Science can't destroy Religion

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I couldn’t possibly investigate all the claims of miracles made by Christians - I will never live long enough!
Don’t forget the Miracle of Fatima, incorruptible corpses (at least a couple dozen), eyewitnesses to Padre Pio’s manifested stigmata, and many more. No stone unturned!
I’ve not looked at incorruptable corpses in any detail, but I have the claims of the dancing Sun and the stigmata of Padre Pio.

Neither are credible - in the least.

In fact, I’ve linked previously in other posts to documentation - by Catholics - that seriously undermine any claims of a real stigmata.
(Unless you are willing to shore up your disbelief on one account that may be debunked. In that case, I can only applaud a sense of faith that many Catholics do not have!)
Nope.

You can throw miracles at me all day long.

But the ones I’ve looked at so far are not credible.

Other I will look at in the future may not be explicable for now given our current state of knowledge and what we know about biology and physics and the behavior of elements in there.

But if something is not explicable, that’s not a reason, for me, to next claim it must be a miracle.

It just means it’s inexplicable. Not a miracle.

Even the process of Sainthood in relation to miracles is problematic.

One of the requirements is that a claim for a cure must be permanent. There is simply no way to know the cure is permanent until after the persons death, and on examination the cause of death can not in any way be related to the illness that was miraculously cured.

Yet the Church doesn’t wait for this to happen before accepting a cure as a miracle 🤷
Get on it, Bones. There are months and months to debunk them all…let’s go!
Let’s be clear, I have a family to bring up, a husband to shower with love and attention 😉 a business to run, activistism on the envirnoment and political fronts and the work I do voluntarily with others and the projects we run for kids and young adults.

This is a mildly interesting diversion when time allows, from which I continue to learn, and currently, have the position I’ve taken in relation to a personal loving interventionist God confirmed 😃

Sarah x 🙂
 
There can also be good and bad religion, and it isn’t good religion to get taken in by charlatans. This particular story seems to change every time Castañón tells it. If it were true the tissue would contain the DNA of Christ, which would be of incredible importance and value, yet supposedly the Cardinal casually gives it to Castañon, who has no expertise, and neither the local Church or Vatican have said anything about it. :rolleyes:

I’d hope that as the world becomes better educated, fewer and fewer will get taken in by faux miracle tales. There’s a chance that good science can destroy bad religion, leaving just the good stuff remaining.
Some excellent observations in this post 👍

Sarah x 🙂
 
There can also be good and bad religion, and it isn’t good religion to get taken in by charlatans. This particular story seems to change every time Castañón tells it. If it were true the tissue would contain the DNA of Christ, which would be of incredible importance and value, yet supposedly the Cardinal casually gives it to Castañon, who has no expertise, and neither the local Church or Vatican have said anything about it. :rolleyes:
Whether or not the miracle really happened, that’s one out of many. Charlatans exist in all walks of life, and the Church is as vigilant at rooting them out as others are out of their own folds.
I’d hope that as the world becomes better educated, fewer and fewer will get taken in by faux miracle tales. There’s a chance that good science can destroy bad religion, leaving just the good stuff remaining.
Indeed. Catholics of years past help to develop the good science we have now, so it’s only natural that this statement goes hand-in-hand with the Catholic Church.
 
I couldn’t possibly investigate all the claims of miracles made by Christians - I will never live long enough!

I’ve not looked at incorruptable corpses in any detail, but I have the claims of the dancing Sun and the stigmata of Padre Pio.

Neither are credible - in the least.

In fact, I’ve linked previously in other posts to documentation - by Catholics - that seriously undermine any claims of a real stigmata.

Nope.

You can throw miracles at me all day long.

But the ones I’ve looked at so far are not credible.

Other I will look at in the future may not be explicable for now given our current state of knowledge and what we know about biology and physics and the behavior of elements in there.

But if something is not explicable, that’s not a reason, for me, to next claim it must be a miracle.

It just means it’s inexplicable. Not a miracle.

Even the process of Sainthood in relation to miracles is problematic.

One of the requirements is that a claim for a cure must be permanent. There is simply no way to know the cure is permanent until after the persons death, and on examination the cause of death can not in any way be related to the illness that was miraculously cured.

