on the screen gave pause to their actions - a large yet indistinct patch of light, which appeared to the men to come from 50 planes, seemed to be heading towards the island. Confused, one of the privates called the information center across the island, reaching an army lieutenant who assured them the light was simply a fleet of American B-17s. The lieutenant had heard Hawaiian music playing on the radio station earlier that morning, a signal that typically signified an approaching American aircraft to Hawaii, and determined that the blotch on the radar’s oscilloscope screen must be the incoming fleet.

Careful Japanese precautions and comprehensive planning allowed the attack on Pearl Harbor to remain completely shielded from US intelligence. For nearly two weeks prior to the attack, Japanese battleships and destroyers had escorted 43 fighters, 51 dive-bombers, 49 high-level bombers, and 40 torpedo planes from six carriers that floated 200 miles north of Pearl Harbor. The aircraft had traveled in complete radio silence in order to catch the Americans by surprise.

Upon reaching Pearl Harbor, the torpedo bombers skillfully maneuvered themselves into the harbor in groups of twos and threes in a sudden and forceful attack lasting only minutes. In another hour, a second fleet of 167 additional Japanese aircraft bombarded the site.

American residents who watched the attack from afar observed in horror as the screams of men on the sunken battleships rippled through the air, smoke rose from the sea, and the injured and dead swam in bloody waters slick with burning oil. When the effects of the attack subsided, the grim casualties became known: 2,403 American civilians and military personnel had been killed, and 1,178 wounded. Two battleships and 188 aircraft were destroyed.
*
. . .]
atomicheritage.org/history/attack-pearl-harbor-1941

1. **THE WHITE HOUSE

Washington, D.C.

IMMEDIATE RELEASE —August 6, 1945

STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES**

*Sixteen hours ago an American airplane dropped one bomb on Hiroshima, an important Japanese Army base. That bomb had more power than 20,000 tons of T.N.T. It had more than two thousand times the blast power of the British “Grand Slam” which is the largest bomb ever yet used in the history of warfare.

The Japanese began the war from the air at Pearl Harbor. They have been repaid many fold. And the end is not yet. With this bomb we have now added a new and revolutionary increase in destruction to supplement the growing power of our armed forces. In their present form these bombs are now in production and even more powerful forms are in development.

It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe. The force from which the sun draws its power has been loosed against those who brought war to the Far East.
…]
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in the Hawaiian Islands on December 7, 1941 marked the official entrance of the US into WWII. *
atomicheritage.org/key-documents/truman-statement-hiroshima

*"Before 1939, it was the accepted belief of scientists that it was theoretically possible to release atomic energy. But no one knew any practical method of doing it. By 1942, however, we knew that the Germans were working feverishly to find a way to add atomic energy to the other engines of war with which they hoped to enslave the world. But they failed. We may be grateful to Providence that the Germans got the V-1’s and the V-2’s late and in limited quantities and even more grateful that they did not get the atomic bomb at all.

The battle of the laboratories held fateful risks for us as well as the battles of the air, land, and sea, and we have now won the battle of the laboratories as we have won the other battles.

Beginning in 1940, before Pearl Harbor, scientific knowledge useful in war was pooled between the United States and Great Britain, and many priceless helps to our victories have come from that arrangement. Under that general policy the research on the atomic bomb was begun. With American and British scientists working together we entered the race of discovery against the Germans."*
atomicheritage.org/history/attack-pearl-harbor-1941
history.co.uk/study-topics/history-of-ww2/atomic-bomb

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

 

[inocente]

Sounds like you are not interested in walking in the shoes of Donald Trump, Adolf Hitler or Pontius Pilot. Sounds like you’re also really up to blaming others. How do you escape being part of the blame culture?

"The separation of state and church must be complemented by the separation of state and science, that most recent, most aggressive, and most dogmatic religious institution. " Paul K. Feyerabend Philosopher of Science

Well, it was certainly at its most aggressive when scientists were well paid by the government to invent the greatest weapons of mass destruction in the history of the world.

