Science bashing - What is it?

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Science and technology together deserve some credit and some bashing, just as the Catholic Church deserves some credit and some bashing now and then. Nobody is exempt from bashing. The main bash against science I would offer is that through an arsenal of nuclear weapons science has delivered into our hands the means by which to annihilate the human race and many other life forms along with it.

Hopefully the arrogance of science will be tempered by the humility of wisdom. 👍
 
I think the better discussion is how to view science. I view it as a tool for knowledge.:cool:
 
I think the better discussion is how to view science. I view it as a tool for knowledge.:cool:
I view it as a tool, but what kind of tool depends on the area of science we’re talking about. Medical science, I view as a tool, gifted from God, to understand disease and injury and to attempt to cure or prevent it from causing suffering. Natural science is a tool to understand God’s Majesty and observing the complexity and order of His creation. And Scientology as a false religion 😛 (lol, I know it doesn’t have to do with science, but I couldn’t help the pun)
 
Science is not arrogant. People are. Science is a method for understanding how a thing works. Problems with scientists: sinful experimentation called now the research. Jude 23,
“save others by snatching them out of the fire;” is the exploitave excuse many use for their research. Since when have you ever seen a social scientist risk fire to snatch someone from it? They douse flames with accelarants. In the meanwhile, the poor Christian sits by thinking he is being offered help.

Jn 10:1

“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever does not enter a sheepfold* through the gate but climbs over elsewhere is a thief and a robber. "
 
Right! An accusation tossed at anyone who disagrees with the prevailing so called scientfic truth’s.
I would word it this way: “An accusation tossed at anyone who disagrees with the prevailing scientfic truths AND does not have a valid or plausible “scientific truth” or hypothesis to put forward against those truths.”

But I think science bashing is more than just opposing a theory here or there. In fact many of those who oppose evolution or anthropogenic climate change actually use what looks like science to do so, and others who do not follow the scientific critique of these fake-science refutations (like not reading the errata published in small print on a boring page of a newspaper or magazine) will not know that those fake-science proofs are bogus or roundly refuted, and will think their opposing theories are correct.

Often people want to believe or disbelieve something so they overlook the professional, scientific refutations of fake-science; that’s called “motivated cognitions,” and we are all guilty of that to some extent or the other.

RE anthropogenic climate change, being a Catholic environmentalist, concerned about life on planet earth and sins, etc, I have a tendency I’m well aware of to look mainly at the more serious projections. It would sort of be like taking more seriously the most serious harms that could come from a medical condition or assessment of a home’s storm-worthiness, then striving to fix the situation as much as I can.

I seek to avoid the FALSE NEGATIVE of failing to address a serious threat, rather than, like scientists, seeking to avoid the FALSE POSITIVE of making an untrue claim. Scientists cannot afford to be the boy who called wolf when there is no wolf, while I cannot afford to be the villager who gets eaten up by the wolf when there really is a wolf.

So I do sometimes chide scientists for being reticent and conservative in their claims, even tho I understand why they are being that way. So I am mildly engaged in science bashing myself.* However, since climate scientists have been coming under severe attack from climate change denialists and skeptics, I’ve become a bit more light-hearted and less frequent in my chiding.

*Note, when I myself do science (I’m a social scientist), I put on that reticent cap and err on the side of caution when making claims. For instance, I was writing a paper about Food Rights and Climate Change shortly after the 2007 IPCC report came out. I noticed a claim on pg 193, Ch. 10 Asia of their “impacts” section that said the Himalayan glaciers could all melt by 2035. I thought that a pretty rash claim – bec I had earlier been working on a futuristic screenplay and had queried the scientists about when the glaciers might all melt, highest end projection and it was many 100s of years from now. So I looked up the source – World Wildlife Fund. Now WWF and other such NGO reports are done by good people with good sci backgrounds, so I got their report and their source, NEW SCIENTIST. At that point I decided NOT to use that 2035 info in my paper, since NS is not a top-tier sci journal.

