Science and Pro Life

[Lion_IRC]

Inquisitor85:

A foetus doesnt develop a pain response until approximately 27wks

I thought 20 weeks was the generally accepted time.

Regardless some born humans don’t feel pain. Is it all right to kill them? Is it all right to kill anyone if the method is painless?

Inquisitor85 is quite mistaken. 27 weeks? Nope!

Try 7 weeks. (Google search fetal response to external stimuli)
And that’s just what we can ‘detect’ - remember we are talking about a living creature who can’t elaborate their pain level on a scale of 1 to 10.

Also, if you can stomach the disgusting truth - the abortion industry’s dirty little secret - do a Google search on abortion clinics which offer fetal anaesthetic. That’s right. Apparently mothers who don’t want their unborn embryos to “feel pain” can opt to anaesthetise the condemned child.

Can anyone guess what percentage of mothers decline this abortion clinic optional extra?
…Well, I suppose it IS expensive.

 

[Lion_IRC]

To the extent that science increasingly supports arguments for the existence of a Higher Being, we should consider the strong, secular anti-abortion argument called argumentum ad baculum

 

[midori]

“Hello, I was born at 27 weeks’ gestation. I’m so happy I just developed my nerves the other day ago.”

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

(Hint: the nervous system is pretty much one of the first major systems to develop. The neural tube develops first. It separates out into forebrain/midbrain/hindbrain around week 6 or 7— not week 6 or 7 since conception, but dated from your last period. So mentally subtract two weeks to get actual age. After that, the forebrain/midbrain/hindbrain continue to separate out into cerebrum, cerebellum, brain stem, pituitary gland, and the hypothalamus. Around week 8, the sense of touch begins to develop, about the same time the limbs start developing.)

 

[Inquisitor85]

Ok this is going to be response to everyone who has posted about foetal pain. I also said nothing about CNS development which starts at around 6wks, and then continues from there, I am specifically talking about pain response.

The 27 week figure, I got from an interview given by a spokesperson for the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology

“The science shows that based on gestational age, the fetus is not capable of feeling pain until the third trimester,” said Kate Connors, a spokesperson for ACOG. The third trimester begins at about 27 weeks of pregnancy.
(link one)

As an additional piece of information here’s a MSM link explaining that foetuses feel no pain prior to 24wks. (link two)

Do Fetuses Feel Pain? What the Science Says | Live Science

'No foetal pain before 24 weeks' - BBC News

 

[Inquisitor85]

That would depend on a variety of factors, there’s not a simple yes or no answer to your question.

 

[Inquisitor85]

To the extent that science increasingly supports arguments for the existence of a Higher Being

[Citation Needed]

 

[midori]

“The science shows that based on gestational age, the fetus is not capable of feeling pain until the third trimester,” said Kate Connors, a spokesperson for ACOG. The third trimester begins at about 27 weeks of pregnancy.

And yet actual surgeons who perform fetal surgery routinely administer anasthesia at 20 weeks’ LMP.

Five seconds looking at some scholarly article overviews in the actual medical journals, instead of some spokesperson’s talking points—

The leading textbook on clinical anesthesia says: “It is clear that the fetus is capable of mounting a physiochemical stress response to noxious stimuli as early as 18 weeks.”
Brusseau R and Bulich LA, Anesthesia for fetal intervention, in Essential Clinical Anesthesia, Charles Vacanti, Pankaj Sikka, Richard Urman, Mark Dershwitz, B. Scott Segal, Eds., Cambridge University Press, NY; July 2011; 772-776.

A recent review of the evidence concludes that from the 15th week of gestation onward, “the fetus is extremely sensitive to painful stimuli, and that this fact should be taken into account when performing invasive medical procedures on the fetus. It is necessary to apply adequate analgesia to prevent the suffering of the fetus.”
Sekulic S et al. , Appearance of fetal pain could be associated with maturation of the mesodiencephalic structures. J Pain Res . 9, 1031, 2016

Fetal reactions provide evidence of pain response. The unborn baby reacts to noxious stimuli with avoidance reactions and stress responses. As early as 8 weeks the baby exhibits reflex movement during invasive procedures.
Success rate and challenges of fetal anesthesia for ultrasound guided fetal intervention by maternal opioid and benzodiazepine administration, J Maternal-Fetal Neonatal Medicine 26, 158, 2013.

There is extensive evidence of a hormonal stress response by unborn babies as early as 18 weeks including “increases in cortisol, beta-endorphin, and decreases in the pulsatility index of the fetal middle cerebral artery.”
Fetal endoscopic surgery: indications and anaesthetic management, Best Pract Res Clin Anaesthesiol 18, 231, 2004; Brusseau R and Mizrahi-Arnaud A, Fetal Anesthesia and Pain Management for Intrauterine Therapy, Clinics in Perinatology 40, 429, 2013.

