Science Fiction books and religion

[JimG]

As for science fiction in general, I’d say that even prior to the sixties there was an assumption that God had been superseded by rationality and science.

Yes. I used to read a lot of Isaac Asimov novels. In all of his future histories there was simply no trace of religion at all. He deliberately left it out. Of course, he himself was a self-professed atheist humanist. But I liked his writing anyway.

He did have one rather intriguing novel (The God’s Themselves, IIRC) in which there were 3 genders. Marital consummation required 3 individuals, and the result was a new single individual with new properties who had no memory of his prior tripartite existence. Maybe he was stealing trinitarian ideas.

As for the abortion story, I think it came shortly before R v W, but not really sure.

 

[Contarini]

And is Flannery O’Connor a writer or a person in the instruction of writing, I have heard her name. Probably on a U2 deal Im thinking.

She was a writer of short stories and two novels. She spent most of her life in Milledgeville, Georgia, though she did study writing in New York for a while. She was a devout Catholic, which is one of the reasons I cited her. The story I’d recommend for starters (especially to a Catholic) is “Parker’s Back.” The most commonly anthologized story (I had to read it in college, and probably a lot of other people do as well) is “A Good Man is Hard to Find.” It’s a great story in its way but quite repellent (a whole family gets murdered), and unless you understand O’Connor before reading the story you will just think it’s another bleak, nihilistic modern story (that’s certainly how I reacted to it–it took a lot of coaxing from one of my professors to get me past that initial reaction).

In a sense O’Connor and Wolfe (weird as this sounds) are similar, in that both describe characters backing reluctantly toward grace in a strange, bleak world where God appears absent but everything is actually yearning for Him. Of course, Wolfe’s setting is the far future and O’Connor’s is 20th-century Georgia!

OK, that’s what O’Connor is about, and it seems to be what Wolfe and his admirers say Wolfe is about. I have not read enough of Wolfe to be entirely convinced, but what I have read will bear that interpretation.

Actually this seems to be what pretty much all 20th-century Catholic fiction is about. Given how much Catholics tend to want to distinguish themselves from Luther and Calvin and total depravity and all that, it’s amazing how “Lutheran” most of these writers sound (or even “caricatured Lutheran” complete with a tendency toward antinomianism).

Anyway, by all means read O’Connor. She’s one of my favorite writers, though I can only stand her in small doses.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Yes. I used to read a lot of Isaac Asimov novels. In all of his future histories there was simply no trace of religion at all.

There’s a very funny line in one of his later novels (the prequel to the Foundation series that deals with Hari Seldon), where one of the characters says, “There is this thing called religion, and some cultures have it,” or something like that.

But I liked his writing anyway.

There is something likeable about Asimov, although he’s not one of my real favorites.

As for the abortion story, I think it came shortly before R v W, but not really sure.

Fred Saberhagen wrote a novel called Love Conquers All(1979) which describes a future world (much like Huxley’s Brave New World) in which sex is literally worshipped and chastity and fidelity are regarded with the same prudish horror with which the Victorians [allegedly] regarded sex. In this world, as you can imagine, birth control is very important, and children conceived without the government’s permission are forcibly aborted. It’s a bit cartoonish, but still very powerful, and seems quite decidedly on the pro-life side.

Edwin

 

[JimG]

She was a writer of short stories and two novels. She spent most of her life in Milledgeville, Georgia, though she did study writing in New York for a while. She was a devout Catholic, which is one of the reasons I cited her.

I like Flannery O’Conner’s writing (not science fiction). But the first time you come across it, it can seem a little depressing.

My brother in Geogia told me that upon first reading her, he was thinking, “she has really captured the language and customs of the South;” he was just enjoying the story, and before he knew it, everybody was dead. I visited her house in Milledgeville once. It’s not a big tourist attraction, though they are trying.

It was O’Conner who once defended her belief in the Eucharist with the comment, “well, if it’s just a symbol, then to hell with it.”

 

[Viki59]

Like I said, I am writing a book… just for fun, of course…

But what would make a good book? What makes a good Catholic Sci-Fi? Like I said, I am picturing my book to be one grand analogy for the Church, more of a teaching tool than literature. Is this all right? Would be enjoy it and/or even read it?