Yet the Church doesn’t wait for this to happen before accepting a cure as a miracle 🤷

Let’s be clear, I have a family to bring up, a husband to shower with love and attention 😉 a business to run, activistism on the envirnoment and political fronts and the work I do voluntarily with others and the projects we run for kids and young adults.

This is a mildly interesting diversion when time allows, from which I continue to learn, and currently, have the position I’ve taken in relation to a personal loving interventionist God confirmed 😃

Sarah x 🙂
If you want to look at miracles that the Church has proclaimed look at the rigorous process she uses.

The Vatican Exhibit of Eucharistic Miracles!

List of Approved Lourdes Miracles

n 1859, Professor Vergez of the Faculty of Medicine at Montpellier was appointed to examine the cures. Seven cures were recorded before 1862 promoting the argument for the recognition of the Apparitions by Bishop Laurence. Over 5,000 cures have been documented at the waters of Lourdes. The Church has vigorously investigated and validated a mere 67 of them.http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian...paritions/lourdes/downloads/lourdes_cures.pdf
 
The Church has vigorously investigated and validated a mere 67 of them.
http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian...paritions/lourdes/downloads/lourdes_cures.pdf


In any of these, did the Church wait for people to die and conduct an autopsy by independent doctors to confirm the cause of death was in no way related to the ‘’ miraculously cured’’ illness or that there was no recurrence of the illness, considering some illnesses can be asymptomatic?

The Church doesn’t do this but without doing this, there is no way the Church can declare a cure to be permanent, yet it does, and accepts ‘‘miracles’’ on this basis.

I have a big problem with this aspect of declared miraculous cures.

Sarah x 🙂
 
In any of these, did the Church wait for people to die and conduct an autopsy by independent doctors to confirm the cause of death was in no way related to the ‘’ miraculously cured’’ illness or that there was no recurrence of the illness, considering some illnesses can be asymptomatic?

The Church doesn’t do this but without doing this, there is no way the Church can declare a cure to be permanent, yet it does, and accepts ‘‘miracles’’ on this basis.

I have a big problem with this aspect of declared miraculous cures.

Sarah x 🙂
Why would the Church need to create these kind of hoaxes in the first place? It’s certainly not for reasons of money. What else would it be?
 
In any of these, did the Church wait for people to die and conduct an autopsy by independent doctors to confirm the cause of death was in no way related to the ‘’ miraculously cured’’ illness or that there was no recurrence of the illness, considering some illnesses can be asymptomatic?

The Church doesn’t do this but without doing this, there is no way the Church can declare a cure to be permanent, yet it does, and accepts ‘‘miracles’’ on this basis.

I have a big problem with this aspect of declared miraculous cures.

Sarah x 🙂
Code: ZE04021108
Date: 2004-02-11
How Lourdes Cures Are Recognized as Miraculous
Doctors Scrutinize Each Case
LOURDES, France, FEB. 11, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Each year more than 6 million pilgrims visit
the Marian shrine at the town of Lourdes, renowned for its miracle cures. But who decides when a cure is a miracle?

The Catholic Church has officially recognized 67 miracles and some 7,000 inexplicable cures since the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared in Lourdes in February 1858, as attested in the book “The Doctor in the Face of Miracles” (“Il medico di fronte ai miracoli”), written by the Italian Doctors Association.
Dr. Patrick Thiellier, director of the medical office established at the shrine to scientifically examine alleged cases of healing, collaborated in the book.

In 1905, Pope Pius X asked that all cases of alleged miracles or cures recorded in Lourdes be analyzed scientifically.

At the shrine’s French-language Web page (www.lourdes-france.com) the medical office
explains that its objective is to be able to declare a cure “certain, definitive and medically inexplicable.”

To do so, it applies four criteria:
– “the fact and the diagnosis of the illness is first of all established and correctly diagnosed”;
– “the prognosis must be permanent or terminal in the short term”;
– “the cure is immediate, without convalescence, complete and lasting”;
– “the prescribed treatment could not be attributed to the cause of this cure or be an aid to it.”

The sick who come to Lourdes with a pilgrimage group are accompanied by a doctor who is furnished with a medical file describing their present condition. This file forms the basis from which to work when a pilgrim declares that he has been cured.
The file, and the pilgrim who claims to have been cured, are presented to the medical office. A doctor based there will then gather the members of the medical profession present in Lourdes on that day who wish to participate in the examination.

