Science bashing - What is it?

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Veritas

**If you want to go back to living in a cave, scrounging around for food in the mud, warring with your neighbors for every morsel and dying at the age of 20 due to perfectly preventable diseases then be our guest. Go ahead, reject science. No one is stopping you. **

But if and when mushroom clouds are popping up all over the world, that may be a time when, thanks to science, we’ll all be bashed back into our dark caves as the result of a perfectly preventable disease.
 
Clearly, your argument is correct insofar as concerns the other things you said. My personal opinion on why many are skeptics is simple. It’s the species. Same reason wolves and other potentially danegrous animals have been hunted to near extinction.
Not sure what you mean – but if it is “human nature,” then I agree. Our problem is human nature has not changed, but technological advances have made it possible to kill off many more “Abels” than before, billions of them. I guess that’s why Christ came toward the end of time, r/t much earlier. Only by his redemption can we hope to overcome this human nature and do a little good, instead of tremendous bad.
Many scientists have an equal hate for the Church because they insist on making social problems so complex, whereas the answers are so simple. If we all loved each other as Jesus said, we’d have no AIDS epidemic, no venereal disease, no prejudice, no crime, no unequal distribution of resources, and no distrust to the extent that we can’t believe these scientists are really trying to avert climate disaster. The social scientist essentially wants to use a hammer to ‘facilitate’ people’s love; the religious person the same end with prayer, gentle words, and if necessary, via the ex parte adoption of laissez faire faith and self sacrificing love.
Well, I’m a social scientist – we are just trying to understand people best we can; they’re a bit more complicated than rocks 🙂 – and I’ve always had a great deal of respect for physical scientists…was even planning on going into physics at one time, or become a large animal vet. And I’ve always been a Christian close to God, so it is possible to be both Christian and a social scientist.

Maybe the reason some scientists hate Christians is because some Christians have made themselves detestable. I remember promoting my Little Way of Environmental Healing, and an atheist read it and was very touched. I don’t think he converted, but he did say because of it he didn’t hate Christians any more.

RE the complexities of science – while climate science is complicated, the solutions are fairly simple, and also serve to solve many other problems while helping one’s pocketbook and the economy. But the ultimate solution (as you point out) is love. It is our lack of love and our human nature that blocks us from doing the right things, even when they are good for ourselves and our progeny and the rest of God’s good creation. It really is simple, as you suggest.

We need Jesus now more than ever.

I have an idea, why not start a church based on Christian principles and promote those principles – we can call it the Catholic Church 🙂
 
First, let me start by saying that I believe in both science and Catholicism. I also believe that they are compatible as long as each stays in the realm it should.

To me, when science tries to prove whether or not there is a God that created the universe, that is a problem. This is something that religion tells us, not science.

On the same token, when religion tries to prove how God created the universe, this is also a problem. This is something that science tells us, not religion.

Religion tells us that God created the universe and science tells us that He did it via the Big Bang. I believe that God wants us to discover these things and that is one of the reasons that He gave us the intellectual ability to do so. It helps us to get to know and understand Him better.

Where I see science bashing on these boards is when people try to deny the Big Bang based on Genesis, or when they deny other scientific findings based on their interpretation of the Bible. The Bible is not a science book, and we should not try to make it one. The creation story in Genesis was not meant to teach us the science of creation, it was meant to teach us that God created everything.
When we deny scientific findings, or label science as gibberish, etc, that is science bashing.
And I would agree. True science is not gibberish. What is gibberish is certain assertions peddled by the New Atheists all over the college and university lecture halls throughout the West. Their assertions are not " scientific findings. " I find it interesting however that you continue to feel that you have the right to missinterpret what others have said. Anyone who does that can make no claim to be a lover of science or any truth at all.
The problem with it is that you have people who are living with their head in the sand, and are not experiencing the wonder that comes from realizing the amazing mechanics that God used to create our world. While it is wondrous to think of God creating all of this, it is more wondrous when one has an understanding of the incredible mechanics that it took to make it happen. The human mind simply is not capable of planning creation. We can only observe what was created and how and look at it in awe.
And all men and women who love the truth would certainly agree. I certainly would. And neither science nor the learned have a corner on this appreciation. It is equally open to the simple and unlearned, not in the same detail but in its more obvious paramaters. Linus2nd
 