Shortly after that, some glaciologists had found the 2035 error and you know the rest of the story. (Scientists are already overworked, and the ones writing the “science” sections had not been monitoring the “impacts” sections.)

However, this mistake on pg. 193 of 1000s of pages – one that was caught by a scientist, but after IPCC publication – was turned into a cause for dismissing all climate science by the denialist industry, denialists, and skeptics.

They were not “science bashing” per se, but they were abusing science.
 

Shortly after that, some glaciologists had found the 2035 error and you know the rest of the story. (Scientists are already overworked, and the ones writing the “science” sections had not been monitoring the “impacts” sections.)

However, this mistake on pg. 193 of 1000s of pages – one that was caught by a scientist, but after IPCC publication – was turned into a cause for dismissing all climate science by the denialist industry, denialists, and skeptics.

They were not “science bashing” per se, but they were abusing science.
This is arrogance, “I know because I’m a scientist”. How is skepticism abusive?
 
  1. “Keep your beliefs off my body!” And did you get pregnant by yourself? Was the man in another room when it happened?
Yes, Ed, I was raped.
  1. Reproductive rights! Abortion. How about self-control? 100% guaranteed to prevent pregnancy and all STDs.
Raped.
  1. Transgendered was a disorder yesterday, but not a disorder today. Hmmm… the APA seems to be at non-work again.
It’s almost as if scientific conclusions are <gasp!> changing <gasp!> based on new scientific research. Scientific conclusions are never supposed to change, just ask Galileo.
  1. Heard of “minor attracted persons”? They were pedophiles for a long time but they hope the APA will cooperate with them.
I don’t see why not, after all, homosexuality and pedophilia are pretty much the same thing, right? It’s not like someone gets seriously hurt in one case, and no one gets hurt in the other, right? :rolleyes:😉
 
Scientific truth, this is a really abused term. It’s about agreement. Sometimes things can get really bushy, relying on each other reputation. The problem is that, some results that are considered truth, are then used by other persons, as “ammunition” for various purposes.
There are many errors made by ?science or scientists?, some of them with really bad consequences.
 
This is arrogance, “I know because I’m a scientist”. How is skepticism abusive?
No, using some mistake that was actually caught later by scientists and admitted as a mistake as proof that the whole of climate science is wrong; or selecting one scientist and his findings (like Mann and his tree ring data) to say the whole of climate science is wrong. That is abusing science, esp since ACC was well established before Mann’s works and before the glacier mistake. And esp since Mann is not wrong – but it has been very wrong for denialist to lob death threats at him and his young child.

The difference between a skeptic and a denialist is this: a skeptic has some legitimate questions about some theory and is willing to listen to what the scientists say re his/her ideas that put the theory in doubt, and accept what the scientists say if they address those doubts adequately. And ALL such doubts (and red herrings and strawmen and Rush Limbaugh craziness) about ACC have been addressed adequately again and again and again – so there really are very few skeptics on this issue, only those who have not paid much attention and have not yet engaged the climate scientists. I think there may have been some skeptics as late as 2006, but after that, they are pretty much all denialists.

A denialist, OTOH, is one who will never accept the science no matter what. There are those who reject evolution and/or anthropogenic climate change who will never ever change their views no matter what evidence and science is presented to them. They are ideologically wedded to their positions. And bec they know people in general respect science, they cloak their counter-hypotheses in the garb of science and create “fake-science” so as to deceive people.

My own position is that I accept what the climate scientists say, knowing they are reticent in their claims and it might be worse than what they say, and also knowing that there is a less than 5% chance they are wrong.

While I do sincerely hope they are wrong (it would be really great if they were wrong), I behave and act as if they are right, and mitigate ACC to the best of my ability. And I’ve found to our surprise it is saving us a lot of money, without reducing living standards, while we have now reduced our GHGs by more than 60% below our 1990 emissions. I’m not even counting the fact that we have been living within 1 or 2 miles of work, which we have been doing for the past 43 years to save finite resources for future generations (which also helps mitigate ACC), bec that was initially done for a different reason.