No definite conclusion is given at the end of this examination. The person who claims to have been cured will be invited to meet the medical commission the following year and possibly for many subsequent years.

Finally, after many successful examinations, the file of the cure will be sent, if three-quarters of the doctors present so wish, to the Lourdes International Medical Committee.


This second level of enquiry has existed since 1947. At first it was the Lourdes National
Medical Committee; in 1954 it took on the “International” name. The committee comprises 30 specialists, surgeons and professors or heads of department, from various countries, who meet once a year. The current president is professor Jean-Louis Armand-Laroche.

It allows an assessment to continue over several years in order to observe the development of the patient.


If the International Medical Committee gives a favorable opinion, the file is then sent to the competent Church authorities. When the file is sent to the bishop of the place where the cured person lives, the case is already recognized as extraordinary by science and medically inexplicable.

It remains for the Church, through the intermediary of the bishop, to make an announcement on the miraculous character of the cure.

To do this, the bishop gathers together a diocesan commission made up of priests, canonists and theologians. The rules that guide the procedures of this commission are those defined in 1734 by the future Pope Benedict XIV in his treatise “Concerning the Beatification and Canonization of Servants of God” (Book IV, Part I, Chapter VIII No. 2).
In sum, the rules demand that there must not be found in the cure any valid explanation, medical or scientific, natural or usual. This is the case for the cures that have taken place at Lourdes. Having established this, it remains for the diocesan commission to determine that the cure comes from God.

Furnished with conclusions reached by the commission, it is up to the bishop to make a definitive pronouncement and to suggest to his diocese and to the world that this cure is seen as a “sign from God.”
 
I’ve not looked at incorruptable corpses in any detail, but I have the claims of the dancing Sun .

Neither are credible - in the least.
What you are saying doesn’t really say anything about the miracle of the sun as much as it does about you.

I always find it interesting to see what level of evidence is credible to atheists, and considering 70,000 witnesses, people up to 30 miles away not involved witnessing it, and independent non Christian eye witness testimony. I’ve come to the conclusion that no evidence is credible, or acceptable. An impossible standard exists.

Unless atheists see it for themselves they don’t buy it… even with the stupendous amount of eyewitness testimony as there was in the miracle of the sun there is always some condition that needs to met apart from what was actually present. If 70,000 saw it, then why didn’t the whole world see it… if the whole world saw it why didn’t the hubble see it. Some people didn’t see it so that negates the experience of those who did see it, and on, and on, and on it rolls. If atheists have an impossibly high standard where no evidence is credible except what they see and can measure for themselves I honestly don’t know how they can believe anything any one tells them.

It is far from credulous to accept the existing eyewitness testimony at Fatima, in fact it is incredulous to reject it.
 
Code: ZE04021108
Date: 2004-02-11
How Lourdes Cures Are Recognized as Miraculous
Doctors Scrutinize Each Case
LOURDES, France, FEB. 11, 2004 (Zenit.org).- Each year more than 6 million pilgrims visit
the Marian shrine at the town of Lourdes, renowned for its miracle cures. But who decides when a cure is a miracle?

– “the cure is immediate, without convalescence, complete and lasting”;

It allows an assessment to continue over several years in order to observe the development of the patient.
Exactly.

It must be complete and lasting.

And the only way to determine this is to wait until the person is dead and an autopsy determines the cause of death has nothing to do with the illness which could, as I said, be asymptomatic.

But the Church doesn’t do this. 🤷

It has declared a miracle attributable to John Paul II the cure of the nun I referenced in another post.

What if another nun is ‘‘cured’’ by praying to him?

That’s two miracles right?

So he’s declared a Saint.

Now what happens if both nuns have a relapse when they’re in their 90’s and JP II has been a Saint for the 40 years by then?

Is he unsainted?

I think the process is flawed, for that very reason, like the Church cares what I think :D:D:D

Sarah x 🙂
 
What you are saying doesn’t really say anything about the miracle of the sun as much as it does about you.
What it says about me is until astronomers and cosmologists confirm they have data indicating the Sun did change course that day, I don’t believe it.

It’s not credible, simply because were the Sun to come racing towards the earth and dance in the sky, the effects on the earth would be catastrophic.

Which they weren’t.