No, using some mistake that was actually caught later by scientists and admitted as a mistake as proof that the whole of climate science is wrong; or selecting one scientist and his findings (like Mann and his tree ring data) to say the whole of climate science is wrong. That is abusing science, esp since ACC was well established before Mann’s works and before the glacier mistake. And esp since Mann is not wrong – but it has been very wrong for denialist to lob death threats at him and his young child.

The difference between a skeptic and a denialist is this: a skeptic has some legitimate questions about some theory and is willing to listen to what the scientists say re his/her ideas that put the theory in doubt, and accept what the scientists say if they address those doubts adequately. And ALL such doubts (and red herrings and strawmen and Rush Limbaugh craziness) about ACC have been addressed adequately again and again and again – so there really are very few skeptics on this issue, only those who have not paid much attention and have not yet engaged the climate scientists. I think there may have been some skeptics as late as 2006, but after that, they are pretty much all denialists.

A denialist, OTOH, is one who will never accept the science no matter what. There are those who reject evolution and/or anthropogenic climate change who will never ever change their views no matter what evidence and science is presented to them. They are ideologically wedded to their positions. And bec they know people in general respect science, they cloak their counter-hypotheses in the garb of science and create “fake-science” so as to deceive people.

My own position is that I accept what the climate scientists say, knowing they are reticent in their claims and it might be worse than what they say, and also knowing that there is a less than 5% chance they are wrong.

While I do sincerely hope they are wrong (it would be really great if they were wrong), I behave and act as if they are right, and mitigate ACC to the best of my ability. And I’ve found to our surprise it is saving us a lot of money, without reducing living standards, while we have now reduced our GHGs by more than 60% below our 1990 emissions. I’m not even counting the fact that we have been living within 1 or 2 miles of work, which we have been doing for the past 43 years to save finite resources for future generations (which also helps mitigate ACC), bec that was initially done for a different reason.

Since JPII, BXVI, and the US Catholic bishops agree with that position of prudence (as I’m sure Pope Francis does too, who has background in chemistry and would have ability to understand that greenhouse gas molecules absorb and emit radiation within the thermal infrared range see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas ) – that ACC is a serious problem and it is everyone’s responsibility to mitigate it (even if one is not totally sold on the science) – it’s extremely hard for me to understand why so many Catholics should be skeptics and denialists at this point in the process, 18 years after science reached 95% confidence on ACC (.05 on the null). I do understand that our media, educational system, and gov have been pretty much complicit in this denialism over the decades, but that’s not a complete excuse.

It seems the skeptics and denialists neither want to reduce their risk of harming others (they do not even want to countenance the idea that maybe there is a 50%, even a 10% chance the scientists are correct) nor collect on the great financial savings to be had by mitigating. I guess that could be called “super-denialism” and abuse of science by totalling ignoring the science & its implications, and fishing for whatever fake-science the well-oiled denialist industry spews out that they can find to justify their position. It is totally flabberghasting to me. God gave us brains and a heart, and hope of salvation (and nothing, not even death, to fear), and we should not be afraid to use these faculties and graces and seek out the real truth on matters.

I’d thought back in 1990 that all I had to do was mitigate ACC to the best of our ability (my husband didn’t want to sacrifice, so we’ve done it without sacrificing our lifestyle), and then inform a few others about the problem and great savings in mitigating it, and they’d inform others until the whole world would be mitigating. And I could within a few months get back to my regularly scheduled life. It has been a rude awakening over 23 years of how obstinately opposed to reducing the risk of harm the world really is, even among front-pewers in my own church. After years of banging my head against this brick wall of derelict obstinance, I had decided to just keep quiet on the issue & just live in sorrow holding Our Lady in my heart that my pitiful efforts without those of most other people would not amount to much help. We don’t have children, so it was no skin off my personal nose if the world was determined to wipe out much, perhaps all, of life on earth over the next 100s, 1000s or 100,000 years. Then the reading in Mass that exact same week was, if you know your brother is doing some sin and you fail to inform him, the sin falls back on you.

