Science debunking miracles?

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Sister_Terese said:
Here is the website for the scientific tests done on the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
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I’m sorry but there are no ‘scientific tests’ reported here. The ‘tests’ are not described either in methodology of outcome. Only conclusions are presented. The principal ‘scientist’ is described with many adjectives, but appears to have never published anything, and there is no institution mentioned with his name.

It is not for me to tell Catholics how to promote their faith. But my advice if asked would be: wait until you have a miracle capable of convincing someone.
 
Evan said:
If the miracles were worked once, to convince people of God’s authority over the universe, why would he need to work them over and over. If he has the authority, there is no need to do it again. Ever. Just once is enough.

If I can count to 100, and I do it once, I don’t need to keep doing it over and over. I can do it. It’s not important.

Just like it’s not important to God that he can work these miracles. He can, so there is nothing more to prove. Once he raises someone from the dead, he has shown authority over death.

If he did them every 100 years, you might then be asking, yeah but why doesn’t he do them every year and tell me where they are going to happen so I can go see them myself, and even then I don’t want to believe them because there is no God.
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What you say is perfectly logical. What requires explanation is why God would perform good, impressive, obviously miraculous miracles 2000 years ago, and continue to perform miracles today, only unimpressive ones which mimic naturally-occurring events, or are impossible to establish.
 
Hokomai said:
I’m sorry but there are no ‘scientific tests’ reported here. The ‘tests’ are not described either in methodology of outcome. Only conclusions are presented. The principal ‘scientist’ is described with many adjectives, but appears to have never published anything, and there is no institution mentioned with his name.

It is not for me to tell Catholics how to promote their faith. But my advice if asked would be: wait until you have a miracle capable of convincing someone.
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As mentioned above, a PubMed search turns up the following:

Quad Sclavo Diagn. 1971 Sep;7(3):661-74.
[Histological, immunological and biochemiccal studies on the flesh and blood of the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano (8th century)].

[Article in Italian]
Linoli O.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4950729

Using ISI Web of Knowledge, I come up with 41 hits by “Linoli O”, all in Italian language journals, between the years of 1950 and 1994. The older cites in the database in particular do not include metadata such as author address, so it is hard to say it is the same person. A quick scan of titles indicates they are primarily of a clinical pathology/histology nature, so it is reasonable to suspect it is the same person. For example, around the same time frame, we have titles (in translation) along the lines of “Evaluation of the Coulter mod. S automatic counter for hematology after 2 years of use” and “Erythrocytic carbonic andhydrase isoenzymes in normal subjects and in patients with blastomas and hemopathies”. From which I deduce that this is not some non-existent scientist invented out of whole cloth.

As I also indicated above, one could probably request this Quad Sclavo Diagn paper for about $50 through a document delivery service, and maybe a couple hundred dollars for a technical translator (if you don’t happen to be trained in Italian terminology in clinical pathology). I think what you will find is basic serology and microscopy of a tissue & blood sample.

Now if you ask me, all that would show is that what is preserved there is human tissue and blood. Proving a miraculous origin or a connection to Jesus is a much different question…
 
HisIsTheCrown said:
Simple things in life are a miracle and we do not see them.
A flower is a miracle or reproduction. The plant dies and seeds bring a new plant, months later, similar to her mother and father.
Sex is a miracle. Animals reproduce (how did they learn that) and the offspring are born from a little celule invisible to the eye and has got all the appearances of their mother and fathers. No engineer can create a robot that reproduces…
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EXACTLY!! There are amazing miracles all around us if we would just be open to see them. Try studying the workings of the eye–that is a real miracle! Study our atmosphere for one! The fact that the earth wobbles on its axis is another miracle for if it did not, part of the earth would burn up and the other part would freeze up. There are many other miracles of science which point directly to an Omnipotent Designer…I call Him God…
 
Hokomai said:
I’m sorry but there are no ‘scientific tests’ reported here. The ‘tests’ are not described either in methodology of outcome. Only conclusions are presented. The principal ‘scientist’ is described with many adjectives, but appears to have never published anything, and there is no institution mentioned with his name.