Wasn’t it after all the nuclear physicist Robert Oppenheimer who said that nuclear physicists had known sin big time?

Apparently he was not reluctant to judge himself, as we all must if we are to be better than our baser selves.

Sure, every moral combatant reflects on what his duty required of him in war, and has nightmares, “their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them”. War is bad, there are no moral upsides to killing others to protect your country.

But apparently securing the homeland has led to an individualistic society where duty is passé and anyone on an internet forum is more qualified than God to judge others.

 

[inocente]

The US and UK governments chose to drop atomic bombs on two large cities without giving any warning to the Japanese government or consulting their own electorate. It was not necessary to inflict so much suffering and death on civilians who were the victims of their own government’s policies.

Agreed, but you said the Bomb was developed with “the express intention” of use against Japan and it wasn’t, it was developed as a deterrent to the Nazi Uranprojekt.

Richard Fenyman, for instance, later said “if the scientists in Germany could have developed this thing, then we would be helpless, and I think it would be the end of the civilization at that time. …] So the main reason why I did work on it at the time was because I was afraid that the Germans would do it first, and I felt a responsibility to society to develop this thing to maintain our position in the war.”

It was only after the Bomb was developed and the Nazis defeated that the US and UK governments decided to use it against Japan, which was defenseless against such a weapon.

 

[tonyrey]

Easy for you to say Tonyrey but you weren’t there! My father was at Pearl Harbor (1) when the Japanese dropped their bombs and my mother was there too! My mother said the sky instantly turned black. Lots of people died. I still have the news papers from that event since my mother saved them. I feel blessed they were alive otherwise I wouldn’t be here today! But if someone attacks me I promise you that I will not hesitate to take a gun and shoot them if they are on my property!

1. Quote: "Unexpected Attack"
   *The first sign of the Japanese fleet racing towards Pearl Harbor came at 7:00 am the morning of December 7, when two US Army privates on the Hawaiian island of Oahu were just about to turn off a mobile radar station they had manned since 4:00 am. A slight disturbance on the screen gave pause to their actions - a large yet indistinct patch of light, which appeared to the men to come from 50 planes, seemed to be heading towards the island. Confused, one of the privates called the information center across the island, reaching an army lieutenant who assured them the light was simply a fleet of American B-17s. The lieutenant had heard Hawaiian music playing on the radio station earlier that morning, a signal that typically signified an approaching American aircraft to Hawaii, and determined that the blotch on the radar’s oscilloscope screen must be the incoming fleet.

Careful Japanese precautions and comprehensive planning allowed the attack on Pearl Harbor to remain completely shielded from US intelligence. For nearly two weeks prior to the attack, Japanese battleships and destroyers had escorted 43 fighters, 51 dive-bombers, 49 high-level bombers, and 40 torpedo planes from six carriers that floated 200 miles north of Pearl Harbor. The aircraft had traveled in complete radio silence in order to catch the Americans by surprise.

Upon reaching Pearl Harbor, the torpedo bombers skillfully maneuvered themselves into the harbor in groups of twos and threes in a sudden and forceful attack lasting only minutes. In another hour, a second fleet of 167 additional Japanese aircraft bombarded the site.

American residents who watched the attack from afar observed in horror as the screams of men on the sunken battleships rippled through the air, smoke rose from the sea, and the injured and dead swam in bloody waters slick with burning oil. When the effects of the attack subsided, the grim casualties became known: 2,403 American civilians and military personnel had been killed, and 1,178 wounded. Two battleships and 188 aircraft were destroyed.
*
. . .]
atomicheritage.org/history/attack-pearl-harbor-1941

1. **THE WHITE HOUSE

Washington, D.C.