It’s great that you want to write, and you will succeed if you keep at it.
For me, I prefer books that don’t preach or teach. Tell a good, exciting or intriguing story, and if it comes from your heart, as a Catholic, it will convey your worldview and your faith.
I doubt that I’d read a teaching tool, I’d choose a nonfiction book for that, and nobody writes allegories any more. But writers like Dean Koontz, for example, tell an exciting story with a moral point of view and are very popular. (Okay, he’s not the greatest writer in the world, but his books have an underlying faith in humanity - and God - that I find refreshing.)

 

[Catholig]

A long time ago, before Roe v Wade, I believe, but not sure, I read a short story in the Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction (F&SF). It was about a society in the near future where abortion was entirely legal up to something like 10 years of age. The protaganists were a couple of 12 year olds telling stories about the “abortion van” which went about the neighborhood to pick up unwanted children! That story stuck in my mind, altho I believe it did generate quite a few irate letters.

JimG,

That story was written after Roe V. Wade I’m pretty sure. It was written by Philip K. DI-CK and is anthologized in the book The Eye of the Sibyl.

It’s name is The Pre-Persons.

Catholig

 

[Catholig]

BTW - does anyone here still subscribe to any of the Science Fiction Mags? You know Asimov’s, Analog, F&SF? I haven’t read a bit of SF in a long time. I wish I could pick up a decent book - but I guess I"ve already complained enough.

Catholig

 

[Nepenthe]

To those who think Wolfe’s works may be ‘too dark,’ I can assure you, they are not. Most likely, you have heard about the Book of the New Sun, which describes a world heavy with age, rich and rotting and dimly lit (the sun itself is flickering and the stars can be seen by day), but tantalizingly illuminated with hope – a hope which is implicitly fulfilled. The Soldier books by contrast show the ancient world, young, optimistic and filled with curiosity, as yet ignorant and feeling its way towards enlightenment. Wolfe is subtle, and his characters are very human (or, well, most of them are…human, I mean). They sometimes struggle with despair, but their struggles are not futile.

And to Catholig: I have certainly read my share of SF periodicals in my time, and even worked at Locus magazine many years ago.
If you really want a huge pure fix of great short science fiction, you cannot go wrong with Gardner Dozois’ annual mighty tome, the deservedly-titled Year’s Best Science Fiction. Dozois is an amazing editor (though I’m not sure why he seems to like Greg Bear’s work so much – de gustibus non est disputandum I suppose!) and an excellent author in his own right. While some years are better than others, he never fails to pick the very finest.

Along those lines, I also recommend what may be considered its yearly complement, the Year’s Best Fantasy and Horror, edited by Ellen Datlow and the two-person team of Kelly Link and Gavin Grant (both formerly of the absolutely marvelous quarterly Lady Churchill’s Rosebud Wristlet). Link and Grant took over the position on half of YBF&H from Terri Windling (whose name you’ll see next to Datlow’s on many of the older years) and they have brought a whole new level of literary quality to the annual, which was already very high indeed – and Datlow is as legendary as Dozois, and justly so.

Every summer and fall I look forward to these editions, and both are worth far more than their cover price – oo, YBSF is out in a couple weeks! Yaaaaaaay! I’d love to say I could wait a month until we’re at the seashore to read it, but I know myself better than that.

 

[Zahmir]

It’s great that you want to write, and you will succeed if you keep at it.
For me, I prefer books that don’t preach or teach. Tell a good, exciting or intriguing story, and if it comes from your heart, as a Catholic, it will convey your worldview and your faith.
I doubt that I’d read a teaching tool, I’d choose a nonfiction book for that, and nobody writes allegories any more. But writers like Dean Koontz, for example, tell an exciting story with a moral point of view and are very popular. (Okay, he’s not the greatest writer in the world, but his books have an underlying faith in humanity - and God - that I find refreshing.)

What do you mean, “no one writes allegories anymore”? Are they outdated or do people not have the energy for them? Do people not read them?

I think allegories are lots of fun.

 

[edwest2]

I used to read a few science fiction magazines in the 1980s but they were pretty much dead by then. The sexualiztion of the stories was a real bad thing. I remember reading a complaint from one of the publishers saying distribution for the magazines was a problem. I don’t believe that. SF magazines had to follow the media drive to sexualize and vulgarize everything. That’s why I dropped them.

