Science can't destroy Religion

[Al_Moritz]

Al, I thought I remembered reports that the sun came toward the people and they felt the increase in heat and dried their clothes and the mud.

See the following hypothesis:

cantuar.blogspot.com/2011/05/miracle-of-sun-and-air-lens-theory-of.html

 

[Al_Moritz]

The Northern Lights phenomenon has a very well-understood scientific cause. What I was suggesting was that, in a species with eyes that are identically constructed, something like what allegedly happened at Fatima can also be scientifically explained (at least, in principle).

Precisely. It may very well have been a natural phenomenon. Yet it took place at an exact date and time predicted months before. That would have been the miracle.

 

[buffalo]

See the following hypothesis:

cantuar.blogspot.com/2011/05/miracle-of-sun-and-air-lens-theory-of.html

Sounds plausible.

 

[ASimon]

Precisely. It may very well have been a natural phenomenon. Yet it took place at an exact date and time predicted months before. That would have been the miracle.

If it was natural phenomenon, and scientifically understood and explainable, then the fact that it was predicted at all becomes trivial. Albert Einstein once staked his scientific reputation on a prediction that a solar eclipse would be visible from the coast of Africa on a specific day and time. And he turned out to be right. That may have been a big deal at the time, as the science behind solar events wasn’t as well understood. But today, there’s no mystery to them, and they are regularly predicted decades in advance.

 

[Al_Moritz]

If it was natural phenomenon, and scientifically understood and explainable, then the fact that it was predicted at all becomes trivial. Albert Einstein once staked his scientific reputation on a prediction that a solar eclipse would be visible from the coast of Africa on a specific day and time. And he turned out to be right. That may have been a big deal at the time, as the science behind solar events wasn’t as well understood. But today, there’s no mystery to them, and they are regularly predicted decades in advance.

Aah, but it was not predictable at the time. Also, the date and time of the event was predicted by the ‘videntes’, the children, who were certainly neither educated in science nor geniuses in science

So no, the fact that it was predicted at all is not trivial.

 

[ASimon]

Aah, but it was not predictable at the time. Also, the date and time of the event was predicted by the ‘videntes’, the children, who were certainly neither educated nor geniuses in science

So no, the fact that it was predicted at all is not trivial.

It may not have been trivial then, so I don’t argue that people at the time thought it was a miracle. But assuming it was a natural phenomenon, then why are we still calling it miraculous? It follows that, if we were to try to replicate the experiment under similar conditions, then we’d achieve similar results. The problem is, we don’t really know, with any real certainty, just what the conditions were. And staring at the sun with unprotected eyes is probably bad for you under any circumstances.

 

[atheistgirl]

That would have been the miracle.

Or a coincidence.

Since people were actively looking for a miracle, by conincidence this natural ice lens occurs, natural phenomena are experienced as a result and everyone says wow, a miracle

Had it not been that, it might have been something as equally coincidental but perfectly natural for example the rain stops when one of the children raises their joined hands in prayer or something similar

Sarah x

 

[Lochias]

Or a coincidence.

Since people were actively looking for a miracle, by conincidence this natural ice lens occurs, natural phenomena are experienced as a result and everyone says wow, a miracle

Had it not been that, it might have been something as equally coincidental but perfectly natural for example the rain stops when one of the children raises their joined hands in prayer or something similar

Sarah x

Coulda, mighta, maybe…the fact is that something did happen at the specified time, date and place, which resembled what it was supposed to.

Saying it was just coincidence is displaying a staggering amount of sheer stubbornness when the other variables are taken into account. I’m reminded of my cat who digs his claws into the furniture (or my skin) so that I can’t drag him into his pet carrier when it’s time to go to the vet.

 

[Al_Moritz]

Coulda, mighta, maybe…the fact is that something did happen at the specified time, date and place, which resembled what it was supposed to.

Saying it was just coincidence is displaying a staggering amount of sheer stubbornness when the other variables are taken into account. I’m reminded of my cat who digs his claws into the furniture (or my skin) so that I can’t drag him into his pet carrier when it’s time to go to the vet.