Since JPII, BXVI, and the US Catholic bishops agree with that position of prudence (as I’m sure Pope Francis does too, who has background in chemistry and would have ability to understand that greenhouse gas molecules absorb and emit radiation within the thermal infrared range see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas ) – that ACC is a serious problem and it is everyone’s responsibility to mitigate it (even if one is not totally sold on the science) – it’s extremely hard for me to understand why so many Catholics should be skeptics and denialists at this point in the process, 18 years after science reached 95% confidence on ACC (.05 on the null). I do understand that our media, educational system, and gov have been pretty much complicit in this denialism over the decades, but that’s not a complete excuse.

It seems the skeptics and denialists neither want to reduce their risk of harming others (they do not even want to countenance the idea that maybe there is a 50%, even a 10% chance the scientists are correct) nor collect on the great financial savings to be had by mitigating. I guess that could be called “super-denialism” and abuse of science by totalling ignoring the science & its implications, and fishing for whatever fake-science the well-oiled denialist industry spews out that they can find to justify their position. It is totally flabberghasting to me. God gave us brains and a heart, and hope of salvation (and nothing, not even death, to fear), and we should not be afraid to use these faculties and graces and seek out the real truth on matters.

I’d thought back in 1990 that all I had to do was mitigate ACC to the best of our ability (my husband didn’t want to sacrifice, so we’ve done it without sacrificing our lifestyle), and then inform a few others about the problem and great savings in mitigating it, and they’d inform others until the whole world would be mitigating. And I could within a few months get back to my regularly scheduled life. It has been a rude awakening over 23 years of how obstinately opposed to reducing the risk of harm the world really is, even among front-pewers in my own church. After years of banging my head against this brick wall of derelict obstinance, I had decided to just keep quiet on the issue & just live in sorrow holding Our Lady in my heart that my pitiful efforts without those of most other people would not amount to much help. We don’t have children, so it was no skin off my personal nose if the world was determined to wipe out much, perhaps all, of life on earth over the next 100s, 1000s or 100,000 years. Then the reading in Mass that exact same week was, if you know your brother is doing some sin and you fail to inform him, the sin falls back on you.

So in my old age until my very last breath I will continue to bang my head against this brick wall of obstinate resistance and inform people that ACC is real and dangerous to life, and mitigating it will greatly benefit one and the world.

Sorry if I’m a bother to people here. I have to do it. As a Christian, I have no choice.
 

it’s extremely hard for me to understand why so many Catholics should be skeptics and denialists at this point in the process, 18 years after science reached 95% confidence on ACC (.05 on the null). I do understand that our media, educational system, and gov have been pretty much complicit in this denialism over the decades, but that’s not a complete excuse.
Clearly, your argument is correct insofar as concerns the other things you said. My personal opinion on why many are skeptics is simple. It’s the species. Same reason wolves and other potentially danegrous animals have been hunted to near extinction. Many scientists have an equal hate for the Church because they insist on making social problems so complex, whereas the answers are so simple. If we all loved each other as Jesus said, we’d have no AIDS epidemic, no venereal disease, no prejudice, no crime, no unequal distribution of resources, and no distrust to the extent that we can’t believe these scientists are really trying to avert climate disaster. The social scientist essentially wants to use a hammer to ‘facilitate’ people’s love; the religious person the same end with prayer, gentle words, and if necessary, via the ex parte adoption of laissez faire faith and self sacrificing love.
 
In order for a respectful dialogue to occur, I’m looking for some concrete information.
  1. Define science bashing.
  2. What particular area of science is most impacted? I’d prefer not to discuss banned topics like evolution but see no harm in having it listed.
  3. Articles or books that define it.
  4. Has it increased or decreased in the last 10 years? If so, why? Articles or book references would be helpful.
  5. What is the practical effect(s) or outcome of science bashing?
Peace,
Ed
Don’t we have to define the word “bashing” first?
Don’t we have to know what “bashing” is not?