IMMEDIATE RELEASE —August 6, 1945

STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES**

*Sixteen hours ago an American airplane dropped one bomb on Hiroshima, an important Japanese Army base. That bomb had more power than 20,000 tons of T.N.T. It had more than two thousand times the blast power of the British “Grand Slam” which is the largest bomb ever yet used in the history of warfare.

The Japanese began the war from the air at Pearl Harbor. They have been repaid many fold. And the end is not yet. With this bomb we have now added a new and revolutionary increase in destruction to supplement the growing power of our armed forces. In their present form these bombs are now in production and even more powerful forms are in development.

It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe. The force from which the sun draws its power has been loosed against those who brought war to the Far East.
…]
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in the Hawaiian Islands on December 7, 1941 marked the official entrance of the US into WWII. *
atomicheritage.org/key-documents/truman-statement-hiroshima

*"Before 1939, it was the accepted belief of scientists that it was theoretically possible to release atomic energy. But no one knew any practical method of doing it. By 1942, however, we knew that the Germans were working feverishly to find a way to add atomic energy to the other engines of war with which they hoped to enslave the world. But they failed. We may be grateful to Providence that the Germans got the V-1’s and the V-2’s late and in limited quantities and even more grateful that they did not get the atomic bomb at all.

The battle of the laboratories held fateful risks for us as well as the battles of the air, land, and sea, and we have now won the battle of the laboratories as we have won the other battles.

Beginning in 1940, before Pearl Harbor, scientific knowledge useful in war was pooled between the United States and Great Britain, and many priceless helps to our victories have come from that arrangement. Under that general policy the research on the atomic bomb was begun. With American and British scientists working together we entered the race of discovery against the Germans."*
atomicheritage.org/history/attack-pearl-harbor-1941
history.co.uk/study-topics/history-of-ww2/atomic-bomb

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

There is a vast difference between defending ourselves against a barbarous act of aggression and dropping atomic bombs on large cities the vast majority of whose occupants were unaware their leaders were going to launch such an attack. They didn’t want to be at war anyway because unlike politicians who are in league with big business they had nothing to gain and everything to lose from being conscripted against their will, mutilated and killed while their leaders gave orders from a safe distance and profited from their links with the arms industry which inevitably thrives on war and bloodshed…

 

[tonyrey]

The US and UK governments chose to drop atomic bombs on two large cities without giving any warning to the Japanese government or consulting their own electorate. It was not necessary to inflict so much suffering and death on civilians who were the victims of their own government’s policies.

Agreed, but you said the Bomb was developed with “the express intention” of use against Japan and it wasn’t, it was developed as a deterrent to the Nazi Uranprojekt.

Since the Allies were at war against both Germany and Japan the Bomb was developed to be used against both nations but the war in Europe had ended by the time it was ready.

Richard Fenyman, for instance, later said “if the scientists in Germany could have developed this thing, then we would be helpless, and I think it would be the end of the civilization at that time. …] So the main reason why I did work on it at the time was because I was afraid that the Germans would do it first, and I felt a responsibility to society to develop this thing to maintain our position in the war.”

It was only after the Bomb was developed and the Nazis defeated that the US and UK governments decided to use it against Japan, which was defenseless against such a weapon.

It remains true that the US and UK governments chose to drop atomic bombs on two large cities without giving any warning to the Japanese government or consulting their own electorate. It was not necessary to inflict so much suffering and death on civilians who were the victims of their own government’s policies. There is evidence that the Japanese were ready to have peace talks.

 

[inocente]

Since the Allies were at war against both Germany and Japan the Bomb was developed to be used against both nations but the war in Europe had ended by the time it was ready.

I believe the Bomb wasn’t developed to be used, but as a deterrent, to deter the Nazis from making a first strike. Japan was thought to be less of a threat, but recently found documents show that Japan was well advanced in its program to develop the Bomb - latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-japan-bomb-20150805-story.html

Japan had difficulty obtaining a supply of uranium, but in May 1945, just after the surrender of Germany, a submarine carrying uranium oxide to Japan was captured. I don’t know whether that contributed to the decision to use the Bomb.

