Science can't destroy Religion

[inocente]

Most dictionaries that I have looked at (Merriam Webster, Oxford, etc) state that theism is the “belief in the existence of a god or gods.” Most do say, “specifically, the belief in one god as creator of the universe” which still does not beg for the ‘God of traditional religion’ as you put it.

What I was thinking is that if I understand Einstein’s view correctly, his god is very different from the God of the Abrahamic religions, his god has no involvement in our lives and isn’t even necessarily aware that humans exist.

It would be near impossible to construct an organized religion around that - if god doesn’t care about us then the god can’t be pressed into service in favor of any particular morality, god would never be on anyone’s side, there would be no narrative.

And, being an astrophysicist who deals regularly with theoretical physicists of all sorts (condensed matter, classical, quantum, etc), I hope I can convince you that ‘most’ is the wrong modifier; ‘many’ is the more appropriate one.

It’s a bit unfair for me to clump them together, but my impression is that while they are less likely to believe in an organized religion, they are more likely to form their own individual spirituality, which they may or may not be inclined or able to express.

 

[anrmenchaca47]

I really appreciate the invite

Prove to me your God exists, and I’ll be over there in a heartbeat.

Trouble is, you can’t. No one can. No more than I can prove He doesn’t exist.

But the evidence suggests my position is sound.

Meanwhile, the weather is glorious here, and the waters clear, clean and cold, and well, life is good

Sarah x

I’m just wondering here?..Why do you need this “evidence?” Why can’t you just simply believe even though you can’t see(i.e.; evidence)?

Also, you say that we have no soul right? What brought up this conlcusion? I mean, I could not begin to fathom , as much as I am fully alive, aware, perceptive in all aspects,the possibility of our life being turned off permanently( being a very emotional and perceptive individual myself) when it comes to our expiration date. I mean that seems like a dismal outlook knowing that your going to die and all that you ever were, in this world, will be erased as if it never existed…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I’m just wondering here?..Why do you need this “evidence?” Why can’t you just simply believe even though you can’t see(i.e.; evidence)?

While I can’t speak for her this is something on which I would like to comment. To me it appears that being convinced of something isn’t something that is purely volitional. I can provisionally act as though I think that something is true but I can’t say that I’ve ever had the ability that I’ve heard some others describe of holding a belief by volition. Belief from conviction seems to be influence by a variety of sources (depending on the belief in question and the experiences, memories, and other held beliefs of the person being examined). While I can by volition engage in activities to acquire or strengthen a belief whether or not that is the actual outcome of the actions isn’t guaranteed. I’ve tried this and have failed at it before.

I mean that seems like a dismal outlook knowing that your going to die and all that you ever were, in this world, will be erased as if it never existed…

I can see how some one would come to come to that conclusion about what another thinks. And there certainly are some that feel that way. Pondering over the consequences of finite and eternal existence certainly can influence one’s feelings about the outcome (and there are both potentially positive and negative consequences for both the propositions that one may never meet and end or will always exists) but feelings on those consequences don’t, at least as far as I can see, have any impact whether or not there is life after death in much the same way that me thinking about having a high or low balance in my checking account right now won’t impact the actual balance at this moment.

Supposing that one concludes that continuing to have consciousness after death is the most desirable outcome does that actually impact the outcome?

 

[atheistgirl]

Why can’t you just simply believe even though you can’t see(i.e.; evidence)?

I guess I’m just not that kind of person, when it comes to religious claims and the existence of a Deity.

I mean that seems like a dismal outlook knowing that your going to die and all that you ever were, in this world, will be erased as if it never existed…

It’s hard to explain this in a few words, and I’m aware it can sound ‘wrong’ just reading words on a screen rather than picking up tone and so on, but, I see nothing dismal about death at all. I love life, and death is part of it, this is how I see it.

Everything must die, to make room for the next.

That’s natures way.

I am a part of nature.

If nothing died, the earth would have been extinct eons ago.

I see death as part of life and living. My life wouldn’t be normal, or real, if death wasn’t part of it, because it wouldn’t be natural.

I see no evidence for anything, other than what exists in nature.

Death is part of that.

As for being erased

My children, painting, poetry, businesses, and the little good that I’ve done and the lives I’ve touched and will remember me, are all the testimony I need

My children carry my genes

It’s all good.

Sarah x

 

[buffalo]

Errr … the quote isn’t from him, it’s an advertizing blurb for a book not yet even published. I suggest that rather than debating what we think he might argue in the book, it would be better to wait until the book is published and then those who are interested can tell the rest of us what he actually wrote.

And of course, we’ll try to sound interested.

As you failed to reply to post #518, I take it you agree that the article you linked was a fiction from start to end.

It is the book description - take it up with Amazon.

 

[PRmerger]

To me it appears that being convinced of something isn’t something that is purely volitional.