Bashing is not disagreeing with something.
Bashing is not presenting arguments against something.
Bashing is not trying to persuade and teach an alternate concept.

Bashing is a deliberate attempt to force an alternate concept.
Bashing is a deliberate attempt to belittle and abuse.

Bashing is a technique that seeks to destroy sincere and productive discussion.

It is unfortunate that so much of our discussions center around bashing.

When we “bash” an idea rather than “discuss” an idea, we are really bashing the individual who holds a particular idea. It is my hope that we can quit this bashing of people and learn how to teach by love and example. I think that our wonderful new Pope will be able to teach us this.

One form of bashing is presenting the people of an alternate concept as those who do the bashing. On the internet, I am always suspicious of the who is actually writing a particularly bad piece of bashing, and what their intent is.
 
First, let me start by saying that I believe in both science and Catholicism. I also believe that they are compatible as long as each stays in the realm it should.

To me, when science tries to prove whether or not there is a God that created the universe, that is a problem. This is something that religion tells us, not science.

On the same token, when religion tries to prove how God created the universe, this is also a problem. This is something that science tells us, not religion.

Religion tells us that God created the universe and science tells us that He did it via the Big Bang. I believe that God wants us to discover these things and that is one of the reasons that He gave us the intellectual ability to do so. It helps us to get to know and understand Him better.

Where I see science bashing on these boards is when people try to deny the Big Bang based on Genesis, or when they deny other scientific findings based on their interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is not a science book, and we should not try to make it one. The creation story in Genesis was not meant to teach us the science of creation, it was meant to teach us that God created everything.

When we deny scientific findings, or label science as gibberish, etc, that is science bashing.

The problem with it is that you have people who are living with their head in the sand, and are not experiencing the wonder that comes from realizing the amazing mechanics that God used to create our world. While it is wondrous to think of God creating all of this, it is more wondrous when one has an understanding of the incredible mechanics that it took to make it happen. The human mind simply is not capable of planning creation. We can only observe what was created and how and look at it in awe.
 
First, let me start by saying that I believe in both science and Catholicism. I also believe that they are compatible as long as each stays in the realm it should.

To me, when science tries to prove whether or not there is a God that created the universe, that is a problem. This is something that religion tells us, not science.

On the same token, when religion tries to prove how God created the universe, this is also a problem. This is something that science tells us, not religion.

Religion tells us that God created the universe and science tells us that He did it via the Big Bang. I believe that God wants us to discover these things and that is one of the reasons that He gave us the intellectual ability to do so. It helps us to get to know and understand Him better.

Where I see science bashing on these boards is when people try to deny the Big Bang based on Genesis, or when they deny other scientific findings based on their interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is not a science book, and we should not try to make it one. The creation story in Genesis was not meant to teach us the science of creation, it was meant to teach us that God created everything.

When we deny scientific findings, or label science as gibberish, etc, that is science bashing.

The problem with it is that you have people who are living with their head in the sand, and are not experiencing the wonder that comes from realizing the amazing mechanics that God used to create our world. While it is wondrous to think of God creating all of this, it is more wondrous when one has an understanding of the incredible mechanics that it took to make it happen. The human mind simply is not capable of planning creation. We can only observe what was created and how and look at it in awe.
I want to clarify your statement:

When we deny scientific findings, or label science as gibberish, etc, that is science bashing

No matter how foolish one may appear, denying scientific findings is not “bashing”.

Saying, “I don’t accept this or that scientific theory or accept this or that scientific finding.” Is not “bashing”.
Saying, “This or that scientific theory is of the devil and those who believe it are going to Hell.” Now that is “bashing”.

Let us not use the word “bashing” for disagreeing or denying. They are different words with different meanings.
 
I want to clarify your statement:

When we deny scientific findings, or label science as gibberish, etc, that is science bashing

No matter how foolish one may appear, denying scientific findings is not “bashing”.

Saying, “I don’t accept this or that scientific theory or accept this or that scientific finding.” Is not “bashing”.
Saying, “This or that scientific theory is of the devil and those who believe it are going to Hell.” Now that is “bashing”.