So it didn’t happen 🤷
I’ve come to the conclusion that no evidence is credible, or acceptable. An impossible standard exists.
Nope. While the stories of the claims of those that were there are interesting, I’ll listen to the experts, and since all of them missed this cosmological event, and we don’t see the consequences of such an event, it’s fair to say it didn’t happen.

To me anyhow.
Some people didn’t see it so that negates the experience of those who did see it, and on, and on, and on it rolls.
Not just some people, every scientifically developed piece of equipment trained to pick up these things, the consequential effects of such an event on the earth and every scientifically trained expert in the field also missed it.

That’s enough for me to say it simply didn’t happen.

Mass hysteria and mass hypnosis does happen though and it’s a mental process we are familiar with.
It is far from credulous to accept the existing eyewitness testimony at Fatima, in fact it is incredulous to reject it.
Not to me. I find the claims incredulous.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Why would the Church need to create these kind of hoaxes in the first place? It’s certainly not for reasons of money. What else would it be?
My personal opinion is the Church doesn’t create these hoaxes.

People of faith do, for whatever misguided or piously fraudulent reasons and the Church is quite happen to play along even if it’s patently unbelievable, if it brings people into the faith, or helps them grow deeper in their faith.

It can also bring in a lot, a lot, of $.

I’m not aware of a single place of pilgramage or where a miracle occured where businesses haven’t blossomed.

Now, you asked me the question and this is my opinion.

I am not saying this is actually why the Church doesn’t jump all over guys like Ricardo Castañón Gomez who to me is patently a fraudster and of the same ilk as those guys on God TV like Benny Hinn and Creflo Dollar.

But to me, it doesn’t sit well.

Sarah x 🙂
 
I always find it interesting to see what level of evidence is credible to atheists, and considering 70,000 witnesses, people up to 30 miles away not involved witnessing it, and independent non Christian eye witness testimony. I’ve come to the conclusion that no evidence is credible, or acceptable. An impossible standard exists.
Truer words were never proclaimed on this forum regarding atheists! 👍

For some reason, the standard for all things religious is peculiarly high.
-I want reproducible, scientifically verifiable empirical data that has been published in 3 journals with replicated experiments in 24 different labs in order to even consider that God may have risen from the dead.

Yet for all *other *things in their life–such as trusting their very life to the hands of a **complete stranger **(i.e. flying on an aircraft miles above the earth with a pilot I’ve never met, nor even verified if he passed his final physics exam)…
-not so much. Atheist Me will just have faith that the pilot knows what he’s doing.

Curiouser and curiouser. :hmmm:
 
Truer words were never proclaimed on this forum regarding atheists! 👍

For some reason, the standard for all things religious is peculiarly high.
-I want reproducible, scientifically verifiable empirical data that has been published in 3 journals with replicated experiments in 24 different labs in order to even consider that God may have risen from the dead.

Yet for all *other *things in their life–such as trusting their very life to the hands of a **complete stranger **(i.e. flying on an aircraft miles above the earth with a pilot I’ve never met, nor even verified if he passed his final physics exam)…
-not so much. Atheist Me will just have faith that the pilot knows what he’s doing.

Curiouser and curiouser. :hmmm:
It all comes down to the fact that most atheists simply want to do what they want without any disapproval, ever. Placing their lives in an unknown stranger’s hands during a flight, or watching science while it can’t even tell us why we sleep or how many planets there actually are aren’t moral issues.

They’re having their cake, eating it too, and saving room for dessert in between pieces of cake they’re eating and having.
 
It all comes down to the fact that most atheists simply want to do what they want without any disapproval, ever.
Huh 🤷

Have a look at the figures for faith in the prison population.

Or are you going to bring up the no true Scotsman argument 😃
Placing their lives in an unknown stranger’s hands during a flight, or watching science while it can’t even tell us why we sleep or how many planets there actually are aren’t moral issues.
Yeah, it’s not a moral issue. Just a silly comparison that gets sillier every time it’s wheeled out.
They’re having their cake, eating it too, and saving room for dessert in between pieces of cake they’re eating and having.
🤷

In what sense are atheists able to do whatever they feel like doing without any repercussions in this society?

Sarah x 🙂
 
In what sense are atheists able to do whatever they feel like doing without any repercussions in this society?
I have wondered the same thing. Between working in a hierarchical company and living in a country with multiple levels of government I am not sure how some one could sustainably do what they feel like. To escape possible consequences from others for unrestrained behavior one would need to remove themselves from their society. The pathway to that life would be self imposed exile, not atheism. Though even in isolation one is not free of the consequences of their own actions and being removed from that society is enough to bring about consequences.
 