God bless,
Ed

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Actually, the Dune Series has a take on how religion can grow from a manipulation from above. The points it makes by the time you get into the 3rd book (Children of Dune) (but quite a bit in the 2nd book Dune Messiah) shows that the ones who hold the power can easily have cynical non-religion interests to use religion to deceive the masses.

The more I look around, no religion around the world can totally get away from it as every one at some time has suffered from it, often very badly.

 

[JimG]

JimG,

That story was written after Roe V. Wade I’m pretty sure. It was written by Philip K. DI-CK and is anthologized in the book The Eye of the Sibyl.

It’s name is The Pre-Persons.

Catholig

Thanks for that information!

 

[Writer]

I guess I should be more specific. I very much have an imaginative side, hence my love of fiction. However, I am not at all for “fiction for the sake of fiction” as I believe all writing should lead you to a greater understanding of Truth.

My attempts at science-fiction as they exist now would be to, in grand analogy, offer a dynamic picture of the Church.

I will read what you suggest. I guess I’m just trying to develop my creative side. I am still young, only 20, and so I have a long way to go before I reach my prime, but I still want to start early and not waste any time!

Just as a suggestion, building a story around a moral framework or message usually does not work as well as letting the story tell the reader (and sometimes the writer) what its own message is, letting it come in a more natural way. In other words, if the story is of secondary importance to a message–the story is merely a mechanism to deliver the desired message–you may have a problem keeping your readers attention. In fact, lately there have been some kid’s movies that come across to me that way, and they seem to fade away somewhat quickly.

I understand that sometimes that’s hard advice to follow, but it really does work. I just finished a short science fiction piece concerning an unscheduled visit to purgatory for a science fiction anthology, and I hope that the underlying religious elements won’t prevent it from being included in the upcoming book. I think/hope, however, that it could still be read and enjoyed without any understanding of Purgatory, and that’s important.

By the way, there are some Catholic science fiction writers, like Karina Fabian, who are new to the scene, but worth keeping an eye on! Ann Margaret Lewis is another Catholic writer who does science fiction. (She’s done some of the*** Star Wars ***-related books.)

annmargaretlewis.com/

fabianspace.com/

Keep writing!

 

[JimG]

BTW - does anyone here still subscribe to any of the Science Fiction Mags? You know Asimov’s, Analog, F&SF? I haven’t read a bit of SF in a long time. I wish I could pick up a decent book - but I guess I"ve already complained enough.

Catholig

Well, apparently my local library doesn’t have the anthology. Looks like the story (The Pre-Persons) was originally published in the Oct 1974 issue of F&SF. According to the short comment I found here from the author, it resulted in a rather nasty letter from Joanna Russ.

 

[Zahmir]

Just as a suggestion, building a story around a moral framework or message usually does not work as well as letting the story tell the reader (and sometimes the writer) what its own message is, letting it come in a more natural way. In other words, if the story is of secondary importance to a message–the story is merely a mechanism to deliver the desired message–you may have a problem keeping your readers attention. In fact, lately there have been some kid’s movies that come across to me that way, and they seem to fade away somewhat quickly.

I understand that sometimes that’s hard advice to follow, but it really does work. I just finished a short science fiction piece concerning an unscheduled visit to purgatory for a science fiction anthology, and I hope that the underlying religious elements won’t prevent it from being included in the upcoming book. I think/hope, however, that it could still be read and enjoyed without any understanding of Purgatory, and that’s important.

By the way, there are some Catholic science fiction writers, like Karina Fabian, who are new to the scene, but worth keeping an eye on! Ann Margaret Lewis is another Catholic writer who does science fiction. (She’s done some of the*** Star Wars ***-related books.)

annmargaretlewis.com/

fabianspace.com/

Keep writing!

Is it alright if, for example, I simply build my story around the analogy but leave the message itself for the readers?

Like, I know where I want the plot to go, but I don’t have any intention of delivering a particular message. I want the story to be primarily entertaining, but only so that later they can more easily reflect on the allegory.

If anyone is interested and promises not to take my ideas elsewehre, I can send them a message with a snipet of the beginning.

 

[Writer]

Is it alright if, for example, I simply build my story around the analogy but leave the message itself for the readers?

Like, I know where I want the plot to go, but I don’t have any intention of delivering a particular message. I want the story to be primarily entertaining, but only so that later they can more easily reflect on the allegory.

If anyone is interested and promises not to take my ideas elsewehre, I can send them a message with a snipet of the beginning.