So in my old age until my very last breath I will continue to bang my head against this brick wall of obstinate resistance and inform people that ACC is real and dangerous to life, and mitigating it will greatly benefit one and the world.

Sorry if I’m a bother to people here. I have to do it. As a Christian, I have no choice.
There is already a thread on Antromorphic Climate Change. I certainly disagree with your position. :banghead::banghead::banghead: Linus2nd
 
First, let me start by saying that I believe in both science and Catholicism. I also believe that they are compatible as long as each stays in the realm it should.
To me, when science tries to prove whether or not there is a God that created the universe, that is a problem. This is something that religion tells us, not science.
On the same token, when religion tries to prove how God created the universe, this is also a problem. This is something that science tells us, not religion.
And just where does religion tell us " how God created the universe " ?
Religion tells us that God created the universe and science tells us that He did it via the Big Bang. I believe that God wants us to discover these things and that is one of the reasons that He gave us the intellectual ability to do so. It helps us to get to know and understand Him better
The " Big Bang, " so called, is a scientific theory, not a scientific fact.
Where I see science bashing on these boards is when people try to deny the Big Bang based on Genesis
And who does that? If it does happen, that is not an example of religion telling us " how God created the world. " That is an example of someone expressing their own interpretation of what Genesis says.
When we deny scientific findings, or label science as gibberish, etc, that is science bashing.
Now here you are getting into a problem because I know where you found " or label science as gibberish." When you demand the right to missinterpret what someone has said you cannot claim to be a lover of science or of truth of any kind. When you do this you are behaving more like a propagandist touting one’s own agenda. You can’t do that and claim to be an objective observer.
The problem with it is that you have people who are living with their head in the sand, and are not experiencing the wonder that comes from realizing the amazing mechanics that God used to create our world. While it is wondrous to think of God creating all of this, it is more wondrous when one has an understanding of the incredible mechanics that it took to make it happen. The human mind simply is not capable of planning creation. We can only observe what was created and how and look at it in awe.
You seem to have a penchant for rash judgment. Also, the wonders of the universe are open to the learned and unlearned at the same time. Who said anything about " the human mind …planning creation? " What in the world are you talking about?

Linus2nd
 
Check under the philosophy forum. It may be under the title of " Climate Change. " It my have been in another forum, folks often place their threads in the improper forum. I noticed it a few weeks ago. Linus2nd
 
Science bashing is foolhardy and wrong. It can get out of hand though. With anything important, you have to be careful…
 
And just where does religion tell us " how God created the universe " ?

The " Big Bang, " so called, is a scientific theory, not a scientific fact.

And who does that? If it does happen, that is not an example of religion telling us " how God created the world. " That is an example of someone expressing their own interpretation of what Genesis says.

Now here you are getting into a problem because I know where you found " or label science as gibberish." When you demand the right to missinterpret what someone has said you cannot claim to be a lover of science or of truth of any kind. When you do this you are behaving more like a propagandist touting one’s own agenda. You can’t do that and claim to be an objective observer.

You seem to have a penchant for rash judgment. Also, the wonders of the universe are open to the learned and unlearned at the same time. Who said anything about " the human mind …planning creation? " What in the world are you talking about?

Linus2nd
You have clearly misunderstood all of the points that I was attempting to make, so I am not going to go into deep detail on them.

I did want to make one clarification though, many people seem to misunderstand what theory means in science. Theory in science does not mean it is simply a guess or thought, it means that something is as close to proven as it is likely to get. Gravity is a scientific theory, does someone want to state that it is not fact?
 