Precisely. Like the fact that the laws of nature are extremely fine-tuned for life is just a ‘coincidence’. Atheism lives from ‘coincidences’. Not convincing, in my book.

(The outcome of evolution etc. is no coincidence though, at least not on a broader level *) – here I side with atheists contra creationists.)

*) i.e. without insisting that our human bodies should have precisely looked like they do under any circumstances

 

[Lochias]

Precisely. Like the fact that the laws of nature are extremely fine-tuned for life is just a ‘coincidence’. Atheism lives from ‘coincidences’. Not convincing, in my book.

(The outcome of evolution etc. is no coincidence though, at least not on a broader level *) – here I side with atheists contra creationists.)

*) i.e. without insisting that our human bodies should have precisely looked like they do under any circumstances

Agreed, whole post.

 

[buffalo]

Important - God can use nature as part of his supernatural acts.

 

[atheistgirl]

Coulda, mighta, maybe…the fact is that something did happen at the specified time, date and place, which resembled what it was supposed to.

But that’s the point though, a miracle - which could be anything and we know everyone there was expecting one.

It was just left as a vague, there will be a miracle.

It might have been a little more noteworthy if they’d said ahead of time, it will rain, suddenly stop, the sun will dance in the sky and it will last 7 minutes 54 seconds, or some thing like that.

But it was just ‘’ a miracle’’

Saying it was just coincidence is displaying a staggering amount of sheer stubbornness when the other variables are taken into account.

It’s not really.

I said to Al above I really do wish several observatories around the world had independently confirmed the sun, for several moments, was out of it’s orbit, and closer to the earth by some 50 million miles.

Were that to have happened, we know the earth would have been destroyed, so that would really have made me take notice.

But unfortunately, the very systems set up to take note of such events, report nothing.

Sarah x

 

[buffalo]

But that’s the point though, a miracle - which could be anything and we know everyone there was expecting one.

It was just left as a vague, there will be a miracle.

It might have been a little more noteworthy if they’d said ahead of time, it will rain, suddenly stop, the sun will dance in the sky and it will last 7 minutes 54 seconds, or some thing like that.

But it was just ‘’ a miracle’’

It’s not really.

I said to Al above I really do wish several observatories around the world had independently confirmed the sun, for several moments, was out of it’s orbit, and closer to the earth by some 50 million miles.

Were that to have happened, we know the earth would have been destroyed, so that would really have made me take notice.

But unfortunately, the very systems set up to take note of such events, report nothing.

Sarah x

Perhaps God suspended time for the rest of the world during the event.

 

[Lochias]

But that’s the point though, a miracle - which could be anything and we know everyone there was expecting one.

It was just left as a vague, there will be a miracle.

It might have been a little more noteworthy if they’d said ahead of time, it will rain, suddenly stop, the sun will dance in the sky and it will last 7 minutes 54 seconds, or some thing like that.

But it was just ‘’ a miracle’’

It’s not really.

I said to Al above I really do wish several observatories around the world had independently confirmed the sun, for several moments, was out of it’s orbit, and closer to the earth by some 50 million miles.

Were that to have happened, we know the earth would have been destroyed, so that would really have made me take notice.

But unfortunately, the very systems set up to take note of such events, report nothing.

Sarah x

So, in other words, God should revolve around your own expectations and desires, in order to be valid and true?

 

[CopticChristian]

But that’s the point though, a miracle - which could be anything and we know everyone there was expecting one.

It was just left as a vague, there will be a miracle.

It might have been a little more noteworthy if they’d said ahead of time, it will rain, suddenly stop, the sun will dance in the sky and it will last 7 minutes 54 seconds, or some thing like that.

But it was just ‘’ a miracle’’

It’s not really.

I said to Al above I really do wish several observatories around the world had independently confirmed the sun, for several moments, was out of it’s orbit, and closer to the earth by some 50 million miles.