The Miracle of the Sun was a localized event experienced by people at the scene and not a worldwide one or one demonstrable by science in that way. I firmly believe this is something God can do if God so chooses. I believe it because of the accounts of it and through faith. To try to prove it is pointless. If God spoke loudly to everyone on Earth simultaneously, people would likely believe but they would do so out of fear and not love and there isn’t much free will in that. Science gives us an understanding of laws that apply to this world of God’s and that is beautiful and part of why I love science but it is a language that cannot define God - making it a perfect religion or dogma for atheists. Besides, the nature of contrarian positions in an argument is often such that anyone could rather easily deny that just about any historical event ever actually took place. I know that love exists and science may show formulas for the chemical reactions that take place in the brain and psychologists can identify typical behavioral patterns but that tells me almost nothing about it compared to a few lines of poetry by Keats where what is expressed comes together to transcend the ink, the paper and even the meaning of the individual words or anything you can point to. By opening the door with the slightest amount of faith, I can find God…right where He always was.
 
The Miracle of the Sun was a localized event experienced by people at the scene and not a worldwide one or one demonstrable by science in that way.
Well, it had to be, since observatories around the world reported nothing unusual.

Stare at the sun (!!!don’t, you’ll damage your eyesight!!!) but if you did, you’ll notice a couple of things happening - the eye will strain and you’ll get the effect of the sun ‘‘dancing’’ as your eye struggles to focus, protect itself, refocus and so on.

Critics have highlighted that eye witness accounts contradict each other, which makes sense of course since each persons ability to stare at the sun, and it’s effects on that persons eyes, wille be different, but they will all experience some sort of optical event and the eyes struggle.

And of course, just about everyone there was predisposed to believing a miracle was about to happen, so were looking for one.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Huh 🤷

Have a look at the figures for faith in the prison population.

Or are you going to bring up the no true Scotsman argument 😃
Not familiar with the no true Scotsman. Faith is easier to find when trust in the world is shattered by our own doing or through no fault of our own, however.

Trusting in the world is a good way to get burned, sooner or later. 🤷
Yeah, it’s not a moral issue. Just a silly comparison that gets sillier every time it’s wheeled out.
Sillier to you, with all due respect. I see it as a tired, creaking double standard on which many tired, creaking atheist arguments currently reside.

🤷
In what sense are atheists able to do whatever they feel like doing without any repercussions in this society?
Murdering the unborn is a good place to start.
 
Well, it had to be, since observatories around the world reported nothing unusual.

Stare at the sun (!!!don’t, you’ll damage your eyesight!!!) but if you did, you’ll notice a couple of things happening - the eye will strain and you’ll get the effect of the sun ‘‘dancing’’ as your eye struggles to focus, protect itself, refocus and so on.

Critics have highlighted that eye witness accounts contradict each other, which makes sense of course since each persons ability to stare at the sun, and it’s effects on that persons eyes, wille be different, but they will all experience some sort of optical event and the eyes struggle.

And of course, just about everyone there was predisposed to believing a miracle was about to happen, so were looking for one.

Sarah x 🙂
🤷 The greatest power of God does not reside in miracles, whether they are authenticated or proven false.

It could be that you are so intent on finding the forest that you’re missing the trees.

One of St. Francis’ original Brothers stated that he wished men had long necks like storks, so that words would get stuck in their throats. You talk a great deal; I say this without meaning to offend when I say that perhaps you should stop talking, and start listening and doing. You will not be able to exercise a sense of faith without doing things like offering a prayer in the spirit of wishing to find the Truth. 🤷

If this is something you are unwilling to do, despite how you feel, there is nothing on earth that will help you find a sense of faith.

Science can never destroy faith, because science is only the echo of a larger truth, marvelous and inspiring though it may be.

Good luck, Sarah. (God will never give up on you; that is His greatest power, not spinning suns or ever-fresh bodies. I am glad to count you as a friend, if you wish to do likewise.)
 
Science can never destroy faith, because science is only the echo of a larger truth, marvelous and inspiring though it may be.
A wonderful, trenchant comment and I am saving that one on my harddrive!
 
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