. . . Theory in science does not mean it is simply a guess or thought, it means that something is as close to proven as it is likely to get. Gravity is a scientific theory, does someone want to state that it is not fact?
actually, gravity is not a theory.
The idea of space bending around objects that have mass and this causing them to come together would be the theory.
Theories are ways of understanding what is happening.
Generally the dispute is not over the phenomena but rather the explanation.
eg: The theory of evolution states that random changes in genetic material have resulted in the diversity of life we observe. I do not hold to this view. There were dinosaurs, the earth has changed over billions of years, but I understand this as the work of God’s hand. The earth has bloomed as opposed to evolved.
 
You have clearly misunderstood all of the points that I was attempting to make, so I am not going to go into deep detail on them.

I did want to make one clarification though, many people seem to misunderstand what theory means in science. Theory in science does not mean it is simply a guess or thought, it means that something is as close to proven as it is likely to get. Gravity is a scientific theory, does someone want to state that it is not fact?
What was the overall scientific level at the time the E theory was declared? Surgeons were operating by the book, without washing their hands.
Do not compare E with gravity because there is not one example of proven evolved creature. Adaptation to environment, yes, but you wouldn’t say that a chihuahua evolved into a german dog because you know they can change in one another; but only from their bones, what a STORY can you make…
Catholic Church in her wisdom permitted us to look back in the past throgh the lenses of natural law, AS WE KNOW THEM NOW, which we do not forget them many times presented us a very distorted view, but no more than that, Adam and Eve were the first 2 real persons and they have fallen in sin.
 
You have clearly misunderstood all of the points that I was attempting to make, so I am not going to go into deep detail on them.

I did want to make one clarification though, many people seem to misunderstand what theory means in science. Theory in science does not mean it is simply a guess or thought, it means that something is as close to proven as it is likely to get. Gravity is a scientific theory, does someone want to state that it is not fact?
No, you said exactly what you intended to say, you can’t squirm out of it now.

O.K, then, the " Big Bang " is just a " wild idea " like the eather. Linus2
 
actually, gravity is not a theory.
The idea of space bending around objects that have mass and this causing them to come together would be the theory.
Theories are ways of understanding what is happening.
Generally the dispute is not over the phenomena but rather the explanation.
eg: The theory of evolution states that random changes in genetic material have resulted in the diversity of life we observe. I do not hold to this view. There were dinosaurs, the earth has changed over billions of years, but I understand this as the work of God’s hand. The earth has bloomed as opposed to evolved.
I understand it as the work of God’s hand as well. The question that science should be trying to answer is not whether or not it was the work of God, but what method God used in doing the work. I believe that science has shown us that.
 
No, you said exactly what you intended to say, you can’t squirm out of it now.

O.K, then, the " Big Bang " is just a " wild idea " like the eather. Linus2
I never said that I didn’t say what I intended. I said that you did not understand what I said there is a difference.

The Big Bang is not just a wild idea, it is a scientific theory for which most evidence is supportive that shows the method God used in creating the universe.
 
I never said that I didn’t say what I intended. I said that you did not understand what I said there is a difference.

The Big Bang is not just a wild idea, it is a scientific theory for which most evidence is supportive that shows the method God used in creating the universe.
I interpreted you correctly unless words don’t mean anything. Linus2nd
 
I interpreted you correctly unless words don’t mean anything. Linus2nd
Ok, so lets go through it.
And just where does religion tell us " how God created the universe " ?
It doesn’t and I didn’t say that it did. I said that it trying to is a problem. There are those that try to use religion to explain this and I find it to be a problem.
The " Big Bang, " so called, is a scientific theory, not a scientific fact.
I already addressed this in an earlier post.
And who does that? If it does happen, that is not an example of religion telling us " how God created the world. " That is an example of someone expressing their own interpretation of what Genesis says.
It is an example of someone using their interpretation of religion to explain something that religion does not address for the sake of denying science.
Now here you are getting into a problem because I know where you found " or label science as gibberish." When you demand the right to missinterpret what someone has said you cannot claim to be a lover of science or of truth of any kind. When you do this you are behaving more like a propagandist touting one’s own agenda. You can’t do that and claim to be an objective observer.
No interpretation was needed. It was the title of the thread. If that was not what was meant a different wording should have been used.
You seem to have a penchant for rash judgment. Also, the wonders of the universe are open to the learned and unlearned at the same time. Who said anything about " the human mind …planning creation? " What in the world are you talking about?
The point was that when you DO understand the amazing mechanics behind the creation of everything and realize that no mortal mind could have planned these things, it creates MORE awe and MORE respect for God and how far above us He really is.
 