It is not for me to tell Catholics how to promote their faith. But my advice if asked would be: wait until you have a miracle capable of convincing someone.
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Wow…sad.
 
Hokomai said:
It is not for me to tell Catholics how to promote their faith. But my advice if asked would be: wait until you have a miracle capable of convincing someone.
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As you say, it’s not up to you to tell Catholics how to promote their faith. From the end of Matthew’s gospel: The Apostles, having experienced the resurrected Jesus, are given the commission to go out and make disciples of all the earth. Not sit around and wait for miracles capable of convincing someone.

The miracle stories aren’t included in the gospels as magic tricks to convince people to believe. They are catechetical. They say something about who Jesus is, vis a vis Moses and the prophets who prefigure many of the miracles of Jesus. They describe Jesus’ relationship to the Father, and the nature of Jesus’ ministry as one of healing and forgiveness. As in the gospel of John - Jesus gains a bunch of followers after the multiplying of the loaves and fishes - people are happy for a free meal - but within a day or two many of them pick up and leave because they don’t like the message. The gospels themselves do not promote miracles as the primary route to belief.
 
Bobby_Jim said:
As you say, it’s not up to you to tell Catholics how to promote their faith. From the end of Matthew’s gospel: The Apostles, having experienced the resurrected Jesus, are given the commission to go out and make disciples of all the earth. Not sit around and wait for miracles capable of convincing someone.

The miracle stories aren’t included in the gospels as magic tricks to convince people to believe. They are catechetical. They say something about who Jesus is, vis a vis Moses and the prophets who prefigure many of the miracles of Jesus. They describe Jesus’ relationship to the Father, and the nature of Jesus’ ministry as one of healing and forgiveness. As in the gospel of John - Jesus gains a bunch of followers after the multiplying of the loaves and fishes - people are happy for a free meal - but within a day or two many of them pick up and leave because they don’t like the message. The gospels themselves do not promote miracles as the primary route to belief.
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So what are these modern, unimpressive miracles for? They neither convince, not teach.
 
Sister_Terese said:
EXACTLY!! There are amazing miracles all around us if we would just be open to see them. Try studying the workings of the eye–that is a real miracle! Study our atmosphere for one! The fact that the earth wobbles on its axis is another miracle for if it did not, part of the earth would burn up and the other part would freeze up. There are many other miracles of science which point directly to an Omnipotent Designer…I call Him God…
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100% agree.
Some call it Intelligent Design, others Supreme Computer, others “Something Above”.
As you, it is simpler for me. Three letters= God.
What you say is what I feel, it is called Contemplation in Action by St. Ignatius of Loyola. St. Ignatius wanted the Jesuits to be different from the contemplative Orders like the Carthusians and the Benedictines who prayed aside from the world or the Parish Priests who were called more to Action. He wanted to mix the 2 = Prayer in Action or better contemplation in action.
I add this: the Earth is in the Exact orbit towards the Sun: closer, we would burn, more distant, we would freeze. The Solar System is in one side of the Milk Way. Were it in the center, life would be impossible for there would be too many stars around and there would be no night. And so on…
There is much heat in my country. An Agronomy Engineer friend of mine told me that this is a problem because the plants give flowers earlier. I said: “Why?” - “Because they feel that they should reproduce for the heat may kill them!” - “What?” - said I, “the plants feel that?”. I was astonished.
I like reproduction much for it is a gift of God given to life to participate in His Creation.
I was surprised when the other day I heard an American Biology professor saying that maybe till 2050 there will be no creation of life in the Lab. For me, creation of Life in the Lab does not destroy God but I am curious. I was surprised for everyday I am told that someone created life in the Lab which turns out to be fake.
So, a small bacteria wins over the brightest minds in the world? So, how Intelligent will be God?
 