Let us not use the word “bashing” for disagreeing or denying. They are different words with different meanings.
Then why do people post here on a regular basis - using zero science - to interpret our holy book by their self-proclaimed scientific standards? I see it all the time. They say the Bible is not a science book, followed by: “According to science, your holy book is wrong, here, here and here.” I wish they could’ve been there when Jesus raised the dead or gave sight to the blind using zero science or technology. Or know that one miracle has been attributed to the intercession of Pope John Paul II and that he is one miracle away from sainthood. Today.

Peace,
Ed
 
I want to clarify your statement:

When we deny scientific findings, or label science as gibberish, etc, that is science bashing

No matter how foolish one may appear, denying scientific findings is not “bashing”.

Saying, “I don’t accept this or that scientific theory or accept this or that scientific finding.” Is not “bashing”.
Saying, “This or that scientific theory is of the devil and those who believe it are going to Hell.” Now that is “bashing”.

Let us not use the word “bashing” for disagreeing or denying. They are different words with different meanings.
I think, and I don’t want to put words in the other poster’s mouth, that he / she was saying that “I don’t accept this or that scientific theory or accept this or that scientific finding” should be based on *scientific *reasons.

Science “bashing” often occurs because of political ideologies, not because of honest disputes about data or theories.
 
Science-bashing is questioning whatever “facts” liberals choose to believe, whether or not they have anything whatsoever to do with science, scientific evidence, or the scientific method.
That is absolutely correct, it seems political and social victories work better when one is perceived as a victim.
 
I think, and I don’t want to put words in the other poster’s mouth, that he / she was saying that “I don’t accept this or that scientific theory or accept this or that scientific finding” should be based on *scientific *reasons.

Science “bashing” often occurs because of political ideologies, not because of honest disputes about data or theories.
That may be true but we still need to use words with their proper meaning.

Bashing is a tool of bullies and there are plenty of bullies on both sides of every fence.
 
Then why do people post here on a regular basis - using zero science - to interpret our holy book by their self-proclaimed scientific standards? I see it all the time. They say the Bible is not a science book, followed by: “According to science, your holy book is wrong, here, here and here.” I wish they could’ve been there when Jesus raised the dead or gave sight to the blind using zero science or technology. Or know that one miracle has been attributed to the intercession of Pope John Paul II and that he is one miracle away from sainthood. Today.

Peace,
Ed
If you want to go back to living in a cave, scrounging around for food in the mud, warring with your neighbors for every morsel and dying at the age of 20 due to perfectly preventable diseases then be our guest. Go ahead, reject science. No one is stopping you.
 
I want to clarify your statement:

When we deny scientific findings, or label science as gibberish, etc, that is science bashing

No matter how foolish one may appear, denying scientific findings is not “bashing”.

Saying, “I don’t accept this or that scientific theory or accept this or that scientific finding.” Is not “bashing”.
Saying, “This or that scientific theory is of the devil and those who believe it are going to Hell.” Now that is “bashing”.

Let us not use the word “bashing” for disagreeing or denying. They are different words with different meanings.
Thank you, I agree that I worded that poorly. What I meant was more along the lines of what you are saying. When we reject these findings based on a flawed belief that they are intrinsically evil, that is bashing. When we disagree based on competing evidence, that is not bashing. My apologies for the poor wording.
 
Then why do people post here on a regular basis - using zero science - to interpret our holy book by their self-proclaimed scientific standards? I see it all the time. They say the Bible is not a science book, followed by: “According to science, your holy book is wrong, here, here and here.” I wish they could’ve been there when Jesus raised the dead or gave sight to the blind using zero science or technology. Or know that one miracle has been attributed to the intercession of Pope John Paul II and that he is one miracle away from sainthood. Today.

Peace,
Ed
I have not seen this happen. The Bible is not a science book, however, science has never proven the Bible wrong. The Bible likewise does not prove science wrong. They are different things.
 
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