Allegory seems a little different than an ordinary message, since there are really two different ways to read the work in question. I’ve read criticisms of C.S. Lewis’ ***Chronicles of Narnia ***, for example, on these grounds, but I think the books are fantastic and inspiring. (Was it J.R.R. Tolkien who made this criticism?) I guess I’d have to say that allegory can work that way, but you still have to use care that the themes don’t take attention away from the story.

I’d be happy to read the excerpt in confidence and send you my thoughts–for what they’re worth…

 

[edwest2]

I disagree. I think everything an author does has an intention behind it. For me, the work has to contain some virtue. And that still sells.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Writer]

I disagree. I think everything an author does has an intention behind it. For me, the work has to contain some virtue. And that still sells.

God bless,
Ed

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, or not. I agree with what you write here, though. Here is a quote from C.S. Lewis’ ***Of Other Worlds, Essays and Stories. ***He puts it better than I can hope to explain it.

"Let the pictures tell you their own moral. For the moral inherent in them will rise from whatever spiritual roots you have succeeded in striking during the whole course of your life. But if they don’t show you any moral, don’t put one in. For the moral you put in is likely to be a platitude, or even a falsehood, skimmed from the surface of your consciousness…"

This is taken from the chapter entitled “On Three Ways of Writing for Children”. If you want to learn more about the art of writing, it is a wonderful book. I have tried writing both ways and, for me at least, the one story I tried to write around a pre-existing moral theme or idea just did not work at all. The story should suggest the message or theme–not vice versa.

Like I said, though, allegory is a slightly different animal–if it is done well.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

She was a writer of short stories and two novels. She spent most of her life in Milledgeville, Georgia, though she did study writing in New York for a while. She was a devout Catholic, which is one of the reasons I cited her. The story I’d recommend for starters (especially to a Catholic) is “Parker’s Back.” The most commonly anthologized story (I had to read it in college, and probably a lot of other people do as well) is “A Good Man is Hard to Find.” It’s a great story in its way but quite repellent (a whole family gets murdered), and unless you understand O’Connor before reading the story you will just think it’s another bleak, nihilistic modern story (that’s certainly how I reacted to it–it took a lot of coaxing from one of my professors to get me past that initial reaction).

In a sense O’Connor and Wolfe (weird as this sounds) are similar, in that both describe characters backing reluctantly toward grace in a strange, bleak world where God appears absent but everything is actually yearning for Him. Of course, Wolfe’s setting is the far future and O’Connor’s is 20th-century Georgia!

OK, that’s what O’Connor is about, and it seems to be what Wolfe and his admirers say Wolfe is about. I have not read enough of Wolfe to be entirely convinced, but what I have read will bear that interpretation.

Actually this seems to be what pretty much all 20th-century Catholic fiction is about. Given how much Catholics tend to want to distinguish themselves from Luther and Calvin and total depravity and all that, it’s amazing how “Lutheran” most of these writers sound (or even “caricatured Lutheran” complete with a tendency toward antinomianism).

Anyway, by all means read O’Connor. She’s one of my favorite writers, though I can only stand her in small doses.

In Christ,

Edwin

btw thanks, I went to Chapters (like Barnes and Nobel) last night and tried to pick up Wolfe or O Conner, there was no Wolfe and some of the other but they looked like romances at the time and when I read the posts again, I suppose they look like that but dont end up that way? do I have that right?

Wolfes first book was the sun one? I would have to order it in, or find it at the library. And what was the suggestion for O conner I will give it another try.

Ive read most of what I have so I picked up Princes Of Ireland, supposed to be historical fiction which I also like. Trying to expand into some Irish literature. btw, I used to read SF&F too! But thats another life so just sticking to Alan Dean Foster for the moment, he has another out this July waiting on.

Love the scifi but gotta watch that topic of the first thread.

ps since everyone seems to know their authors, a while ago I picked up Shalimar the Clown by Salman Rushdie, been debating about it, any thoughts?

 

[didymus]

JimG,

That story was written after Roe V. Wade I’m pretty sure. It was written by Philip K. DI-CK and is anthologized in the book The Eye of the Sibyl.

It’s name is The Pre-Persons.

Catholig

Thanks for the information

Funny that it was PKD, he was one of the “New Wave” authors and a lot of his stories might be considered inappropriate though many carry a warning of where science might take us.