I think if you’ve ever been married, TS, then you might consider that marriage is a great example of not being fully convinced of something, but rather it was/is a volitional choice on your part.

Do you not see how that could be?

IOW: you have convinced yourself, by an act of volition, that you and your spouse are capable of spending a lifetime together with each other. For, truly, there’s absolutely NO WAY that you could ever have enough evidence to be “convinced” that you and your spouse can be fully committed to each other…yet you have decided to go for it, right?

(And if you’re not married, I’m certain you can extrapolate the above to a possible scenario.)

 

[atheistgirl]

Pondering over the consequences of finite and eternal existence certainly can influence one’s feelings about the outcome (and there are both potentially positive and negative consequences for both the propositions that one may never meet and end or will always exists) but feelings on those consequences don’t, at least as far as I can see, have any impact whether or not there is life after death in much the same way that me thinking about having a high or low balance in my checking account right now won’t impact the actual balance at this moment.after death is the most desirable outcome does that actually impact the outcome?

I find the thought to be the stuff of nightmares. To go on and on and on, without end, with no purpose, is a truely horrific thought to me.

Sarah x

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I find the thought to be the stuff of nightmares. To go on and on and on, without end, with no purpose, is a truely horrific thought to me.

Sarah x

I personally don’t have a desire to live forever either.

 

[Lochias]

I find the thought to be the stuff of nightmares. To go on and on and on, without end, with no purpose, is a truely horrific thought to me.

Sarah x

What makes you think there’s no purpose in Heaven?

 

[atheistgirl]

What makes you think there’s no purpose in Heaven?

My understanding is in heaven everyone will worship God for ever and ever.

I fully respect this may be the ultimare aim for a Christian, or any one else who believes in a Deity, but that is not a ‘‘purpose’’ to me.

Sarah x

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I think if you’ve ever been married, TS, then you might consider that marriage is a great example of not being fully convinced of something, but rather it was/is a volitional choice on your part.

Well as I mentioned before I’m capable of acting as though something is true. Being able to follow through with the motions of something isn’t something that I was questioning. It was the acquisition of the conviction that I was focused on. The question to which I responded is “Why can’t you just simply believe even though you can’t see(i.e.; evidence)?” Short of digging into some of the psychology of belief I was pointing out that this isn’t something that can necessarily be done by volition.

If I really wanted to I could follow through with the motions and actions that suggest that I was a Christian. That’s not the same as believing the propositions of Christianity though. Because of a self imposed honestly constraint I wouldn’t want to follow through the motions since to me it would feel like I was deceiving those around me; (while I might find deceptions acceptable under certain circumstances such as to some one that wished to do some one else serious harm its something I prefer to avoid). One more comment on this in a moment…

IIOW: you have convinced yourself, by an act of volition, that you and your spouse are capable of spending a lifetime together with each other.

Actually conviction is not necessarily a part of two people getting married. While the requirements vary by region at minimum it can entail two people declaring themselves as married. This can be done with feelings of conviction, doubt, and even some amount of feelings of repulsion. Through the course of the marriage one may become convicted that he or she made the right decision, develop doubts, or develop a conviction that he or she made a horrible decision. Similarly at one point I used to be a Christian. By volition I decided to evaluate why I remained one. My expectation is that I would galvanize my stance. The outcome was completely contrary to my expectation and my desire. (this is what I was thinking about when I mentioned “tried and failed before”).

I For, truly, there’s absolutely NO WAY that you could ever have enough evidence to be “convinced” that you and your spouse can be fully committed to each other…yet you have decided to go for it, right?

On the contrary. There are some that have this feeling. Conviction can be motivated by evidence, emotion, or a number of other factors. I think what you may be touching on is some form of absolute knowledge which is not quite the same as conviction. Conviction doesn’t require absolute knowledge and can be quite contrary to the sate of things. Regardless of how some one feels initially it’s possible that the outcome won’t line up with the expectation. But that’s getting into another topic.

 

[buffalo]

My understanding is in heaven everyone will worship God for ever and ever.

I fully respect this may be the ultimare aim for a Christian, or any one else who believes in a Deity, but that is not a ‘‘purpose’’ to me.

Sarah x

**1045 **For man, this consummation will be the final realization of the unity of the human race, which God willed from creation and of which the pilgrim Church has been “in the nature of sacrament.” Those who are united with Christ will form the community of the redeemed, “the holy city” of God, “the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” She will not be wounded any longer by sin, stains, self-love, that destroy or wound the earthly community. The beatific vision, in which God opens himself in an inexhaustible way to the elect, will be the ever-flowing well-spring of happiness, peace, and mutual communion.

 

[buffalo]

**1028 **Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision”:
How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God’s friends.

 

[Lochias]

My understanding is in heaven everyone will worship God for ever and ever.