EviPolevhia said:
Mars is in the Habitable Zone, your argument (on this point) is invalid. The zone extends far beyond the orbit of Earth.
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Unfortunately for Mars, it’s about a quarter the size of Earth meaning it could not sustain it’s molten core long enough to keep the atmosphere it once had, which was blown away by the solar winds after the core hardened. So being in the “butter zone” isn’t enough. A planet has to have a lot of things going for it to sustain life. Earth has them, and not by chance. 😉
 
Hokomai said:
So what are these modern, unimpressive miracles for? They neither convince, not teach.
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For the Catholics, who already believe, but could use something to strengthen their faith, for non-Catholics, who would like to do a full-scale investigation of the evidence that exists, for the “recipients” (the ones who were healed), for the Congregation for the Causes of Saints…

Also, it’s not like they are not spectacular. It’s just that you expect something even more spectacular - and it is not certain that you wouldn’t find a materialistic explanation for that too.

By the way, I suspect that it will be easier to explain from the other side. Let’s take the same example of Quantum Mechanics. The experiment with a tunnel diode is spectacular. But it doesn’t mean that there are no men who refuse to believe Quantum Mechanics. They just find such experiments unpersuasive. But it doesn’t mean that the experiment with a tunnel diode is useless unless it persuades everyone that Quantum Mechanics is true. Similarly, the miracles have their uses even if they do not persuade every single atheist.
 
MPat said:
For the Catholics, who already believe, but could use something to strengthen their faith, for non-Catholics, who would like to do a full-scale investigation of the evidence that exists, for the “recipients” (the ones who were healed), for the Congregation for the Causes of Saints…

Also, it’s not like they are not spectacular. It’s just that you expect something even more spectacular - and it is not certain that you wouldn’t find a materialistic explanation for that too.

By the way, I suspect that it will be easier to explain from the other side. Let’s take the same example of Quantum Mechanics. The experiment with a tunnel diode is spectacular. But it doesn’t mean that there are no men who refuse to believe Quantum Mechanics. They just find such experiments unpersuasive. But it doesn’t mean that the experiment with a tunnel diode is useless unless it persuades everyone that Quantum Mechanics is true. Similarly, the miracles have their uses even if they do not persuade every single atheist.
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All life is a miracle. I have a pet cat. Everyday I marvel at his relationship with his world. I know that sounds simplistic, but it is how I see things. Mathematics is the language of God and science is proof of His handiwork. That’s how I see things. I believe I have been given a great gift–Grace, for us Catholics. Jesus said that we must be as little children–He didn’t mean childish, but He meant that we approach God and His creation with awe and wonder. Even at my old age, I am still able to do that every day.
 
Della said:
Unfortunately for Mars, it’s about a quarter the size of Earth meaning it could not sustain it’s molten core long enough to keep the atmosphere it once had, which was blown away by the solar winds after the core hardened. So being in the “butter zone” isn’t enough. A planet has to have a lot of things going for it to sustain life. Earth has them, and not by chance. 😉
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Would you mind that I emphasize yours “not by chance” ?👍
 
Hokomai said:
So what are these modern, unimpressive miracles for? They neither convince, not teach.
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I don’t know. They fall into what would be considered “private revelation”. For example, this Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano originiated, so the story goes, for the sake of a particular monk that was having doubts in his faith. If other people find it edifying, then so be it. But the faith isn’t meant to depend upon a continuous series of miracles (smaller or larger) to keep convincing people one generation after another. Rather it depends on the testimony and teaching of the Apostles, who themselves experienced the risen Christ, and their successors.

The other story that comes to mind from the Gospels is where Jesus returns to Nazareth, and is unable to work any mighty deeds there, besides cure a few sick or something like this, because of the antagonistic and skeptical attitude of his townsfolk. So maybe miracles aren’t meant to convince people to believe. Perhaps miracles require some degree of faith to begin with?
 
Science tries to answer all questions, even the unanswerable ones (Godly).

Jeremiah 17:5
 
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