I understand it as the work of God’s hand as well. The question that science should be trying to answer is not whether or not it was the work of God, but what method God used in doing the work. I believe that science has shown us that.
You bring up interesting issues which I would like to clarify:

Science by creating tools that greatly expand our senses, has revealed aspects of the universe that were previously hidden. Electron microscopes give us a visual glimpse of that which lies below our visual capacities and satellite telescope, what is beyond.

It may sound like I am nit-picking but science does not show us the “method” God used. Science assumes randomness and no other causes than those being investigated. It shows what did happen, not how, imho.

Science provides explanations are never final because our knowledge is always growing; they actually evolve and are only as good as the latest research.

These explanations are of a world which we can imagine as lying outside of us. God which lies within us, within and outside creation cannot be understood scientifically.

The universe as well, because we are a part of it, also cannot be known, imho. The best we can do is describe and understand it in terms of our frame of reference. For example, the images that have been developed showing the background radiation from the Big Bang are simply that: images. What they seem to show is not really out there on the rim of the universe, as the walls of the room are around you. There is actually no rim, no edge, no boundary, and for all intents and purposes, the universe is infinite. This is as much illusion as is the blue vault that you see when you step outside on a clear day. If you begin to think of time as it relates to the universe, things get equally bizarre; outside an eternal now, there is no “now”. Considering all the events taking place within the universe, they cannot be said to occur simultaneously, except in that Now that includes all events at all times.

Science, in revealing the nature of creation, should be pointing to God, the Source. The sense of mystery and awe that accompanies the understanding of the nature and workings of the universe in modern secular society is attributed to the creation and not the Creator to whom it belongs. There is a sense that ppl are worshipping an idol and that Scientism is that religion.
 
I understand it as the work of God’s hand as well. The question that science should be trying to answer is not whether or not it was the work of God, but what method God used in doing the work. I believe that science has shown us that.
Look, I want to agree with you. If science had actually proven that, don’t you think the newspapers would be screaming about it. So it must not be so obvious, it is not a proven scientific fact. It seems likely that is all I would admit to. At any rate Fr. Spitzer would definitely agree with you and he has other scientists who support his thesis. Linus2nd
 
No interpretation was needed. It was the title of the thread. If that was not what was meant a different wording should have been used.

I will grant your other points but not this. This was a simple case of rash judgment. If you judge every book or article by the title, literally interpreted you will be wrong a great deal of the time. Reading through the post and the posts which followed ( and you didn’t come into the debate until the 98th post) you could not have believed that I was labeling science as phony. In the O.P. I specifically mentioned " pseudo science, " later on I said I had in mind specifically the current stances taken by certain scientests and others using pseudo science to champion ideas which threatend or were opposed to Catholic teaching.

You simply chose to put a bad light O.P. to advance your own agenda and your weren’t shy about doctoring the truth. You deliberately determined to paint a black picture, and you weren’t alone. So much for the truth. And guess what, becuause of the way some acted the thread has been closed. For their lack of charity, I would like to thank those folks. It was a very clever and uncharitable operation. Linus2nd
 
I’d prefer not to discuss banned topics like evolution…
Are you serious? Is evolution banned from CAF?

It’s a good thing the popes have all accepted it since the 1970s or so, otherwise I would not have converted.

As JPII said, Truth cannot deny truth. That goes for the rest of science, as well, even though science puts forth only provisional “truths,” that could be changed with better evidence and theories. It behooves us as Christians, who champion truth, to respect science (while understanding its limitations).

Think of creation as another Bible written directly by God. The scientists then are its exegetical specialists. In a way science is a holy pursuit. And science arose out of Christianity.
 
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