I fully respect this may be the ultimare aim for a Christian, or any one else who believes in a Deity, but that is not a ‘‘purpose’’ to me.

Sarah x

I’d posit that this is an extremely overly-simplistic view of things, colored by your earthly considerations of “worship”.



Even so, one cannot say that there’s no purpose to being in Heaven. It would be a falsehood. We will understand happiness in a way that isn’t possible here.

 

[atheistgirl]

I’d posit that this is an extremely overly-simplistic view of things, colored by your earthly considerations of “worship”.

Can’t argue with that my friend, but it’s all I’ve got to work with.

Even so, one cannot say that there’s no purpose to being in Heaven. It would be a falsehood. We will understand happiness in a way that isn’t possible here.

I understand, appreciate and respect this is what many believe, but try as I might, it continues to make no sense to me.

Sarah x

 

[Lochias]

Can’t argue with that my friend, but it’s all I’ve got to work with.

Now, now…with as much conversation as you have on these boards alone, I don’t really think this flies. One can always educate themselves further on something they don’t a whole lot about yet.

I understand, appreciate and respect this is what many believe, but try as I might, it continues to make no sense to me.

Sarah x

There are a lot of things that don’t make sense, but that work or function regardless. Gravity, anyone? It all depends on what one is willing or not to believe, methinks.

 

[atheistgirl]

Now, now…with as much conversation as you have on these boards alone, I don’t really think this flies. One can always educate themselves further on something they don’t a whole lot about yet.

Oh come on, cut me some slack here, I’m doing my best

I have to be honest and say, despite all the reading, reflecting, conversations here and elsewhere, and, as best as I can and with as open a mind as I can possibly have, I have yet to be convinced of a single claim for the supernatural.

But I’m still fascinated with the discussions, so continue to be involved

There are a lot of things that don’t make sense, but that work or function regardless. Gravity, anyone? It all depends on what one is willing or not to believe, methinks.

Oh, when you’re holding something that’s $3400, and very delicate, and the one thing you must not do, is drop it, and you drop it, gravity makes perfect sense

It’s also expensive

Sarah x

 

[Lochias]

Oh come on, cut me some slack here, I’m doing my best

I have to be honest and say, despite all the reading, reflecting, conversations here and elsewhere, and, as best as I can and with as open a mind as I can possibly have, I have yet to be convinced of a single claim for the supernatural.

But I’m still fascinated with the discussions, so continue to be involved

Heh, I know you are. What I meant is, despite what you are convinced of, your comment of “I’m working with what I’ve got here” concerning the nature of Catholic belief in Heaven doesn’t cut it, 'cause you admitted that you were going on an overly-simple and extreme generality.

Oh, when you’re holding something that’s $3400, and very delicate, and the one thing you must not do, is drop it, and you drop it, gravity makes perfect sense

It’s also expensive

Nah, that’s not gravity making sense, that’s Murphy’s Law kicking you in the hindquarters. :crying: What did you drop that was $3400??? Makes me ill just to think about it…

 

[atheistgirl]

'cause you admitted that you were going on an overly-simple and extreme generality.

True, but I tend to be very pragmatic and realistic, and, yes, simplistic at times. I sometimes tell people I’ll fire them if they can’t tell me in two sentences that make perfect sense what the heck they’re talking about

Nah, that’s not gravity making sense, that’s Murphy’s Law kicking you in the hindquarters. :crying: What did you drop that was $3400??? Makes me ill just to think about it…

A glass sculpture.

It’s now got pride of place in one of the guest bedrooms. I like to tell people it’s priceless. Because, it literally is now

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

Actually conviction is not necessarily a part of two people getting married.

Right. It doesn’t necessarily follow from a desire to be married.

While the requirements vary by region at minimum it can entail two people declaring themselves as married. This can be done with feelings of conviction, doubt, and even some amount of feelings of repulsion.

Sure.

Through the course of the marriage one may become convicted that he or she made the right decision, develop doubts, or develop a conviction that he or she made a horrible decision

'zactly.

Similarly at one point I used to be a Christian. By volition I decided to evaluate why I remained one. My expectation is that I would galvanize my stance. The outcome was completely contrary to my expectation and my desire. (this is what I was thinking about when I mentioned “tried and failed before”).

Ok.

On the contrary. There are some that have this feeling.

That’s what I’m saying, TS. There are a zillion folks, atheists included, who leap into marriage with lots of less evidence for any long lasting love than they demand for the evidence for God.

Why is there such a peculiar double standard?

You (a generalized “you” here) will take a leap in the dark with a “conviction” that you will remain committed to another person for the duration of your life, with not any empirical evidence, lab-tested demonstrable evidence for love…yet you demand exquisitely higher evidence for the existence of God.

In fact, that atheists marry, contrary to the evidence that their marriage is going to fail 46% of the time, gives one pause about how much stock they actually put into “evidence”.