Were that to have happened, we know the earth would have been destroyed, so that would really have made me take notice.

But unfortunately, the very systems set up to take note of such events, report nothing.

Sarah x

Sarah,

Any luck with any numbers?

I was looking back starting with post 315…and then I posted something…in retrospect I kind of derailed my own thread…the conversation from that point took a turn to what it is now…miracles, God and Science and without any direction we are a point where the last 100 posts are a free form basically showing that Science and Religion are compatible…I believe that Science Can’t destroy Religion and it appears that Science has respect…it is an interesting read from post 315 to now…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I said to Al above I really do wish several observatories around the world had independently confirmed the sun, for several moments, was out of it’s orbit, and closer to the earth by some 50 million miles.

On that note, have their been any modern miracles that have been capture with recording devices and put through anslysis?

 

[Lochias]

On that note, have their been any modern miracles that have been capture with recording devices and put through anslysis?

If you found out that the answer to this question was “yes”, would you instantly and suddenly begin to believe whole-heartedly in God?

Edit: Any of the incorruptible corpses would satisfy this criteria, with examinations and documentation having been provided for them. There’s a thread somewhere on the site here that links to the information.

 

[buffalo]

On that note, have their been any modern miracles that have been capture with recording devices and put through anslysis?

One could look at -
Science Sees What Mary Saw From Juan Diego’s Tilma

Digital technology is giving new leads for understanding a phenomenon that continues to puzzle science: the mysterious eyes of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe.
The image, imprinted on the tilma of a l6th-century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to the Catholic faith. Earlier this month in Rome, results of research into the famed image were discussed by engineer José Aste Tonsmann of the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies during a conference at Pontifical Regina Apostolorum Athenaeum.
For over 20 years, this graduate in environmental systems engineering at Cornell University has studied the image of the Virgin left on the rough maguey-fiber fabric of Juan Diego’s tilma. What intrigued Tonsmann most were the eyes of the Virgin.
Though the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and the pupils of the image’s eyes have imprinted on them a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, Tonsmann said. The same people are present in both the left and right eyes, in different proportions, as would happen when human eyes reflect the objects before them.

more…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

If you found out that the answer to this question was “yes”, would you instantly and suddenly begin to believe whole-heartedly in God?

If by that you mean would I specifically conclude that Yahweh exists then I don’t know. I may need something that connects said miracle with Yahweh. I may have different reactions to different miracles. I’ve never knowingly experienced a miracle before and don’t know much about how I would react to them. If I came across what appeared to be one that is within some domain that I understand (ex: if some one told me about a miracle in quantum mechanics I don’t think I would be able to mentally process it presently) I might find it worthy of further consideration. I don’t see myself coming to a hasty conclusion though. Depending on the circumstances some instances of that might come across as a “God of the Gaps” type conclusion.

Edit: Any of the incorruptible corpses would satisfy this criteria, with examinations and documentation having been provided for them. There’s a thread somewhere on the site here that links to the information.

I’ve heard of these, and I’ve found information that has said that they were tested, but I’ve not been able to get my hands on a copy of a report from them having been tested.

 

[Lochias]

If by that you mean would I specifically conclude that Yahweh exists then I don’t know. I may need something that connects said miracle with Yahweh. I may have different reactions to different miracles. I’ve never knowingly experienced a miracle before and don’t know much about how I would react to them. If I came across what appeared to be one that is within some domain that I understand (ex: if some one told me about a miracle in quantum mechanics I don’t think I would be able to mentally process it presently) I might find it worthy of further consideration. I don’t see myself coming to a hasty conclusion though. Depending on the circumstances some instances of that might come across as a “God of the Gaps” type conclusion.

Ok, fair enough.

I’ve heard of these, and I’ve found information that has said that they were tested, but I’ve not been able to get my hands on a copy of a report from them having been tested.

I don’t have the time currently to look, but one of the threads has a link that, in turn, links to a photographed medical report, if I recall correctly. I may be scarce on here for the next few days, but if you haven’t found anything by then, I’ll help you look.