It remains true that the US and UK governments chose to drop atomic bombs on two large cities without giving any warning to the Japanese government or consulting their own electorate. It was not necessary to inflict so much suffering and death on civilians who were the victims of their own government’s policies. There is evidence that the Japanese were ready to have peace talks.

At the time, the sadistic brutality and fanaticism of the Japanese raised real fears that they would never surrender. It had already been seen how the Nazis brainwashed and armed children, and the fear was that the Japanese would make the Hitler Youth look like a kindergarten, and it would be necessary to kill many millions of Japanese, town by town, street by street, also losing many Allied lives in the process.

Imho the morality of dropping the Bomb is just not as simple as some make out, even without the fog of war, even with the luxury of seventy years of hindsight. Just thankful never to have had to make such decisions.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

LogisticsBranch;13716746:

Easy for you to say Tonyrey but you weren’t there! My father was at Pearl Harbor (1) when the Japanese dropped their bombs and my mother was there too! My mother said the sky instantly turned black. Lots of people died. I still have the news papers from that event since my mother saved them. I feel blessed they were alive otherwise I wouldn’t be here today! But if someone attacks me I promise you that I will not hesitate to take a gun and shoot them if they are on my property!

1. Quote: "Unexpected Attack"

*The first sign of the Japanese fleet racing towards Pearl Harbor came at 7:00 am the morning of December 7, when two US Army privates on the Hawaiian island of Oahu were just about to turn off a mobile radar station they had manned since 4:00 am. A slight disturbance on the screen gave pause to their actions - a large yet indistinct patch of light, which appeared to the men to come from 50 planes, seemed to be heading towards the island. Confused, one of the privates called the information center across the island, reaching an army lieutenant who assured them the light was simply a fleet of American B-17s. The lieutenant had heard Hawaiian music playing on the radio station earlier that morning, a signal that typically signified an approaching American aircraft to Hawaii, and determined that the blotch on the radar’s oscilloscope screen must be the incoming fleet.

Careful Japanese precautions and comprehensive planning allowed the attack on Pearl Harbor to remain completely shielded from US intelligence. For nearly two weeks prior to the attack, Japanese battleships and destroyers had escorted 43 fighters, 51 dive-bombers, 49 high-level bombers, and 40 torpedo planes from six carriers that floated 200 miles north of Pearl Harbor. The aircraft had traveled in complete radio silence in order to catch the Americans by surprise.

Upon reaching Pearl Harbor, the torpedo bombers skillfully maneuvered themselves into the harbor in groups of twos and threes in a sudden and forceful attack lasting only minutes. In another hour, a second fleet of 167 additional Japanese aircraft bombarded the site.

American residents who watched the attack from afar observed in horror as the screams of men on the sunken battleships rippled through the air, smoke rose from the sea, and the injured and dead swam in bloody waters slick with burning oil. When the effects of the attack subsided, the grim casualties became known: 2,403 American civilians and military personnel had been killed, and 1,178 wounded. Two battleships and 188 aircraft were destroyed.
*
. . .]
atomicheritage.org/history/attack-pearl-harbor-1941

1. **THE WHITE HOUSE

Washington, D.C.

IMMEDIATE RELEASE —August 6, 1945

STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES**

*Sixteen hours ago an American airplane dropped one bomb on Hiroshima, an important Japanese Army base. That bomb had more power than 20,000 tons of T.N.T. It had more than two thousand times the blast power of the British “Grand Slam” which is the largest bomb ever yet used in the history of warfare.

The Japanese began the war from the air at Pearl Harbor. They have been repaid many fold. And the end is not yet. With this bomb we have now added a new and revolutionary increase in destruction to supplement the growing power of our armed forces. In their present form these bombs are now in production and even more powerful forms are in development.