Two independent studies in 2006 used brain scans of the sensory part of unborn babies’ brains, showing response to pain. They found a “clear cortical response” and concluded there was “the potential for both higher-level pain processing and pain-induced plasticity in the human brain from a very early age.”
Slater R et al ., Cortical Pain Response in Human Infants, J Neuroscience 25, 3662, 2006; Bartocci M et al ., Pain Activates Cortical Areas in the Preterm Newborn Brain, Pain 122, 109, 2006

 

[midori]

So… taking a poke around what ACOG publishes…

From a 2013 advocacy ad in the Austin American Statesman–

Facts are very important, especially when discussing the health of women and the American public. And a lot of “facts” are being asserted in this debate. Truth be told, the scientific underpinnings of this legislation are unsound. First, there’s the 20-week ban, which is based on the argument that a fetus can feel pain. Recent and rigorous scientific reviews have concluded that there is no evidence of fetal perception of pain until 29 weeks at the earliest2 (third trimester is 28–40 weeks).

All right. Now let’s look at the ACOG website from a 2013 fact sheet–

A human fetus does not have the capacity to experience pain until after viability. Rigorous scientific studies have found that the connections necessary to transmit signals from peripheral sensory nerves to the brain, as well as the brain structures necessary to process those signals, do not develop until at least 24 weeks of gestation.i Because it lacks these connections and structures, the fetus does not even have the physiological capacity to perceive pain until at least 24 weeks of gestation.

So at the same time, unless the Austin American Statesman ad language has a typo in it, the ACOG is jumping 5 weeks in its timeline-- from the 29 weeks that it published in the newspaper for the public, to the 24 weeks that it has on its website for those taking the time to look.

So, why is ACOG so emphatic that pain perception develops late? Part of it is based, not on their own research— which is odd, because you’re an organization made up of almost 60,000 ob/gyns who presumably have some degree of real-life experience in their own field-- but because of this 2010 bit from the RCOG–

RCOG, 2010: In reviewing the neuroanatomical and physiological evidence in the fetus, it was apparent that connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation and, as most neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception, it can be concluded that the fetus cannot experience pain in any sense prior to this gestation.

So, the RCOG is making a flat statement. IF the cortex isn’t properly connected in the way we expect with maturity, THEN no pain can be experienced.

 

[midori]

However, other ob/gyn organizations point out—

Fetal pain perception begins with the presence of cutaneous sensory receptors(nociceptors), which begin to develop in the peri-oral area at 7 weeks,spread to the palms and soles by 11 weeks, to trunk and proximal limbs by 15 weeks, and are present throughout the fetus’ entire body by 20 weeks. As these sensory neurons develop, the unborn child begins to react to touch. Early in the process, the pain system consists of a spinal reflex from a peripheral sensory neuron which detects the noxious stimuli, transmitted to a dorsal horn neuron in the spinal cord, which is then transmitted to a ventral horn motor neuron, which initiates a motor response transmitted to the muscles that causes the fetus to withdraw from the tissue damage.

The part of the central nervous system leading from the peripheral nerves to the brain starts developing in the dorsal horn of the spinal cord at 13 weeks. Connection is made to the brain’s thalamus (midbrain) between 14-20 weeks. Early in the second trimester, the fetus reacts to stimuli that would be recognized as painful if applied to an adult human, in much the same ways as an adult, for example, by recoiling. Fetuses can be seen reacting to intra-hepatic vein needling with vigorous body and breathing movements, increased heart rate, and increased blood flow to the brain (which does not occur during placental cord insertion needling, where there are no pain receptors). Increases in levels of circulating stress hormones and endogenous opioids (which are independent from maternal levels) can also be measured.11 Although the neurons of the cerebral cortex begin development at 8 weeks, and are complete by 20 weeks, it appears that neural connections between the thalamus and the cerebral cortex are made starting at 17 weeks, and are fully functional by 26-30 weeks. Electroencephalographic bursts (measuring cerebral activity) are noted in the cerebrum starting at 20 weeks and have a mature pattern by 30 weeks.

Who sounds like they know their subject?

(edit-- and since it ended up being a two-parter, I’ve got room for some of the journal cites, but not all—)

KJS Anand, et al, “Pain and It’s Effects in the Human Neonate and Fetus”, New England Journal of Medicine 317:21 (1987)
1321-1329.

LB Meyers, et al, “Fetal Endoscopic Surgery: Indications and Anesthetic Management,” Best Practice and Research Clinical
Anesthesiology. 18:2 (2204) 231-258.

SW Derbyshire, “Fetal Pain?”, Best Practices and Research Clinical Obstetrics and Gynecology, 24:5 (2010) 647-655.

R Gupta, et al, “Fetal Surgery and Anesthetic Implications,” Continuing Education in Anesthesia, Critical Care and Pain. 8:2
(2008) 71-75.

SJ Lee, “Fetal Pain: A Systematic, Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence,” Journal of the American Medical Association.
294:8 (2005) 947-954.

CL Lowery, “Neurodevelopmental Changes of Fetal Pain,” Seminars in Perinatology. 31 (2007) 275-282

X Giannakoulopoulos, et al, “Fetal Plasma Cortisol and B-endorphin Response to Intrauterine Needling,” Lancet. 344
(1994) 77-81.

 

[EZweber]

As far as viability goes, that makes no sense for determining humanity. As our medical science progresses, the point of viability will become earlier and earlier. If humanity comes with viability, then the point of humanity will become earlier and earlier.