It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe. The force from which the sun draws its power has been loosed against those who brought war to the Far East.
…]
The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in the Hawaiian Islands on December 7, 1941 marked the official entrance of the US into WWII. *
atomicheritage.org/key-documents/truman-statement-hiroshima

*"Before 1939, it was the accepted belief of scientists that it was theoretically possible to release atomic energy. But no one knew any practical method of doing it. By 1942, however, we knew that the Germans were working feverishly to find a way to add atomic energy to the other engines of war with which they hoped to enslave the world. But they failed. We may be grateful to Providence that the Germans got the V-1’s and the V-2’s late and in limited quantities and even more grateful that they did not get the atomic bomb at all.

The battle of the laboratories held fateful risks for us as well as the battles of the air, land, and sea, and we have now won the battle of the laboratories as we have won the other battles.

Beginning in 1940, before Pearl Harbor, scientific knowledge useful in war was pooled between the United States and Great Britain, and many priceless helps to our victories have come from that arrangement. Under that general policy the research on the atomic bomb was begun. With American and British scientists working together we entered the race of discovery against the Germans."*
atomicheritage.org/history/attack-pearl-harbor-1941
history.co.uk/study-topics/history-of-ww2/atomic-bomb

GOD BLESS AMERICA!
[snip]

I don’t agree with you both (tonyrey or inocente)! I’m a United States citizen and defending my country is AMERICAN! Furthermore, there were and still are Japanese people living in the Hawaiian Islands that were killed by their own people! They didn’t have a problem like you two have when the U.S. and Britain bombed Japan! Innocent people die all the time. Read the newspaper for heavens sake! I’m proud to be an American! There were no peace talks with the Japanese government! NONE! They committed an international crime and as it goes, WAR on them was warranted!!!

 

[inocente]

I don’t agree with you both (tonyrey or inocente)! I’m a United States citizen and defending my country is AMERICAN! Furthermore, there were and still are Japanese people living in the Hawaiian Islands that were killed by their own people! They didn’t have a problem like you two have when the U.S. and Britain bombed Japan! Innocent people die all the time. Read the newspaper for heavens sake! I’m proud to be an American! There were no peace talks with the Japanese government! NONE! They committed an international crime and as it goes, WAR on them was warranted!!!

I’m sort of with you. The notion that it was immoral for scientists to do their duty to protect their country, if applied to everyone else, would mean America would now be an Axis colony, and any American who didn’t collaborate would be a slave. It’s a bit stunning how some have completely forgotten the fanatical barbarism of the Axis powers, and how quick they are to judge others.

I’ve never had to make a decision about killing to defend my country, and can only have great respect for those who do. The commanders’ in chief decision to drop the Bomb was such a decision. So you’ll get no argument from me that they are owed some semper fidelis (“always loyal”). Respect.

To all those who keep us free - youtube.com/watch?v=MgoZWQ1opDE

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Franklin Roosevelt’s “Day of Infamy” Speech:

Mr. Vice President, Mr. Speaker, Members of the Senate, and of the House of Representatives:

Yesterday, December 7th, 1941 – a date which will live in infamy – the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.

Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. And while this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or of armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time, the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces.

I regret to tell you that very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday, the Japanese government also launched an attack against Malaya.
Last night, Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.
Last night, Japanese forces attacked Guam.
Last night, Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.
Last night, the Japanese attacked Wake Island.
And this morning, the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves.

The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.

As commander in chief of the Army and Navy, I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense. But always will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.

I believe that I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.

Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory, and our interests are in grave danger.

With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph – so help us God.

I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7th, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese empire.

history1900s.about.com/od/franklindroosevelt/a/Day-Of-Infamy-Speech.htm

I am proud to be an AMERICAN! I love my presidents!

 

[Charlemagne_III]

But apparently securing the homeland has led to an individualistic society where duty is passé and anyone on an internet forum is more qualified than God to judge others.

As you have certainly made it your business to do.

God, not we, will be the judge of those who plan to kill and in the greatest abundance possible.